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The case in favor: It makes sense because the metal studs are what provide virtually all the protection, the leather component merely being soft backing.
The case against: Assuming more-or-less equal access to all forms of light armor, there's no point to wearing studded leather if it is treated as metal.
Normal, boiled leather armor offers the advantages of a higher Dexterity limit, and of not being affected by the various nasty monsters and spells and whatnot that destroy/exploit metal equipment.
Want a higher base AC than the piddly +2 boiled leather has to offer? Get wooden armor. It has a much lower Dexterity limit, but still plenty for most characters, and is likewise immune to anti-metal dangers.
Want a higher Dexterity limit than wooden armor AND higher base armor than boiled leather? Of course you do...but UNLESS studded leather can offer the same haven from anti-metal dangers, it is STRICTLY inferior in every other way to a mithril chain shirt.
It's one thing if you're playing a home game of the sort where you make do with whatever you find, but in Pathfinder Society or any other game that offers convenient access to most armors, studded leather has nothing to offer once you can afford a mithril shirt (which is usually by the time you're level 2, if not a bit sooner).
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Pardon? I'm having trouble interpreting which direction your 'no' and your 'yes' are meant to go in.it is not metal enough to benefit from replacing the metal with lets say mithril for the mithril benefits but it has enough metal that druids cannot wear it
So it DOES still have merit because it's treated as NOT metal with regards to things like rust monsters, shocking grasp, chill/heat/warp/repel metal, magnetism effects, etc?
The Mithral Chain Shirt is 44x more expensive than studded leather, I'm not going to be too torn up about it being better.
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But no black-and-white standard-issue answer? I'm asking about this with Organized Play in mind.
The Mithral Chain Shirt is 44x more expensive than studded leather, I'm not going to be too torn up about it being better.
That matters little once you get past low levels and either armor's going to be enchanted - the question is, is it worth wearing studded leather at all once one's reached higher levels?
Not very helpful, but in Neverwinter Nights games druids can't equip studded leather. So as Lady-J said it's leather for game mechanics with the exception of the druid prohibition.
Also, unless you start to house rule AC for every armor (*) by the time the party reach 'wealthy' levels half the armors on the list fall in oblivion.
(*) Leather armor: AC 2 / +1vs blunt / -1 piercing
But that's hell of a work, and I don't think it will even pay off the effort. Otherwise Paizo guys would've done it already.
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Studded leather shouldn't exist. It's an invention of fantasy that came from an incomplete understanding of brigantine or a coat of plates design. It's not a real world armor because the leather is too soft to provide protection on its own, but a series of non connected studs are too far apart to provide reliable protection vs impaling or slashing attacks, and would actually make blunt attacks worse because the metal would be driven into your flesh instead of deflecting the force of the blow.
A better version of leather armor for all purposes is leather lamellar. It's an armor that actually existed, and provides better protection than leather or studded leather. It rivals a chan shirt out of the box, and if made of darkleaf it's better atmuch cheaper cost than mithral.
Ignore studded leather, and use lamellar instead.
Contributor
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Not very helpful, but in Neverwinter Nights games druids can't equip studded leather. So as Lady-J said it's leather for game mechanics with the exception of the druid prohibition.
Not just Neverwinter Nights.
Druids are proficient with light and medium armor but are prohibited from wearing metal armor; thus, they may wear only padded, leather, or hide armor.
Hmm I like the lamellar. That might be my new mental image for armor at that slot.
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Page 118 of the gamemastery guide lists studded armor as being able to be made out of special metals [mithral or adamantine].
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Studded leather shouldn't exist. It's an invention of fantasy that came from an incomplete understanding of brigantine or a coat of plates design. It's not a real world armor because the leather is too soft to provide protection on its own, but a series of non connected studs are too far apart to provide reliable protection vs impaling or slashing attacks, and would actually make blunt attacks worse because the metal would be driven into your flesh instead of deflecting the force of the blow.
A better version of leather armor for all purposes is leather lamellar. It's an armor that actually existed, and provides better protection than leather or studded leather. It rivals a chan shirt out of the box, and if made of darkleaf it's better atmuch cheaper cost than mithral.
Ignore studded leather, and use lamellar instead.
I hadn't thought about leather lamellar and darkleaf - Sounds good!
I didn't know studded leather was so wholly historically inaccurate, either.
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Page 118 of the gamemastery guide lists studded armor as being able to be made out of special metals [mithral or adamantine].
An item made from darkleaf cloth weighs half as much as the same item made from leather, furs, or hides. Items not primarily constructed of leather, fur, or hide are not meaningfully affected by being partially made of darkleaf cloth. As such, padded armor, leather armor, studded leather armor, and hide armor can be made out of darkleaf cloth (although other types of armor made of leather or hide might be possible). Because darkleaf cloth remains flexible, it cannot be used to construct rigid items such as shields or metal armors.
