Which feats would you recommend for a level 15 melee druid? Concentrating on wild shape form for damage and plant shape form occasionally for battlefield control. Preferably looking to not multi class, straight vanilla style.
Is this the guy with a t-rex grappler animal companion or something else?
Is this the guy with a t-rex grappler animal companion or something else?
Another, looking for a non grappler build for a friend.
Do you have lunge?
Never under estimate the value of being able to attack from a further distance. it ads a lot of tactical advantages.
While animal based wild shaping is not very well known for its reach, you at least have some when you get to huge, and lots of great plant shapes have very, very long reach.
Adding another 5' to that for your full attacks means you can attack the enemy, but anything that is medium sized (or large and has short reach) will not be able to breeze past your reach with a 5' step. They will have to move 10'- enough to draw an AoO and prevent a full attack.
Additionally, pushing assault builds on top of lunge. This feat lets you trade in power attack damage in order to push an enemy back 5'. This could be enough to entirely reset a reach encounter, which can allow you to get more AoOs. Note- this feat has a limit in that it only affects creatures up to your size... but this is a druid. You will be able to push back just about anything.
Overall-tell us what you have feat wise, so we can cross off nice general use stuff. Or are you building from scratch?
I'd need to know more specifics.
My Druidzilla build calls for levels in Warpriest, so Martial Versatility for Weapon Focus and Weapon Specialization, building from Unarmed Strikes. and 2 levels each in Brawler and Fighter.
I like the Giant Octopus, but those Tentacles are Secondary Natural Weapons, so Multiattack is a must. I like Hamatula Strike so that I can Grapple and Constrict with the Bite, Unarmed Strike, and Gore too. (if I can get a Helm of the Mammoth Lord!) I take a level in White Haired Witch so I also get a Hair Attack. Hamatula Strike requires Improved Grapple, so might as well get Greater Grapple, too.
I could go on, if you like.
sounds effective, is grappling the best way to deal the damage with a druid?
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Do you have lunge?
Never under estimate the value of being able to attack from a further distance. it ads a lot of tactical advantages.
While animal based wild shaping is not very well known for its reach, you at least have some when you get to huge, and lots of great plant shapes have very, very long reach.
Adding another 5' to that for your full attacks means you can attack the enemy, but anything that is medium sized (or large and has short reach) will not be able to breeze past your reach with a 5' step. They will have to move 10'- enough to draw an AoO and prevent a full attack.
Additionally, pushing assault builds on top of lunge. This feat lets you trade in power attack damage in order to push an enemy back 5'. This could be enough to entirely reset a reach encounter, which can allow you to get more AoOs. Note- this feat has a limit in that it only affects creatures up to your size... but this is a druid. You will be able to push back just about anything.
Overall-tell us what you have feat wise, so we can cross off nice general use stuff. Or are you building from scratch?
Is Lunge really that good? It doesn't increase AOO threat range at all though. Yes this is starting a build from scratch.
Is Lunge really that good? It doesn't increase AOO threat range at all though. Yes this is starting a build from scratch.Do you have lunge?
Never under estimate the value of being able to attack from a further distance. it ads a lot of tactical advantages.
While animal based wild shaping is not very well known for its reach, you at least have some when you get to huge, and lots of great plant shapes have very, very long reach.
Adding another 5' to that for your full attacks means you can attack the enemy, but anything that is medium sized (or large and has short reach) will not be able to breeze past your reach with a 5' step. They will have to move 10'- enough to draw an AoO and prevent a full attack.
Additionally, pushing assault builds on top of lunge. This feat lets you trade in power attack damage in order to push an enemy back 5'. This could be enough to entirely reset a reach encounter, which can allow you to get more AoOs. Note- this feat has a limit in that it only affects creatures up to your size... but this is a druid. You will be able to push back just about anything.
Overall-tell us what you have feat wise, so we can cross off nice general use stuff. Or are you building from scratch?
It doesn't increase AoO threat range, but if you are hiuge (15' reach) and attack from 20' away you get to full attack and get an AoO in the same round. Stack pushing assault to get them back to the 20' mark again and repeat. It also denies full attacks from anything that isn't pouncing/pseudopouncing.
