The Aspis Consortium Commander is in the Inner Sea NPC Codex. Here is the link to the stat block on Archives of Nethys:
It says it is a CR13 enemy. I really do not see why, though. Sure, triple digit hit points and multiple attacks and many feats, but the damages are low, and he would need a way to be able to use the sneak attack damage.
I'm seriously considering putting my group of six 2nd level characters against him. The fighter and barbarian can keep him tangled up, while the rogue flanks. The sorcerer and wizard can harry him and disrupt him, and the cleric can keep everyone in the party healed up. Sure, it would be a long combat, but I think my players would not have much problem with this enemy.
I think this enemy should be more like CR5 or CR6. Any thoughts?
What's with the extra levels of Aspis Agent?
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Shouldn't he be CR 12 because he has 13 character levels and heroic NPCs have a CR equal to their level minus one? That system is wonky at higher levels, but that goes for every NPC.
EDIT: Jeraa cleared that up.
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It says it is a CR13 enemy. I really do not see why, though. Sure, triple digit hit points and multiple attacks and many feats, but the damages are low, and he would need a way to be able to use the sneak attack damage.
His 13 class levels give him a CR of 12. NPCs from that section of the NPC Codex have PC level equipment, which gives a +1 CR boost, so CR 13.
Edit: I assumed the wrong NPC Codex. The reqular NPC Codex gives those NPCs the wealth boost. I don't see the Inner Sea NPC Codex saying the same thing, but it is probably true as well.
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After further looking, he doesn't have PC wealth. Not even close. He does have the correct amount for a 13th level heroic NPC, however. I'm not seeing anything then that would boost his CR above the normal level-1 it should be. So CR 12.
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doesn't using the epic array increase cr by 1? so that's were that cr increase is coming from
Yes and no. An NPC with only NPC class levels uses the Basic NPC array (13, 12, 11, 10, 9, 8) and has a CR equal to his level -2. An NPC with PC class levels uses the Heroic NPC array (15, 14, 13, 12, 10, 8) and has a CR equal to his level -1.
So basically yes, but that is already accounted for in the formula. The only other thing that would impact it would then be gear, but the NPC has appropriate gear for a level 13 NPC with PC class levels.
Any NPC or monster with PC class levels gets to use that array, but by itself it adds nothing. It is accounted for in the increased CR adding a PC level adds.
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Thank you everyone! I knew I could count on my fellow Pathfinders!
Then, I need advice. The players were wronged by the Aspis Consortium, and want to both exact revenge and gain some important information. They are in Magnimar, and I was going to use the Thief Guild Flipmat as the local Aspis stronghold. I planned in my head this epic battle were this Commander is the only occupant of the establishment at the time, and they fight this one guy all the way through the corridors, and then escape out through the sewers.
There are three reasons I want to do it this way:
1. Up until now, the players have been fighting large groups of small creatures, like kobolds and goblins. I want the players to have the experience of going up against one big bad guy.
2. This Commander is the lowest level Aspis agent that would have the specific information that they are looking for.
3. I want them to experience a huge win. Something to be proud of.
But, I would feel guilty about awarding 2nd level characters almost 5000 experience. That would immediately take them to 3rd level, and a good ways towards 4th level.
Is what I'm doing making sense, and would you come to the same conclusion, or would you do it differently?
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If the aspis consortium commander doesn't use his abilities...you are doing him a great disservice.
His ambush trap ability+craft (trap) would at least allow him to have a bunch of CR 10-12 mechanical traps laying around that he can trigger against people invading his HQ.
CR 10-12 mechanical traps are of course overkill on a low level party.
But the problem of not using his abilities, you are turning a silver rank agent of aspis consortium into essentially a pinata, essentially making them into a joke at the end of the day.
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So, now we know (more or less) why the Apsis Consortium Commander is CR 13.
As to your quandary, I'd suggest a compromise: you want your team to have a big win against a smaller, tougher force, but don't want a competent Aspis administrator caught completely by surprise.