So apparently it's both metal and non-metal armor... as well as a floor wax and a dessert topping!
I wonder what happens if you replace the leather with darkleaf and the studs with some other special material?
Actually studded leather is from someone seeing an augmented leather armor, essentially a bezainted, brigandine or a light lamellar armor, built with the discs or plates sandwiched between an outer leather layer and an inner padded layer. From the outside, what you see is the studs that are holding the hidden discs or plates in place. It makes it a little less obvious where the augmentations are. It also has a cleaner look to it. The augments were sewn on in some cases, instead of being held in place by studs, and could be of metal, horn, bone, treated leather or any other stiff material to spread the impacts over a wider area, and sometimes deflect a penetrating attack.
The studs are not the extra protection, they are what is holding the extra protection in place. There is also no reason the augmenting bits can't be on the outside. The effect is pretty much the same.
So, yes, a Druid could wear a "studded" armor, as long as it's augments aren't metal, and aren't being held in place by metal.
Studded leather is poorly named, but it is describing a real thing, that is not adaquately covered by other existing armors. It has been used in D&D from the beginning, so just recognize what it means, and don't worry too much about the name, it is just a catch-all tag, and sounds better than a more accurate "Augmented Leather".
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Studded leather could feasibly exist as armor if you took small plate (about an inch by inch) and stuck them on the inside of the leather and attached them with studs. You could also make Cuir Boillie small leather plates and attach them to the outside and make it a workable armor. Both would look like the picture of studded leather. The small plates on the inside version did exist historically...but to call that light armor is almost laughable. The thing weights more than most plate armor. The leather version has no example in history, but from me playing around with it using real swords, it does make for a pretty decent armor. It won't stop a full on straight up blow, but against anything else, it is pretty protective. And it is flexible and pretty light as well.
Game rules wise...yeah it's both metal and non metal according to two different books. So the way I see it, it's metal if you are using metal plates and non mental of you use leather plates. Players choice of how their studded leather is made.
Also confusing is that even brigantines and lamellars covered wide ranges of how densely "packed" the plates were, balancing weight, flexibility and resources against levels o protection. Lumping all these light augmented leather armors under the innocuous term, "studded leather" is fine by me, and you get the added benefit of watching the historical reenactors jump up and down, kick puppies and other entertaining spectacles when you use it. Win Win. ^-^
Someone mentioned something interesting though about nonmetal studs for Studded Leather. If you could make say hardwood studs then a Druid could wear Studded Leather. I know of some woods that are tough as iron so why not. I'd allow it.You don't need to allow it. It specifically already exists. It is called leaf armor. Costs 500gp and is always masterwork.
There is Bulette Armor too [Dungeon Denizens Revisited]. "A suit of bulette leather armor weighs 20 pounds, and its appearance matches the coloration of the landshark from which it was made. It sells for 50 gp, but has the same statistics as studded leather." So same stats but all leather.
If you are considering studded leather, you're probably better off with parade armor (same cost, armor bonus, max. Dex, etc., but gives a bonus to Diplomacy and Intimidate vs. some encounters) or wooden (5 gp cheaper, same armor bonus; less max. Dex and a little heavier, but no penalty to Swim checks).
A better version of leather armor for all purposes is leather lamellar. It's an armor that actually existed, and provides better protection than leather or studded leather. It rivals a chain shirt out of the box, and if made of darkleaf it's better at much cheaper cost than mithral.
Technically, there should be no such thing as darkleaf cloth lamellar. "Lamellar is a type of armor in which small plates of various types of materials are strung together in parallel rows using fine cord. Lamellar plates can be constructed from lacquered leather..." The protection of leather lamellar comes from plates of lacquered leather (the lacquer increasing the rigidity and strength of the leather, much like a hard varnish or polyurethane finish to protect wooden furniture, floors, etc.).
Fuzzy-Wuzzy included the relevant text for darkleaf cloth: "Because darkleaf cloth remains flexible, it cannot be used to construct rigid items such as shields or metal armors."
Essentially, using darkleaf cloth instead of leather makes each piece more flexible and easier to wear, then each piece is lacquered to make it hard again and you're back where you started.
Dragonchess Player: Looking at the piecemeal armor rules, it goes into more detail into how the armor is constructed.
"Leather Arm Armor Piece: This arm armor piece consists of sleeves of hard-boiled leather that are carefully sewn together."
"Leather Lamellar Arm Armor Piece: Similar to a leather arm armor piece, a leather lamellar arm armor piece is constructed of a number of discrete hard-boiled leather plates laced together in parallel rows."
