Hello there!
I will be playing in a campaign that revolves around dark but high fantsy: The PC will arrive in a strange and dangerous world where flora and fauna seems to hunt them wherever they go. Winged beasts reign the sky, so flying might not be the go-to-option it usually is.
We will have to find out how to survive in this mysterious environment and how and why we actually got here.
Now I want to make a character who will be able to survive all those threats. Usually I like to play versatile characters which in Pathfinder means spellcasters. Thing is we got the following framework for character creation:
- Starting level 5
- PB 25
- One Fighter bonusfeat OR two traits, no traits otherwise
- if the character has a casterlevel the casterlevel cannot exceed 3/4 of the characters HD (So Wizard 3 Cavalier 2 is allowed, Sorcerer 4 Monk 1 isnt).
- Only core races but with an additional +2 to a stat that is not modified by the race adjustments
- 18.000 gp starting gold (!)
- No spellcasting that is necessarily bound to deities (Paladin)
- no pets, no leadership, no SA-summoning
- no gunpowder
- Allowed sources: CRB, APG and one more book of choice
Do you have some cool ideas on what to play there? I love spellcasting, so maybe a gish would be nice. The powerlevel of the game will probably kinda high, so I want to make good use of those rules. MAD-classes seem to be the way to go, maybe some multiclassing, but actually I just don't have a clear concept right now...
Thanks in advance,
Wasum :)
How do 6/9 casters work?
Investigator seems to be super versatile, from ACG.
Well all classes that give full castelevel (as 6/9 level casters do) need to multiclass so they do not exceed cl 3/4 hd...
So even as investigator I had to multiclass.
Unchained Monk 2/Sorcerer 3/Dragon Disciple 10/Eldritch Knight 5 would be my choice if you're looking at maintaining one straight caster class. 25 point buy makes up for your multiple attribute dependency.
Sorcerer 4/Oracle 4/Mystic Theurge 10 and a couple of levels in whatever could be another valid option.
Spirit Ranger (from APG). Caster level is ranger level -3 so you don't have to worry about multi-classing until level 12. Since no pets, spirit ranger increases your versatility, and you don't call upon the gods for your spells but the spirits of nature instead.
Since you know you will be facing primarily beasts you can select either animals or magical beasts as your +4 with the other being +2 (talk to GM about which is the primary enemy, along with the terrain you will be dealing with). Since this sounds like this will be outdoor adventuring, go with archery style.
For stat array, I'd go Human S: 16 D: 18 C: 14 I: 12 W: 14 Ch: 8, with the bonus fighter feat. Feats would be WF: Longbow, Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Rapid Shot, Deadly Aim, with your choice as your 5th level feat. Save a few thousand for scrolls and wands to increase your versatility even more.
Okay, so far I like all those ideas!
Dragon Disciple was the very first thing that came to my mind at some point actually - do you have an idea on how to build it? Why UnMonk as melee chassis? I thought about scaled fist before but that would need two additional sources so no chance... or crossblooded with empyreal for wisdom synergy?
I would appreciate some hints how to build this DD :)
I also like the MT idea, I'd just be afraid to be kinda ...soft in the beginning. I could imagin playing it as Empyreal Sorcerer/Cleric as well - just because domains and prepared casting could be worth it in addition to wisdom being the better stat to cast from. That would make a really, really versatile PC indeed, the PB might even allow wizard/cleric....
The spirit ranger didnt match my taste at all first until I looked it up and... I love divination, I wish I knew this archetype before! Honestly it would suit perfectly to the setting... the only thing is, Im afraid another player might want to play a ranger aready...
Thank you both so far, I'm still open to more ideas or more precise advice on how to build the three above!
Unchained Monk vs. Monk on a Dragon Disciple chassis? Two words: Scaled Fist. Add your Charisma to your Stunning Fist and Monk bonus feat DCs, AC, CMB and CMD.
Stats (25 Point Buy)
Str: 15
Dex: 14
Con: 14
Int: 8
Wis: 10
Cha: 16 +2 Racial
Add Steadfast Personality to offset dumping Wisdom and you're set.
Definitely grab Dragon Style at 1st Unchained Monk level as a free Monk feat. Your stats let you buy Dragon Ferocity at 5th so long as you spend 5 skill ranks on Acrobatics.
