Hey, guys. I'm relatively new to Pathfinder and this community. I've learned a lot from you all ready.
To get to the point, my friends and I are rolling characters for a new campaign:
-25 point buy
-starting at lvl 1
-using any official sources
Personality and Motivation
-Lawful (believes and follows a code of honor and works well with others to achieve his goals.
-Evil (acts selfishly when he can without discovery, sees others as disposable)
-Seeks personal power through money, influence, magical power
The vision for my character's abilities is as follows:
-Lawful Evil (I've already approved this with the GM)
-Can keep his true identity (alignment, goals, personality) a secret from NPC's and PC's alike.
-Doesn't necessarily need to be the party face, but would help to manipulate events
-Has the ability to cast without detection so he can manipulate environmental or social events while the party is interacting with them (will be avoiding most direct PC manipulation)
--Examples: mentally influencing NPC's, starting a fire, making illusions (all without other PC knowledge
-Relatively competent Blaster/utility in combat
-Ability to gather intel on others (including PC's through mind reading, surveillance)
The GM is okay with these shenanigans, as long as it doesn't destabilize the party. To prevent an meta info about my character being revealed to the other characters, any of these shenanigans would be texted to my GM in secret. My intent is to play a puppet master, not a "steal from the players and be a general jerk."
I was thinking sorcerer because I like the flavor, but I'm open to suggestions.
Any advice on class, magic items, feats, archetypes, traits, spells, and Attribute allocations would be appreciated. Thanks!
Do you need to be a full caster? Because the easiest way to build this guy that I can see would be something like a Vigilante (Warlock). This would give you two "Identities," each with a different alignment. Take the Conceal Spell feat, which allows you to bluff/disguise your way out of taking blame for spells (even one with clear visual effects.)
Dual Identities: make your Vigilante ID that the players travel with True Neutral or Lawful Neutral, and your Social ID ("true ID") Lawful Evil. +20 Disguise bonus to keep folks convinced that these are different people.
So for Feats:
- Deceitful (+2 Bluff/Disguise)
- Conceal Spell
Social Talent
Either:
- Renown for a small area, which at 3rd level will allow you to gain the benefits of an Innocence Spell while in the area.
- Social Grace for a nice +4 Circumstance bonus on either Bluff or Disguise
Traits:
- Clever Wordplay: treat Disguise as an Intelligence based skill.
- Keeper of the Veil: +1 Trait bonus to Bluff/Disguise
Spellcasting: Advances as a Magus w/ WIzard spells.
Magic Bolt: Basically, you can consistently create magic based attacks, making you dangerous even without a weapon.
Going Onward:
2nd Lvl: you can take the Tattoo Chamber ability, which allows you to hide an object inside of arm (such as a wand, a vial of poison, a lockpick, a scroll, dagger, or any other such item).
8th Lvl: if you're still hiding your true plans at 8th level, you can create a duplicate of your Social ID that lasts 4 hours.
Unlike many would-be con artists, I have earned my titles. I am the Body Snatcher. The Mind Bender. The Master of Curses. Know my power!
I can be your inspiration, your muse. You only need to submit.
Don't listen to her! What could a senile old hag possibly teach you? You want to be a master of lies? Then let me bend your ear for a bit!
Skilled deceivers both, but neither have the tactical acumen to really use their skills to their fullest. Come with me, and I will make you one of the wealthiest rules in the world.
Could someone give me a quick rundown of Cunning Caster vs Conceal spell. Im getting conflicting reports on different threads.
From what Ive learned:
Cunning Caster is an opposed check (Bluff or Disguise) vs Perception, Sense Motive, or Spellcraft. But most people say it doesnt disguise the "magic manifestations", only that YOU were the one that cast the spell.
Conceal spell apparently hides these magical manifestations AND your casting with a DC of 15 + Bluff ranks + CHA vs Per/SenseMotive/Spellcraft.
I'd prefer hiding the fact that a spell was cast completely. Pls help with understanding the complete way to be sneaky.
Also, what is the check to recognize these "magic manifestations?" Can and does everyone get a chance at recognizing them?
Thanks
They're not full casters but you're basically describing a Mesmerist. +psychic magic should be easier to conceal.
Otherwise I'd be inclined to go with an oracle or a sorc because of the Charisma.
If you are willing to be a Partial Caster the vizier Mesmerist might be exactly what you want, it makes it appear that someone else is casting your spells; Otherwise I would go Psychic with conceal spell
Under normal circumstances, spell Manifestations are those lights you see around the spellcasters in official PF art, Most everyone knows what they are, but to know which spell you cast requires a spellcraft check. Conceal spell/Improved Conceal spell hide these manifestations/ your somatic/verbal components if you have them. Spellsong dose it too, but only for bards. From my reading, Cunning caster dose the same thing as Conceal spell, just better; but your GM might rule differently.