Instead, why not have 2-4 lower level Aspis goons (either around level 4, or using this guy's stats with some behind-the-scenes negative levels) who had overheard (or one was told in confidence) some juicy information the PCs want to know. The four of them were too busy plotting to remember to set up all those CR 10 traps around the building, and the PCs might just have enough time to shake down these goons before their boss gets back.
Would that help?
As if the PC's would encounter him alone, and know him for what he is when they do.
He is a boss fight.
Not to mention the connections he has throughout the Inner Sea that would not take kindly to the interruption of their status quo.
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It may be worth checking this PFS Scenario out: #7-03 The Bronze House Reprisal. This scenario describes
Don’t put your 2nd level party up against this guy. No matter what his actual CR is he if he is played with anywhere near his potential he will slaughter a 2nd level party. He is also supposed to be a leader of a powerful group so should have plenty of minions and followers at his beck and call. He is a 13th level character and should be a major villain for the entire campaign not a minor encounter in the first chapter of the book. You would have to scale this character down so much for your party to have a chance that you might as well not bother.
Winning a fight that has been rigged in your favor is not something to be proud of and that is the only way that what you are planning is going to happen. A better idea would be to setup a situation where the players have to use stealth and guile to get what they want. Breaking into his chambers and stealing the information would be a better way to go. Maybe having one of the characters distracts him while the others are getting the information.
Another way to do it is to have them fight the commander’s minion not the commander himself. Create a less powerful foe and have him be guarding the commander’s chambers. This also leaves the commander alive to act as a continuing foe.
First round - take potion of barkskin and combat expertise - his AC is now 27 and he can't be flanked by a level 2 party due to uncanny dodge. A min/max 20 point buy greatsword barbarian level 2 with bull's strength without power attack and a masterwork weapon - can hit +12 to hit. This is at the far end of the scale in terms of what a level 2 character can accomplish. This would still require a 15 or better to hit - giving the min\maxed character a 25% chance to hit. More likely you won't have bull's strength and characters won't be 20 strength min/maxed half-orc barbarians at level 2 - expect only criticals to land, and for most of them to not confirm.
2nd round - he drinks his potion of fly. Hope your guys can fly or have ranged weapons - if they are all min/maxed to hit him in melee they won't be hitting him with ranged for sure. Remember he *can't be flanked* by a level 2 party so flank isn't helping at all with anything...
Tangled up... His CMD is +28 - in this situation - the level 2 guys won't be doing any 'tying up' without a crit.
He might not do much damage (assuming you ignore his traps he is supposed to have, or someone to flank with) but he's going to slaughter your level 2 players.... who at most are sitting at what... 25ish hit points or less? He can also attack twice a round don't forget - that +7 to hit is going to be just fine against the level 2 players 18-22 ish AC at max.
His average damage is 9 a round - figure he'll be taking a player out every other round (and he's not stupid - he's going for the casters first).
In terms of strict RAW, he should be CR 12. In terms of his actual power level, he seems pretty spot on for CR 8 benchmarks. His HP, saves, AC, and attack are all within norms for a CR 8 threat, and only his damage (presuming all attacks are sneak attacks) is out of range, hitting the CR 11 benchmark. However, his total dependence on sneak attacks to be effectual in combat tempers that advantage. Any combat-relevant special abilities he has are coming from feats and items, which generally don't factor into CR. So on the whole I'd say he should be CR 8 from a threat assessment perspective.
In any case, a CR 8 challenge is unreasonable for a 2nd level party.
Aspis Agent <-here's another Aspis NPC statted out as a CR4 that I would say is much more appropriate for your party if you throw in some low level mooks/mercenaries.
I would suggest that you are actually cheating your players by tossing out the Commander too soon. Let them circle around him and drag it out in a slow intermittent arc. In one of my games, the PCs formed their grudge list at 2nd level and spent the next 6 levels marking off names. They prob won't get a chance to directly confront one of their foes for another four levels. They love having an enemy to loathe.
I think most players would say that it's far more satisfying to finally take down an enemy that they've really grown to hate over an extended interval. Let them work for it. Maybe the Agent above is a bronze and the party has to figure out through various wild goose chases and shake downs who the real boss is.