Osyluth Guile is a potentially interesting feat if you can afford it. Only works on one opponent at a time, but adding your Charisma bonus as a Dodge typed AC bonus can be useful. If you're going this direction, you'll likely want to pick up Crane Style to reduce the penalty for fighting defensively. Sadly this means you can't benefit from Dragon Style at the same time, but lets you pick between either bonus damage output or higher AC as a swift action.
Consider picking up Feral Combat Training to add your Claw attacks from your Bloodline to your flurry. Requires Weapon Focus as a prerequisite however, but adds two extra attacks in your full attack sequence. Of course, the claws are only available in rounds per day, so it might not be worth the investment.
One additional source, huh? Let's try Heroes of the Streets for the siegebreaker fighter. It gives you some things to do in combat besides hitting the enemy. It gives them in the first couple of levels too so you can use this as your 1/4 levels class while being a full caster for the other 3/4.
That full caster wants to be a divine caster so you can cast in the full plate armor that the fighter allows. An oracle sounds good, and the stone mystery adds in and out of combat tricks (the battle mystery is better in combat but offers little out of it).
For stats you can start with a 14 charisma because you'll be bashing things around or buffing more than casting spells with a save. Maybe (as a human),
Str 15 +1@L4 +2 race = 18
Dex 13
Con 16
Int 8
Wis 12
Cha 14
Revelations might go
HD 2/Oracle 1: Shard Explosion (to stop people 5' stepping away from you, besides a little damage)
HD 4/Oracle 3: Crystal Sight (for Earth Glide, also to see through walls)
HD 9/Oracle 7: Earth Glide (because swimming through the ground is fun)
HD 14/Oracle 11: Stone Stability (get Improved & Greater Trip at once ignoring prereqs)
As an oracle you want the traits option for fate's favored & one other. For feats since you're using combat maneuvers you'll be fairly constrained, especially since the siegebreaker fighter trades out the first few. Assuming fighter levels at 1, 5, 9 etc. something like
1: Power Attack
Human: Improved Overrun
3: Charge Through
5: Improved Bull Rush
7: Greater Bull Rush
9+: free! Maybe Extra Revelation to get clobbering strike as one of these?
Besides making sure to get Divine Favor there's no required spells for this character, though I would suggest Grace when you get 2nd level spells. Otherwise you can pick whatever spells amuse you.
If you do go Monk/Sorc/DD, while Unmonk is better than Coremonk, Scaled Fist is still compatable with Coremonk. Since you can only choose 1 additional resource, priority should go to Scaled Fist in this case.
@Monk/Sorc/DD:
With core monk I'm afraid to lose even more BAB... so actually I feel like UnMonk + crossblooded with empyreal wouldnt be that bad - especially since Steadfast Personality is nice but doesnt cover everything at all... on the other hand the core monk gains good will save so maybe this really is the way to go...
@Siegebreaker/Oracle:
This is a really cool concept - I love the flavour and the cool abilities offered by mysteries, stone sounds pretty awesome right now. I wish the Rage Prophet would suck less so I could also work around that PrC...
Now there is another rule adjustment that might influence how to build this PC which I didnt see until just now:
All Characters get Combat Stamina as bonus feat:
You gain a stamina pool with a maximum number of stamina points equal to (Levels in Full BAB Class)/2.
During combat, you can spend stamina points from this pool to perform a combat trick, the specific effects of which are dictated by a combat feat you possess. Spending stamina points in this way is not an action, but you can't do so if you are unconscious, fatigued, or exhausted. You can use as many combat tricks on the same action or attack as you like (as long as you have the stamina points to spend), but you can't use the same combat trick twice within its scope. For instance, if you have a combat trick that affects a single attack, you can't use that combat trick more than once on the same attack.
Now as this seems pretty powerful to me I'm not sure whether 3/4 BAB classes can make up for that... sadly the holy vindicator and eldritch knight will take about forever to come into play, otherwise those would be great PrCs...
Maybe you come up with some more ideas and advices, right now I have like 4 really interesting builds and dont know which one to prefer yet... :/
If you do go Monk/Sorc/DD, while Unmonk is better than Coremonk, Scaled Fist is still compatable with Coremonk. Since you can only choose 1 additional resource, priority should go to Scaled Fist in this case.