For a manipulator, you want reasonably extensive Knowledge skills so you know what you're doing (particularly K:local and K:nobility if you're dealing mostly with society instead of monsters). Also, you really want to max out Perception, Sense Motive, and the diplomatic skills, plus maybe Disguise.
Enchanter wizard would be a good pick (just remember Int > Cha/Wis > Dex/Con >>>> Str) but maybe some other class might work. You want a high Int for lots of skill points, since most full casters don't have huge numbers of them.
Bard would almost certainly work, even if they're a caster-6 instead of a caster-9. Plus being a bard might subconsciously get your friends thinking "he's a support character to buff us" which would help your passing unnoticed.
A familiar would be very handy (bonus Alertness feat plus a spying creature) but isn't necessary.
Psychic or Psychic bloodline sorcerer seems best
Could someone give me a quick rundown of Cunning Caster vs Conceal spell. Im getting conflicting reports on different threads.
Conceal Spell VS Cunning Caster
Please note that you cannot use Disguise with Cunning Caster. It's Bluff only.
Whichever feat you use, if your check succeeds (and/or the observers' check(s) fails), they don't know you cast the spell. It conceals your spell components (verbal, somatic, material, etc.) as well as the spell manifestations generated by spellcasting in general (an annoying unwritten rule that exists only in this official FAQ).
Hope that helps!
Psychic or Psychic bloodline sorcerer seems best
Perhaps, if he took Cunning Caster as well.
Psychic bloodline sorcerer would be the best match - the psychic class isn't really a competent blaster.
If you can afford the feats then Subtle Enchantments is another feat to aim for. It reduces the risk of being caught magically influencing people.
There's plenty of fun spells for this sort of thing out there. Aura of the Unremarkable springs to mind.
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Hey, guys. I'm relatively new to Pathfinder and this community. I've learned a lot from you all ready.
To get to the point, my friends and I are rolling characters for a new campaign:
-25 point buy
-starting at lvl 1
-using any official sourcesPersonality and Motivation
-Lawful (believes and follows a code of honor and works well with others to achieve his goals.
-Evil (acts selfishly when he can without discovery, sees others as disposable)
-Seeks personal power through money, influence, magical powerThe vision for my character's abilities is as follows:
-Lawful Evil (I've already approved this with the GM)
-Can keep his true identity (alignment, goals, personality) a secret from NPC's and PC's alike.
-Doesn't necessarily need to be the party face, but would help to manipulate events
-Has the ability to cast without detection so he can manipulate environmental or social events while the party is interacting with them (will be avoiding most direct PC manipulation)
--Examples: mentally influencing NPC's, starting a fire, making illusions (all without other PC knowledge
-Relatively competent Blaster/utility in combat
-Ability to gather intel on others (including PC's through mind reading, surveillance)The GM is okay with these shenanigans, as long as it doesn't destabilize the party. To prevent an meta info about my character being revealed to the other characters, any of these shenanigans would be texted to my GM in secret. My intent is to play a puppet master, not a "steal from the players and be a general jerk."
I was thinking sorcerer because I like the flavor, but I'm open to suggestions.
Any advice on class, magic items, feats, archetypes, traits, spells, and Attribute allocations would be appreciated. Thanks!
The only truly reliable way to conceal your spellcasting is to play a Bard and use the Spellsong feat.
If you want a caster I'd definitely aggree with FamiliarMask. Bards are only half spellcasters but they are awesome for what you want to get.
Perform (oratory) is a good option to conceal spellcasting as giving a speech is kinda subtle, and it works better than other options for concealing spells.
You'll also have access to most mind affecting spells... and Glibness. Glibness is awesome. It has the advantage that it only increases your skills, so no saving throws, no spells casted in front of other people, just a Bluff roll with a ridiculously high modifier.
Also have in mind that even if you conceal your effects someone who makes their saving throw against mind affecting will know there is someone trying to do something to them. That might raise some alarms.
Total concealment of the spell would be using Silent Spell, Still Spell, and Eschew Materials. Of course, that costs +2 spell levels so that's for mid-career.
A Rakshasa bloodline sorcerer would also work extremely well.
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Total concealment of the spell would be using Silent Spell, Still Spell, and Eschew Materials. Of course, that costs +2 spell levels so that's for mid-career.
being a psychic caster does this for free.
Total concealment of the spell would be using Silent Spell, Still Spell, and Eschew Materials. Of course, that costs +2 spell levels so that's for mid-career.
I thought that even like that, in PF spells have obvious manifestations that would reveal that you are casting something anyway.
Total concealment of the spell would be using Silent Spell, Still Spell, and Eschew Materials. Of course, that costs +2 spell levels so that's for mid-career.I thought that even like that, in PF spells have obvious manifestations that would reveal that you are casting something anyway.