It doesn't increase AoO threat range, but if you are hiuge (15' reach) and attack from 20' away you get to full attack and get an AoO in the same round. Stack pushing assault to get them back to the 20' mark again and repeat. It also denies full attacks from anything that isn't pouncing/pseudopouncing.Is Lunge really that good? It doesn't increase AOO threat range at all though. Yes this is starting a build from scratch.Do you have lunge?
Never under estimate the value of being able to attack from a further distance. it ads a lot of tactical advantages.
While animal based wild shaping is not very well known for its reach, you at least have some when you get to huge, and lots of great plant shapes have very, very long reach.
Adding another 5' to that for your full attacks means you can attack the enemy, but anything that is medium sized (or large and has short reach) will not be able to breeze past your reach with a 5' step. They will have to move 10'- enough to draw an AoO and prevent a full attack.
Additionally, pushing assault builds on top of lunge. This feat lets you trade in power attack damage in order to push an enemy back 5'. This could be enough to entirely reset a reach encounter, which can allow you to get more AoOs. Note- this feat has a limit in that it only affects creatures up to your size... but this is a druid. You will be able to push back just about anything.
Overall-tell us what you have feat wise, so we can cross off nice general use stuff. Or are you building from scratch?
Sounds really effective!
Note that your reach can vary wildly with your shape.
Most animals are of the long body type, which means they get shorter reach. But I do believe that most of teh carnivorous dinosaurs (including the ever popular allosaurous, with its pounce) get the 'tall' body type, which has the same reach as a humanoid with the same size.
Anyway, lunge is mostly a tool for making it easier to do reach stuff while still attacking.
Without stuff like lunge, you might be in a position where attacking first puts your enemy close enough to take a 5' step to reach you. That would avoid AoOs, and preserve their full attack. With lunge.... you can attack first, and do so from far enough away to keep your options open with reach and Aoos.
Reach is a really good style if you want to get more damage and control the battlefield. Your damage (and maybe other stuff, like trip) can make you a major threat, and enemies may waste time walking around your area of control instead of fighting your directly. Wasting your enemies' time by jsut standing there? Sounds like a great deal to me! Every move action they waste is a turn where they can't full attack your party wizard.
Basics of a reach style: combat reflexes, power attack, lunge, pushing assault.
Advanced reach: tripping feats- you should be good at theses, since you can get creatures with the trip ability on their attacks.
Note that your reach can vary wildly with your shape.
Most animals are of the long body type, which means they get shorter reach. But I do believe that most of teh carnivorous dinosaurs (including the ever popular allosaurous, with its pounce) get the 'tall' body type, which has the same reach as a humanoid with the same size.
Anyway, lunge is mostly a tool for making it easier to do reach stuff while still attacking.
Without stuff like lunge, you might be in a position where attacking first puts your enemy close enough to take a 5' step to reach you. That would avoid AoOs, and preserve their full attack. With lunge.... you can attack first, and do so from far enough away to keep your options open with reach and Aoos.
Reach is a really good style if you want to get more damage and control the battlefield. Your damage (and maybe other stuff, like trip) can make you a major threat, and enemies may waste time walking around your area of control instead of fighting your directly. Wasting your enemies' time by jsut standing there? Sounds like a great deal to me! Every move action they waste is a turn where they can't full attack your party wizard.
Basics of a reach style: combat reflexes, power attack, lunge, pushing assault.
Advanced reach: tripping feats- you should be good at theses, since you can get creatures with the trip ability on their attacks.
nice! how does tripping work though? Do you either chosoe to deal damage or trip? or can you do both with a single attack?
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Normally, you can do a trip attempt in place of your attack (such as your AoO), and it is an either/or (ie- no damage, and you just knock them down; a downed opponent has to waste time to stand, and get -4 AC to melee attacks).
Some maneuvers specifically need a standard action, but trip can just replace an attack.
But animals with the 'trip' special ability on one of their natural attacks can do a trip attempt as a free action when that attack lands (exmaple- wolves have trip on their bite; a wolf tries to drag you down after they bite you). I am not sure if you can use that during an AoO (since it does use a free action), but it is still nice during your full attack.