No it's not, Scaled Fist Archetype replaces the Unchained Monk Ki Power at 4th and 12th level. Core Monk instead has the Ki Pool class ability. They're not the same and aren't interchangeable.
Fortunately or unfortunately, you do not care about the combat stamina options for any of the feats I named. They are utterly forgettable.
Since you'd want at least 2 stamina to make that combat stamina house rule fly you'd be looking at going all in on a full BAB class, and still looking forward to level 10 when you get 5 stamina. It's for a totally different character than this.
Basically, any good combat trick costs at least 2 stamina points and often 5. With a pool with a max of 2 points you could build to make an attack do an extra d6 damage once per combat, or get +1-2 AC once per combat ... it'd be a minor benefit really even if you took all full BAB classes. Half level in full BAB classes isn't much, the standard rule is BAB + Con bonus for the pool.
Okay, yeah, that's true!
@JDLPF: Now Scaled Fist seems to be no option anymore, right? Should I switch to another class then? Or stick to UnMonk for the DD?
...somehow I feel this game is kind of meant for the Mystic Theurge...
You could go Mystic Theurge as a full caster in one class, then multiclass when the houserules force you to (instead of dabbling or alternating every other levels), then take the actual MT PrC. It's not going to be as weak during the low levels, given the houserules, as it normally is. Oracle/Sorcerer or Cleric/Wizard are both attractive options, especially with 25 point buy. Empyrean Sorcerer/Cleric might work too. Oracle is attractive because of the various armor revelations that can be used to avoid Arcane Spell Failure.
I think I've only seen one Mystic Theurge in play, and it was a one-shot 20th level session, and the main issue was "choice paralysis" because there were so many spells to choose from!
As another idea you could go for the Iron Caster. See Cartmanbeck's entry in The Guide to the Builds in the thread stickied at the top of this forum. Since you have no actual caster level, but the item mastery feats treat your BAB as their caster level, you could be the most powerful (if most limited) caster in the party. The direct opposite of the mystic theurge.
Haha, that is a great idea, sadly it requires two additional sources...
If you do go Monk/Sorc/DD, while Unmonk is better than Coremonk, Scaled Fist is still compatable with Coremonk. Since you can only choose 1 additional resource, priority should go to Scaled Fist in this case.No it's not, Scaled Fist Archetype replaces the Unchained Monk Ki Power at 4th and 12th level. Core Monk instead has the Ki Pool class ability. They're not the same and aren't interchangeable.
You'll have to reread the archetype.
For the Unmonk, it does indeed replace the Ki Powers @ 4th & 12th.
However,for the Coremonk, those same abilities replace Still Mind & Maneuver Training @ 3rd and Quivering Palm @ 15th.
Monk archetypes since Unchained explain what abilities are replaced for both Monks as well as what levels the new abilities are gained at.
Okay, yeah, that's true!
@JDLPF: Now Scaled Fist seems to be no option anymore, right? Should I switch to another class then? Or stick to UnMonk for the DD?
...somehow I feel this game is kind of meant for the Mystic Theurge...
Scaled Fist is still 100% a viable option. See my previous post as to why.
I myself am dipping 1 level Coremonk on my new Bloodrager and am applying the Hungry Ghost & Scaled Fist archetypes. If I didn't need HG for lvl 1 Punishing Kick, I'd do Unmonk, but I do so I can't.
Okay now with that DD build there is one thing I cant see:
When I take scaled fist I want to use dragon style because its awesome. But how do I use it to my advantage? Or more precisely: How will I manage to get an acceptable attack rotine? When I go for feral combat training I will only be able to make my claw attacks and every now and then a secondary bite, right? I coud also use claw/claw/bite as primary natural weapons but then couldnt apply dragon style.
Now when I reach higher levels, maybe even get FoTD - I will be able to either have a natural attack routine or just my claws adding dragon style. I dont see how to synthesize those two attack options.
Could maybe someone explain how this becomes and remains relevant with increasing levels?
If you go Feral Combat Training you treat your selected natural weapon as if it was a monk weapon in a flurry of blows, so you can't get the benefits of Dragon Style for these.
Once you're a high enough level, I doubt you'll have the chance to worry about your natural attack sequence tapering off. You'd do more damage with a Fireball than a full attack.