According to the FAQ, they do. It is not clearly spelled out (or even implied) anywhere else, however, so a lot of GMs choose to ignore the FAQ.
The Spellcraft skill is not clear as to what it is about the spell you are observing. Before the FAQ many players and GMs (and game developers!) interpreted it as referring to the spell's components (verbal, somatic, material, etc.).
Paizo has since come out and said that, that is not the case, but rather that there is some sort of previously undefined observable manifestation occurring even before the spell triggers--despite the fact that this completely invalidates or hinders several of their own published encounters, adventure scenarios, monster abilities, etc. And it certainly wasn't the way it worked in past editions.
No, Paizo changed the way it works. It wasn't just a clarification.
I'd disagree because by that logic spellcraft would never work against a good 75% of monsters because they all have SLAs which by definition have no components to them. People have rolled spellcraft to ID SLAs for ages, and I really doubt it was the dev's intent to have all of them be mystery casts from the offset (except when it would be advantageous to the critter in question, Paizo is nothing if not fickle when it comes to having their cake and eating it)
Spell-like abilities aren't even mentioned in the Spellcraft skill and the rules for spell-like abilities (as defined by the Bestiaries) make no mention of them being identifiable via Spellcraft, so as written, you shouldn't be able to identify them.
Make no mistake, Paizo changed the rules so that they could better sell their new psychic classes. If they really were just trying to clarify things, they would have done so years ago, rather than waiting for the eve of their new cash cow.
The magic rules cover SLAs.I'd disagree because by that logic spellcraft would never work against a good 75% of monsters because they all have SLAs which by definition have no components to them. People have rolled spellcraft to ID SLAs for ages, and I really doubt it was the dev's intent to have all of them be mystery casts from the offset (except when it would be advantageous to the critter in question, Paizo is nothing if not fickle when it comes to having their cake and eating it)Spell-like abilities aren't even mentioned in the Spellcraft skill and the rules for spell-like abilities (as defined by the Bestiaries) make no mention of them being identifiable via Spellcraft, so as written, you shouldn't be able to identify them.
Usually, a spell-like ability works just like the spell of that name. A spell-like ability has no verbal, somatic, or material component, nor does it require a focus. The user activates it mentally. Armor never affects a spell-like ability’s use, even if the ability resembles an arcane spell with a somatic component.
It counts just like a spell unless otherwise noted. The only ways they are noted to differ (for our purposes) are above.
Identifying a spell as it is being cast requires no action, but you must be able to clearly see the spell as it is being cast, and this incurs the same penalties as a Perception skill check due to distance, poor conditions, and other factors.
It says see the spell, not the components, so a SLA is treated exactly like a spell. If components were the important factor you couldn't identify a V only spell (unless maybe you had lipreading) - you're required to see the spell, not hear it. So what are you seeing, if not manifestations?
Though they do work similarly in many respects, a spell-like ability is no more a spell than the sun is the moon. Spellcraft ONLY references spells.
Many other rules the whole game over that reference both do so by saying "spells and spell-like abilities" not just "spells."
You guys aren't wrong. It works exactly as you say. But it's not supported in the RAW, and it wasn't always like that. Paizo created a paradigm shift.
Psychic bloodline sorcerer would be the best match - the psychic class isn't really a competent blaster.
If you can afford the feats then Subtle Enchantments is another feat to aim for. It reduces the risk of being caught magically influencing people.
There's plenty of fun spells for this sort of thing out there. Aura of the Unremarkable springs to mind.
I mentioned psychic class because they get telekinesis a spell level early. Its not the typical fireball aoe nuke build but it can certainly decimate a single target per round. Also psychic gets several other good force and psychic damage spells
For meeting the other requirements it gets psychic casting, the best mind reading in the game, and of course most all intrigue spells he would want
Their both good options. It really depends on if the OP wants to be Int or Cha based
Wow, thanks guys for all your input!
Ive spoken to my GM about concealed casting and we will be ignoring the FAQ about manifestations, making feats like Cunning Caster and Concealed Spell unnecessary.
Still, I'm thinking about taking Subtle Enchantment.
Looks like its between the Psychic and the Psychic Bloodline Sorcerer.
The Psychic class looks fun, but i was really looking forward to taking the False Priest archetype for sorcerer and pretending I was a cleric the whole time, both in and out of the game.
Any suggestions on magic items and feats to increase the effectiveness of the build (casting enchantment, illusion spells, using Bluff)?
Also, any recommendations for spells (both general utility and specific to a master puppeteer)?
The false priest archetype really hurts a psychic sorcerer. They like that 9th level bloodline ability, especially in combo with id insinuation. The replacement's good, but it still hurts.
Persistent Spell helps keep lower spells relevant - this matters a lot as a sorcerer. Logical Spell should be your first bonus sorc. feat as sorcerers aren't especially resistant to fear etc.