There are other maneuver based ability like this, such as 'grab' for grappling. As another note- such abilities tend to give a +4 to the maneuver as well. It is meant to make up for the fact that animals can't take maneuver feats with their low intelligence (no, that panda does not know kungfu); the abilities let them make up for the bonuses and other problems.
But.... as a druid with human level intelligence, you could take maneuver feats and double dip those bonuses. So you can get the +4 from the ability, the +4 from the feats, and you also get size and strength bonuses from wildshape... Special abilities like these are something to consider when you pick your animal shapes.
Final note on feats: Dirty fighting is a relatively new feat that allows you to skip a lot of the normal prerequisites for maneuver feats. It counts as combat expertise, as well as 13 int when it comes to maneuver feats. Read up on all its effects, since it is a nice choice for anyone that wants to try out maneuvers.
nice! how does tripping work though? Do you either chosoe to deal damage or trip? or can you do both with a single attack?Note that your reach can vary wildly with your shape.
Most animals are of the long body type, which means they get shorter reach. But I do believe that most of teh carnivorous dinosaurs (including the ever popular allosaurous, with its pounce) get the 'tall' body type, which has the same reach as a humanoid with the same size.
Anyway, lunge is mostly a tool for making it easier to do reach stuff while still attacking.
Without stuff like lunge, you might be in a position where attacking first puts your enemy close enough to take a 5' step to reach you. That would avoid AoOs, and preserve their full attack. With lunge.... you can attack first, and do so from far enough away to keep your options open with reach and Aoos.
Reach is a really good style if you want to get more damage and control the battlefield. Your damage (and maybe other stuff, like trip) can make you a major threat, and enemies may waste time walking around your area of control instead of fighting your directly. Wasting your enemies' time by jsut standing there? Sounds like a great deal to me! Every move action they waste is a turn where they can't full attack your party wizard.
Basics of a reach style: combat reflexes, power attack, lunge, pushing assault.
Advanced reach: tripping feats- you should be good at theses, since you can get creatures with the trip ability on their attacks.
For all combat maneuvers you roll a CMB v. the enemy's CMD to apply the condition, and it doesn't usually do damage it just debuffs. And attempting to do so provokes an attack of opportunity from your target (and only your target) unless you have improved (insert maneuver) or another ability that says it doesn't provoke. For disarm, trip, and sunder you can do so in place of a weapon attack (natural or manufactured) and you add any bonuses to the CMB that your weapon gives to attack rolls (such as weapon focus or enhancement bonuses). This applies even if your weapon doesn't have the trip property. Some animals have a trip special ability which lets you perform a trip combat maneuver check as a free action without provoking an AoO if you hit with the natural attack and do damage through any DR (letting you do damage and trip in the same attack).
Other important things to note about tripping include the fact that if you fail by 10 or more you fall prone (or can drop a weapon if you use a weapon with the trip property). This is not the case if you have a natural attack with the trip special feature. Also, you get a size bonus on combat maneuver checks if you are larger than medium. +1 for large and +2 for huge.
For a druid using reach trip shenanigans, Megatherium is a huge form that has 2 claw attacks, trip, and a 10' reach, and Stegosaurus is a huge animal with 15' reach and trip, but only 1 attack. Alternatively, huge earth elemental form can use weapons (as you are humanoid) which might give more attacks in a round, as well as other defensive benefits (DR and immunity to crit/sneak attack) and 15' reach. Or Quickwood plant shape gives you 60' reach natural attacks but it doesn't give the trip special attack and it is incredibly slow so you will want greater longstrider up all the time.
Also, if your chosen form does not happen to have trip on natural attacks, Aspect of the Wolf might be a suitable replacement for some fights.
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Depending on how much time you expect to have for buffing, the Vine Strike spell is quite nice, given you an extra 1d6 damage and a chance to entangle the target, making them easier to hit in the future for you and your allies.
By the way, is 15 the starting level for the character, or what you expect him to reach eventually? Depending on the build the character might have some pretty crappy levels to get through on the way there.
Lemeres and Paradozen would it be better to trip then instead of deal damage in your guys opinion if I can't do it as a free action on top of a normal attack.
sounds effective, is grappling the best way to deal the damage with a druid?I'd need to know more specifics.