Overall, a Scaled Fist Dragon Disciple build's biggest advantage is that it's a hellishly tough nut to crack. Sorcerer gives you Mage Armor and Shield. Scaled Fist gives you Cha to AC. Dragon Disciple gives you Natural Armor.
Let's look at what your stats would be at 6th level.
AC: 10 base +4 armor (Mage Armor) +4 shield (Shield) +2 Dex +4 Cha +1 natural = 25, not counting increases to deflection, natural armor, Cha or Dex from items. A few extra items bumps this up to 29 without too much effort at 6th level. An AC of 28 at this level means an average CR enemy can only hit you on a natural 20 with its low attack.
Saves (Core Monk build): Fort +5/Ref +4/Will +7 base, add +2/+2/+4 from stat distribution and any resistance bonuses as well. At this level a save of +14 only should fail on a natural 1, and a save of +9 succeeds on a roll of 7 or higher on average. You're batting average for Fort and Reflex, and knocking it out of the park with Will.
What this all means is that you're gonna be a hard target for the enemy to shut down, not even counting extra mobility from Expeditious Retreat or Invisibility.
Unchained Monk 2/Sorcerer 3/Dragon Disciple 10/Eldritch Knight 5 would be my choice if you're looking at maintaining one straight caster class. 25 point buy makes up for your multiple attribute dependency.
I'm curious about how you meet the Martial Weapon Proficiency prerequisite for EK with this build.
No, I cannot just play Magus and yes, I can play those classes just without binding myself to a specific deity (as in the game will play on a mysterious world without connection to any kind of pantheon). I would just need to multiclass.
@JDLPF: ah, okay - so thats not really meant to be a gish but a caster who tries to deal with the games framework (I could also take scaled fist + sorcerer without dipping Dragon Disciple then but as the PrC offers full bloodline progression and good HD while keeping the cl low this wouldnt be same as good).
But then I probably wouldnt pick any melee-feats and focus on casting primary...
Ahhh - apparently there is another restriction I missed!
I can only pick content from the official PRD...
That leaves CRB + APG + 1 more source book from the PRD....
On one hand that ruins a lot of ideas collected here by now (goodbye scaled fist, siegebreaker and grenadier :( ), on the other hand that makes it easier to pick some build as a lot of stuff I thought about isnt an option anymore...
So right now that leaves me with the mystic theurge or some divine/martial mix... right?
What about the kineticist? Aether is pretty versatile.
What about the kineticist? Aether is pretty versatile.
As much as I love 'em (I have 3 in PFS), I still don't know if Kineticists are considered casters. If so, are they Arcane/Divine/Psychic or uncategorized?
Anyway, they're definitely fun!
Itgos B. Foryew my Oread/Kellid Aerokineticist who works at the Pathfinder Society Department of Magical Vials (PFSDMV) with a complete monotone
Qarin my Ifrit Swashbuckler/Bloodkineticist/Evangelist of Milani fights using the specfic magic weapon Enduring Bloom
Zannah Jadwiga Elvanna my Mesmerist/Telekineticist who wields a Two-Bladed Sword and uses the title of Darth
Good times...
Unchained Monk 2/Sorcerer 3/Dragon Disciple 10/Eldritch Knight 5 would be my choice if you're looking at maintaining one straight caster class. 25 point buy makes up for your multiple attribute dependency.
This works.
Sorcerer 4/Oracle 4/Mystic Theurge 10 and a couple of levels in whatever could be another valid option.
This might not work: 3/4 of 18th level is 13.5, and this character's caster level is 14/14.
Unchained Monk 2/Sorcerer 3/Dragon Disciple 10/Eldritch Knight 5 would be my choice if you're looking at maintaining one straight caster class. 25 point buy makes up for your multiple attribute dependency.This works.
It does? I still don't see where it gets proficiency with all martial weapons.
New plan. Druid as the caster, Ultimate Magic is your one book; you want the Shaping Focus feat at character level 7. You may be limited as a caster but you will be able to wild shape with the best of them. A ranger with the natural weapon style (& the guide archetype IMO) for the 1/4 class seems good. The menhir savant archetype helps your druid casting a little. The wolf domain looks good.