On spells - your initial attack spell will be sleep if you're going for Subtle Enchantments. I expect charm person will be wanted later too. You'll probably want misdirection or nondetection at some point. Note the shadow spells later on for general purpose spells -
shadow enchantment, conjuration, evocation. Besides detect thoughts you might like find fault among divination spells.
Pages of spell knowledge or a ring of spell knowledge can help, many of the spells you want will be very specific.
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Another path to consider would be a Cleric with the Evangelist archetype, a domain such as Charm or Trickery, and the Spellsong feat. That's a full caster with plenty of manipulative spells, insanely good buffing, and a way to hide spellcasting that compares favorably to Conceal Spell or Cunning Caster.
The false priest archetype really hurts a psychic sorcerer. They like that 9th level bloodline ability, especially in combo with id insinuation. The replacement's good, but it still hurts.
Also, I realized that with the False Priest archetype, Eschew Materials is replaced, so even if I had the Psychic Bloodline Arcana, I would either still need to pick up Eschew Materials, or take Cunning Caster to mask the use of the False Focus.
After further research, I've narrowed some of my favorite bloodlines down to Arcane, Psychic, and Serpentine. What do you all think of these with my character concept?
How good/bad would Cross-blooded be with any combination of Arcane, Psychic, and Serpentine?
Wow, thanks guys for all your input!
Ive spoken to my GM about concealed casting and we will be ignoring the FAQ about manifestations, making feats like Cunning Caster and Concealed Spell unnecessary.
I disagree with this - while ignoring the manifestation FAQ you still have to deal with material verbal and somatic components - you can take feats for each of these but they can raise the spell level and makes it hard to use at level 1.
A single feat to do all the above without making you use metamagic (especially if the manifestations are gone) seems like a deal of a feat to me.
Wow, thanks guys for all your input!
Ive spoken to my GM about concealed casting and we will be ignoring the FAQ about manifestations, making feats like Cunning Caster and Concealed Spell unnecessary.I disagree with this - while ignoring the manifestation FAQ you still have to deal with material verbal and somatic components - you can take feats for each of these but they can raise the spell level and makes it hard to use at level 1.
A single feat to do all the above without making you use metamagic (especially if the manifestations are gone) seems like a deal of a feat to me.
Sorry, that was in reference to the Psychic bloodline.
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The loss of spells known in crossblooded is fairly crippling, With enchantments especially you find the spells are so specific that you want 2-3 to cover all aspects of a single idea/role. The -2 will save from that archetype & the way failing will saves tends to stop a psychic caster in their tracks wouldn't be good ether.
If you did use crossblooded anyway the arcane bloodline gives you an actually useful level 1 power to replace the psychic bloodline's one, and a tempting level 3 power. Serpentine on the other hand is undeniably cooler but less practical IMO.
Agreed with avr. The worst part of Crossblooded is the lack of spells known. It basically sets you another level behind wizard in terms of spell level. The penalty to will saves also hurts a psychic particularly. For this particular combination of psychic + arcane bloodlines, I think it can work.
Lv1 Arcane Power, Lv3 Psychic Power, Lv9 Psychic power, Lv15 Arcane power
Bonus Feat Pool: Improved initiative, combat casting, Spell Focus, Focused/Heighten Spell, Quicken Spell
The 3rd level power helps mitigate the lowered will save. 9th level power and Focused Spell mitigates lack of higher level spells known. Neither weakness is truly covered but you are improved across the board in every other area.
Serpentine, while interesting, I don't see how it would improve your character.
Do you have any interest in playing a gnome? They have some good racial illusion support. Also do you have any interest in Shadow spells? Shadow Enchantment spells are an interesting option if you are
For enchantment there is a series of 3 metamagic rods that make targets of a particular usually immune type of enemy vulnerable.
Spells
Lv1 Silent Image, Charm Person, Color Spray/Sleep, Auditory Hallucination, Memory Lapse
Lv2 Invisibility, Mirror Image
Lv3 Puzzle Box, Suggestion, Shadow Enchantment
Lv4 Dimension Door, Illusionary Wall, Charm Monster/Lesser Geas, Fool's Teleport, Aura of the Unremarkable
Lv5 Possession, Charm Person Mass
Lv6 Programmed Image, Claim Identity Greater, Dream Reality
Another path to consider would be a Cleric with the Evangelist archetype, a domain such as Charm or Trickery, and the Spellsong feat. That's a full caster with plenty of manipulative spells, insanely good buffing, and a way to hide spellcasting that compares favorably to Conceal Spell or Cunning Caster.
As written, Spellsong only works with Bard spells. Evangelists qualify for the feat, but don't cast Bard spells, so it doesn't do them any good.
If you DM would allow it to work with Cleric spells, then this is a great option.