My Druidzilla build calls for levels in Warpriest, so Martial Versatility for Weapon Focus and Weapon Specialization, building from Unarmed Strikes. and 2 levels each in Brawler and Fighter.
I like the Giant Octopus, but those Tentacles are Secondary Natural Weapons, so Multiattack is a must. I like Hamatula Strike so that I can Grapple and Constrict with the Bite, Unarmed Strike, and Gore too. (if I can get a Helm of the Mammoth Lord!) I take a level in White Haired Witch so I also get a Hair Attack. Hamatula Strike requires Improved Grapple, so might as well get Greater Grapple, too.
I could go on, if you like.
Well, when you increase in size, your Combat Maneuver Bonus goes up directly, and so does your Strength. The Giant Octopus is Size Large, which only grants a +2 CMB, but it has Grab, which gives you a +4 on Grapple checks. I envision this as a catch-and-release grappler, who is using Grappling to inflict extra damage with extra attacks. With all 8 Tentacles having Grab and Constrict, that's 16 attacks! The White Hair also gets a free Grapple, so that's 2 more. The Bite, Gore, and Unarmed Strikes make that 4 more, and if you take Hamatula Strike, that's 4 more! So 26 that's attacks/round!
To increase the damage/attack, I'd take levels in Warpriest and apply Sacred Weapon Damage to all those attacks. With say 5 levels in Warpriest, that's 1d8 for size Medium, Giant Octopi are large so 2d6. If you Buff yourself with the Strong Jaw Spell, a level 3 Druid Spell, your Natural Attacks inflict damage as if you were 2 sizes bigger, so 4d6 base damage/attack. I haven't sorted out how you'd get other bonuses for Strength, Barbarian Rage, but there are ways, and multiplied by all those attacks, your DPR will be obscene.
It this isn't the best way to deal lots of damage with a druid, it's pretty darn near.
Scott this is insane! Is this really doable 26 attacks a round? What's your build could you give me an outline of the feats and how to go about doing this with the multiclassing etc. This sounds very complicated lol also it sounds like you like to grab and release with each attack thus giving you constrict damage on all 8 attacks from the octopus. That's kind of borderline abuse? Lol but yes legal. This is the type of stuff GMs can easily say we only allow one grab and release per round
Lemeres and Paradozen would it be better to trip then instead of deal damage in your guys opinion if I can't do it as a free action on top of a normal attack.
Well, during your full attack, you will likely not have to make the choice- again, there are plenty of wild shape options that give you abilities that let you do both.
But for AoOs, you might have to make the choice. If you think the trip will work, then it is the better choice- it leaves enemies slow, vulnerable to melee attacks, and they have to waste a move action to stand up. If you get a trip from your AoO, then you probably tripped something that was trying to either charge at you or your squishy wizard ally. The trip would stop all movement and leave the creature laying there with no ability to reach out and attack.
The problem with trip is that it gets less reliable at later levels. It if fine against humanoid opponents, such as casters or warriors. But in later levels, you will face larger creatures (they get bonuses to their checks for their size and strength) and the creatures might just have bodies that resist trips (creatures with more than 2 legs get bonuses to defend against trip- spider have 8 legs and are practically impossible to trip; creatures without legs can't be tripped; creatures that are flying can't be tripped).
But that is why I like using reach- even if your trip tricks do not work.... you can still smack enemies around with your attacks.
Lemeres and Paradozen would it be better to trip then instead of deal damage in your guys opinion if I can't do it on as a free action on top of a normal attack.
Better is hard to say, but I personally would prefer to trip enemies with Attacks of Opportunity and do damage with full attacks. Either you get another attack of opportunity when they stand up (with a +4 bonus to the attack) or your entire attack routine on your next turn gets that attack bonus. Also I might favor tripping if a lot of allies are threatening the enemy (especially with greater trip) as the free AoO/attack bonus spread across the party will probably do more damage than one attack.
Also something I forgot to mention is that flying creatures and a lot of creatures without legs (basically every ooze and snakelike monster) are completely immune to being tripped, and creatures with a lot of legs get a big bonus to CMD (IRC its a +2 per leg above 2). Also creatures 2 sizes larger than you cannot be tripped by you So, maybe use that as a metric for if you should trip or not.