You'd start with ranger 2 / druid 3 which gives you 2nd level spells, BAB +4 and the first combat style feat. Assuming human again maybe
1: Power Attack
Human: Cleave
Ranger combat style: Aspect of the Beast (claws)
3: Weapon Focus (claws)
Wolf domain: Improved Trip
5: Cleaving Finish
7: Shaping Focus
9: Eldritch Claws
You claw people up, and from 7th level you can add more natural attacks to that. Eldritch Claws actually has a useful combat trick which just requires that you have 1+ stamina, not spending it, your claws are treated as cold iron for DR. You can trip enemies when you have other advantages - go with the Plant/growth subdomain if that doesn't appeal.
For something slightly different try a halfling.
1: Point Blank Shot
Ranger combat style: Precise Shot
3: Rapid Shot
5: Deadly Aim
7: Shaping Focus
9: Manyshot
The idea here is that you wild shape into an air elemental and use flight and its dex bonus to pincushion your enemies with arrows. Or just the dex bonus if there's something in the skies at the time. The Eagle domain, even if you don't get a familiar, would be useful, or the Desert domain if you prefer more defence.
Thanks for all those replies so far!
The druid ideas sound really good, do you think it might also be viable using unmonk instead of ranger for wis synergy? But probably missing out shaping focus means good wild shape comes online really late...
And the archer druid could be mixed with zen archer for even more synergy but keeping shaping focus... now this might be really interesting!
For the alchemist - I would like to dip another melee class than ranger probably - just flavourwise... maybe fighter?
I spent some time making up a built as well and wanted to know what you think - here's my human eldritch knight build:
Swashbuckler 1/Mutagenic Mauler 1/Blade Adept Arcanist 6/Eldritch Knight
Attributes at lvl 5: STR: 7 DEX: 22 CON: 14 INT: 21 WIS: 12 CHA: 7
Feats|class abilities:
1 Weapon Finesse, Weapon Focus, Slashing Grace, Extra Panache|Opportune Parry and Riposte Deed
2 - | Dex-Mutagen
3 Combat Reflexes | Bond Weapon (Blade Adept)
4 - | -
5 Extra Reservoir| Black Blade (Blade Adept)
6 - | -
7 Extra Exploit (Spellstrike) | Dimensional Slide Exploit
8 - | -
9 Imp Ini | free bonus feat (eldritch knight)
10 - | -
etc.
Activating mutagen this leaves me with 26 dex and ~+16 to hit at level 5, dealing around 1d4 +10 points of damage which i hope to boost further using spellstrike starting at level 7.
AC with nothing but mage armor is around 25, saves should be fine as well.
The huge to hit will provide good chances to use my deed to block and answer incoming attacks. The Swordmaster's Flair (Blue Scarf)
even gives me reach for more combat reflexes synergy.
I wish I could have picked inspired blade but I wouldnt have access to fencing grace so this sadly wasnt an option.
What do you think, is this build viable? I should always be close to the 3/4 HD cl hardcap, reaching BAB and CL 7 at level 10.
The point of multiclassing a druid there is to use shaping focus. Otherwise you don't get anything good in wild shape until character level 8 at least, and huge forms come in at character level 11. I get antsy about gratification delayed that long, dunno about you. Also I like those animal/terrain domains (or the growth subdomain) and all those come from UM.
I guess you could go with core monk even for the melee version - losing one point of BAB for a feat (net; losing the ranger one), +3 will save, evasion and the wis bonus to AC is acceptable.
On your eldritch knight - yes, looks good. It would suffer in comparison to a real magus, but of course that's not an option here.
It does? I still don't see where it gets proficiency with all martial weapons.Unchained Monk 2/Sorcerer 3/Dragon Disciple 10/Eldritch Knight 5 would be my choice if you're looking at maintaining one straight caster class. 25 point buy makes up for your multiple attribute dependency.This works.
Good catch. I was just checking on CL at 3/4 level at all times.
Okay, that druid build is still totally in, I just prefer the monk as chassis I guess.
Now I dont really have an idea what other players want to build, so druid/monk, stone oracle/melee or that EK-builds are my options right now to reakt to whatever they come up with. The alchemist is kinda out as I happen to play one in an online session next week.
And then there also is the mystic theurge....
You really helped me so far and I'm still glad to get some feedback (especially on the eldritch knight) and/or more ideas, thanks!
Wasum :)