Both leather armor and Leather Lamellar armor use "hard-boiled leather" , leather is listed as under acceptable armor and piecemeal rules call the armors "similar". As such, I don't think the "cannot be used to construct rigid items" is meant to JUST to disqualify "shields or metal armors".
Didn't graystone answer that? - I haven't double checked though!
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Didn't graystone answer that? - I haven't double checked though!
Right, I missed that; there's my answer. Good.
Ignore studded leather, and use lamellar instead.
Especially horn lamellar armor if you do not have a high DEX.
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Actually, at the moment I'm thinking of characters who DO have high Dexterity, with the intention of raising it higher still.
Mithril studded leather would allow a maximum Dexterity bonus of +7, which combined with a base armor bonus of +3, is awfully good!
Spidersilk bodysuit is +3 AC and +6 dex for 850gp [masterwork for no ACP] and if you have a drow’s weapon familiarity the dex goes to +8. Nimble mithral chain shirt is +3AC and +8 dex for 1075gp more than the studded leather mirthal.
With the ADVENTURER’S ARMORY 2, you don't have to worry if someone is going to allow mithral studded leather.
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bracers of armor are +8 with no max dex
Yes, but the price for +8 bracers is kind of beyond the pale.
Spidersilk bodysuit is +3 AC and +6 dex for 850gp [masterwork for no ACP] and if you have a drow’s weapon familiarity the dex goes to +8.
Yes, but you have to be a Drow (or maybe Drow-descendant) for the extra Dexterity allowance; not gonna happen in Pathfinder Society.
Nimble mithral chain shirt is +3AC and +8 dex for 1075gp more than the studded leather mirthal.
That's a possibility, but it does cost twice as much - and if I think my character's Dexterity modifier has any hope of reaching +8, I could about as soon hope it could get higher still, and commission nimble mithral studded leather for a maximum Dexterity modifier of +9!
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Yes, but you have to be a Drow for that; not gonna a happen in Pathfinder Society.
Didn't see anything about PFS so I just answered as normal. Myself, I could care less what PFS does. ;)
#2 also note, you could make THIS nimble for a base max dex of +8 without any special materials for non-drow.
That's a possibility, but it does cost twice as much - and if I think my character's Dexterity modifier has any hope of reaching +8, I could about as soon hope it could get higher still, and commission nimble mithral studded leather for a maximum Dexterity modifier of +9!
nimble mithral studded leather is going to have the same total AC than nimble chain shirt: The studded leather has 1 less AC and 1 higher max dex. IMO the studded leather is worse because you can take a hit in dex from drain, damage and your dex can fall below max but you'll still have your base armor AC. So at best, you save 75gp to have either the same or less AC...
As to cost... SO? By the time you have to worry about max dex of +8, the extra 1000gp is money well spent.
Kalindlara: that's WAY too easy!!! ;)
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Have you considered mithril parade armor? It seems like it would solve a lot of your uncertainty. ^_^
I'm sorry, I must be discombobulated after glancing at that confusing political thread that just popped up - what would the advantage of parade armor be other than a circumstantial skill bonus?
As to cost... SO? By the time you have to worry about max dex of +8, the extra 1000gp is money well spent.
Am I to understand that you can tack these new augmentations on AFTER the suit's already been made/purchased? That would make it all easier....
Mithral parade armor is +8 max Dex +3 AC for the same price as Mithral studded leather
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Have you considered mithril parade armor? It seems like it would solve a lot of your uncertainty. ^_^I'm sorry, I must be discombobulated after glancing at that confusing political thread that just popped up - what would the advantage of parade armor be other than a circumstantial skill bonus?
Am I to understand that you can tack these new augmentations on AFTER the suit's already been made/purchased? That would make it all easier....As to cost... SO? By the time you have to worry about max dex of +8, the extra 1000gp is money well spent.
I actually hit the +8 DEX kind of early...
Elf with a 20, Alchemist DEX Mutagen up's it to 24, Reduce Person extract adds a size bump to the DEX and I'm at the +8 at 1st level... (and a +9 to hit with my bombs!)
Have you considered mithril parade armor? It seems like it would solve a lot of your uncertainty. ^_^I'm sorry, I must be discombobulated after glancing at that confusing political thread that just popped up - what would the advantage of parade armor be other than a circumstantial skill bonus?
Am I to understand that you can tack these new augmentations on AFTER the suit's already been made/purchased? That would make it all easier....As to cost... SO? By the time you have to worry about max dex of +8, the extra 1000gp is money well spent.
I actually hit the +8 DEX kind of early...
Elf with a 20, Alchemist DEX Mutagen up's it to 24, Reduce Person extract adds a size bump to the DEX and I'm at the +8 at 1st level... (and a +9 to hit with my bombs!)
LOL I wasn't counting minute buffs as a valid reason for needing +8. IMO, hitting max dex for 1 min/day isn't something "you have to worry about".