Tripping isn't a great option at level 15. Too many things are immune or can teleport away.
I'l leave the fancy multiclassing to Scott, he's got a gift for it. Assuming a plains druid 15 with the panther domain, my feat recommendations:
Natural Spell: naturally.
Power Attack: since he's in melee.
Planar Wild Shape: A buff to wild shape; why not?
Quicken Spell. Possible with any spell up to 4th level which includes a lot of druid buffs.
Improved Unarmed Strike & Wolf Style. How to make AoOs actually do some control.
Martial Focus (natural weapons) & Difficult Swings: More martial BFC, and +1 damage/attack.
I like quick wild shape because it lets you wildshape as a swift action, useful when you have unexpected fights.
I guess I should say why for the non-feat choices I presented above.
Druid 15: So you can cast 8th level spells. Druid spells of this level include some no-save stuff like Frightful Aspect which prevents melee full attacks from anything not immune to fear, Reverse Gravity for battlefield control, or quickened dispel magic against the many enemies who may have annoying buffs or battlefield control spells up. Two uses of wild shape can cover you for a whole day.
Plains Druid: Adds speed, stealth, charge bonuses and evasion. You should be able to use at least one of those. The -2 level to wild shape is an insignificant loss at this level, all the good stuff arrives by level 12.
Panther domain: several nice things, the best is the Nine Lives buff spell. For 15 hours you get 9 uses of potentially life-saving abilities.
Huge earth elemental ftw. Wild stone plate gets you all the AC you need. A dorn-dergar gets you reach. Earth glide is awesome, tremorsense is beautiful. Add in deeper darkness for spice. Goblin cleaver is particularly amazing if you are Huge. You get immunity to crits, etc etc etc...
Normally, you can do a trip attempt in place of your attack (such as your AoO), and it is an either/or (ie- no damage, and you just knock them down; a downed opponent has to waste time to stand, and get -4 AC to melee attacks).
Some maneuvers specifically need a standard action, but trip can just replace an attack.
But animals with the 'trip' special ability on one of their natural attacks can do a trip attempt as a free action when that attack lands (exmaple- wolves have trip on their bite; a wolf tries to drag you down after they bite you). I am not sure if you can use that during an AoO (since it does use a free action), but it is still nice during your full attack.
There are other maneuver based ability like this, such as 'grab' for grappling. As another note- such abilities tend to give a +4 to the maneuver as well. It is meant to make up for the fact that animals can't take maneuver feats with their low intelligence (no, that panda does not know kungfu); the abilities let them make up for the bonuses and other problems.
But.... as a druid with human level intelligence, you could take maneuver feats and double dip those bonuses. So you can get the +4 from the ability, the +4 from the feats, and you also get size and strength bonuses from wildshape... Special abilities like these are something to consider when you pick your animal shapes.
Final note on feats: Dirty fighting is a relatively new feat that allows you to skip a lot of the normal prerequisites for maneuver feats. It counts as combat expertise, as well as 13 int when it comes to maneuver feats. Read up on all its effects, since it is a nice choice for anyone that wants to try out maneuvers.
Hmm if animals with the trip feature can attack and in addition have the ability to make a trip roll, can fighters with a polearm with a trip feature attached to it do damage and then free action trip them?
Hmm if animals with the trip feature can attack and in addition have the ability to make a trip roll, can fighters with a polearm with a trip feature attached to it do damage and then free action trip them?
Unfortunately, no. It mostly just gives a bonus, and a slight option for when a trip fails. Apparently, a really bad roll can result in you getting tripped instead- but with a trip weapon, you could just let go of the weapon instead of getting dragged with it.
Also, I think you might get to add weapon enhancement to the check? I forget the specifics, but it revolves around how some maneuvers can be performed with a weapon (trip, sunder, and disarm). I'll leave it to more experienced posters to bring up the FAQs about all this.
Say you get 4 attacks per round in your form, you choose to trip though rather than doing damage, do you just get 1 trip attempt or do you get 4 trip attempts one for each attack? how does that work?
Another question, if you are large sized but with a reach of 30 ft, do you get only the large sized threat zone or do you get the full 30 ft of threat zone for AOO etc.
30ft out in any direction from any of your squares.
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/combat/space-reach-threatened-area-te mplates/
Oh my, so with a Quickwood you would get 60ft in all directions? Is that the most in the game? That equals a collosal tall creatures max reach
The absolute max involves a colossal creature's reach, a sarissa or a whip, lunge and the longarm spell IIRC, but 60' is pretty good.
Say you get 4 attacks per round in your form, you choose to trip though rather than doing damage, do you just get 1 trip attempt or do you get 4 trip attempts one for each attack? how does that work?
Can anyone help here?
As I recall, you can change each of your attacks into a combat maneuver.
Say you get 4 attacks per round in your form, you choose to trip though rather than doing damage, do you just get 1 trip attempt or do you get 4 trip attempts one for each attack? how does that work?Can anyone help here?
You can decide with each attack if you want to trip or not.
For example, let's say you shapoeshift into a bear (3 natural attacks). You can decide to trip with your bite, and if you succeed you can a make normal claw attacks. If you fail, you can decide to trip with your next claw attack or to make a normal claw attack. And the same is true for your third claw attack.
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trip is an attack replacement so you can trip 4 times or trip and attack or whatever you want. It has the key word "as an attack" or "instead of an attack" or something like that.
Trip, sunder, and disarm are the three most common (maybe only) maneuvers that are attack replacements.
Stuff like grapple which says, "as a standard" can't be done more than once since you only have one standard.
Oh my, so with a Quickwood you would get 60ft in all directions? Is that the most in the game? That equals a collosal tall creatures max reach30ft out in any direction from any of your squares.
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/combat/space-reach-threatened-area-te mplates/
yeeeeep.... it is one of the best choices for plant shape.
Also remember- quickwoods are huge in size (15' across... I think; there seems to be a type on its space)). So that means you get 60' to your left, 60' to your right, and 15' in the middle. You have a circle 135' across for threatening.
Or "hahahaha. Why even bother counting at that point?" levels of reach.
The only thing that sucks about it is that it is troublesome to use as a 'default shape', which you wear all the time. It only has 10 move, which might make it hard to move around the countryside.
Oh my, so with a Quickwood you would get 60ft in all directions? Is that the most in the game? That equals a collosal tall creatures max reach30ft out in any direction from any of your squares.
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/combat/space-reach-threatened-area-te mplates/
yeeeeep.... it is one of the best choices for plant shape.
Also remember- quickwoods are huge in size (15' across... I think; there seems to be a type on its space)). So that means you get 60' to your left, 60' to your right, and 15' in the middle. You have a circle 135' across for threatening.
Or "hahahaha. Why even bother counting at that point?" levels of reach.
The only thing that sucks about it is that it is troublesome to use as a 'default shape', which you wear all the time. It only has 10 move, which might make it hard to move around the countryside.
Greater longstrider for the win :)
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keep in mind that strongjaw is a 4th level druid spell so you do not get it til level 7.
I assume you are getting constrict on your grapples from the octopus form? Some GMs may limit this to the tentacles themselves since that is where the ability originates rather than any Grab attempt.
Assuming Pathfinder Society the build runs into a big problem as multiattack is not a legal feat choice, barring high level rangers.
Keep in mind that the gore attack comes from the helmet itself, so you have to assume you are taking the helmet off and putting it on the octopus...
Also once you make the unarmed strikes all your primary natural weapons become secondary.
I did not think warpriest of a Deity with unarmed strike as their favored weapon received weapon focus, I believe they get improved unarmed strike instead.
White haired witch may not stack with your build. The ability gives you a natural attack with your hair but you lose your natural attacks when you wild shape. If you had the hex it would work but it doesn't with the White haired witch ability.
I've always wondered if it's possible to make a combat druid from an archetype skinshaper?
Sounds like an octopus with 8 tentacles would be decent at tripping too, a lot of opportunities and decent reach. If only at the lower levels.
I'd need to know more specifics.
My Druidzilla build calls for levels in Warpriest, so Martial Versatility for Weapon Focus and Weapon Specialization, building from Unarmed Strikes. and 2 levels each in Brawler and Fighter.
I like the Giant Octopus, but those Tentacles are Secondary Natural Weapons, so Multiattack is a must. I like Hamatula Strike so that I can Grapple and Constrict with the Bite, Unarmed Strike, and Gore too. (if I can get a Helm of the Mammoth Lord!) I take a level in White Haired Witch so I also get a Hair Attack. Hamatula Strike requires Improved Grapple, so might as well get Greater Grapple, too.
I could go on, if you like.
Scott, if your just vanilla though is the best form for dealing damage at large size just a dire tiger and at huge size an allosaurus? Can the octopus really compete with those two creatures? The secondary damage really hurts the octo
Scott, if your just vanilla though is the best form for dealing damage at large size just a dire tiger and at huge size an allosaurus? Can the octopus really compete with those two creatures? The secondary damage really hurts the octoI'd need to know more specifics.
My Druidzilla build calls for levels in Warpriest, so Martial Versatility for Weapon Focus and Weapon Specialization, building from Unarmed Strikes. and 2 levels each in Brawler and Fighter.
I like the Giant Octopus, but those Tentacles are Secondary Natural Weapons, so Multiattack is a must. I like Hamatula Strike so that I can Grapple and Constrict with the Bite, Unarmed Strike, and Gore too. (if I can get a Helm of the Mammoth Lord!) I take a level in White Haired Witch so I also get a Hair Attack. Hamatula Strike requires Improved Grapple, so might as well get Greater Grapple, too.
I could go on, if you like.
Dire Tiger is an exciting option, especially with the idea that Megaraptor may not be PFS legal.
I'm not sure what "just vanilla" means.
My instinct is that the many, many extra attacks you get from Giant Octopus far outweigh the Secondary Natural Attack penalty since with the Multiattack Feat the Secondary Natural Attack Penalty is only -2. But honestly, best guess.
What I am offering is a character building strategy, and as Clausewitz says, "in strategy, there is no victory." For instance, what does that -2 really do to your DPR? The answer depends upon the actual average armor class of the monsters you face, and the number of them that have DR, and myriad other things that may or may not come into play can seriously complicate the transition from a character concept and an actual character.
Sorry by vanilla I meant a standard druid no archetype and no multi class. Ya the -2 to hit isn't a big deal at all, but the half damage from STR mod is a killer. How can one make up for that loss? I see the dire tiger still doing slightly more damage, but it does have to be in close quarters with the enemy which sucks. Having that nice octo reach is great.
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Unarmed strikes are not and are never considered to be natural attacks, they can simply be modified or enhanced by effects that target them as per the prd:
An unarmed strike is always considered a light weapon. Therefore, you can use the Weapon Finesse feat to apply your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier to attack rolls with an unarmed strike. Unarmed strikes do not count as natural weapons (see Combat). The damage from an unarmed strike is considered weapon damage for the purposes of effects that give you a bonus on weapon damage rolls.
I agree with you on constrict, RAW i think you are right.
I stand corrected on the Warpriest, I didn't realize they just received Weapon Focus for free and not tied to their deity's weapon.
As for the hair the problem is this line, "At 1st level, a white-haired witch gains the ability to use her hair as a weapon. This functions as a primary natural attack with a reach of 5 feet.
Therefore the ability you gain is a primary natural attack. According to the polymorph rules
"While under the effects of a polymorph spell, you lose all extraordinary and supernatural abilities that depend on your original form (such as keen senses, scent, and darkvision), as well as any natural attacks and movement types possessed by your original form.
This is where the Prehensile Hair Hex would be better, since that cause your hair to become a natural attack, even if your form does not have hair. This is why I have seen a number of druid build dip Barbarian and grab Animal Fury, Lesser Beast Totem or Lesser Fiend Totem, since these ability allow you to grow a natural weapon rather than possess one.
This also came up in the Songbird of Doom thread regarding using Aspect of the Beast to get a claw attack on your bird form. It doesn't work because you gain a claw attack and you lose it when you polymorph.
One other note for putting on armor, there is a Vanity called the Squire in PFS that I believe carries and helps you put on armor. Reasonable to use in home games too.