Is there any other ways o get dex to attack with a long sword? I've been fiddling with trying to Make a character who uses a long sword with elven battle style. It frankly getting int to damage while stil using strength to hit just feels dumb to do. If nothing else I can use a rapier but I hate rapiers for whatever reason and two handing the long sword would be ideal. I really wanted to go for a sort of "weapon monk" idea, or an unarmored swordsman.
THIS IS FOR PFS as an FYI. ;)
So far the build is as follows.
Race: kitsune with the "keen kitsune" and "skilled" racial options (as a dedicated rogue i'm hoping all this will help my skill ranks withdrawal XD )
Stats:
STR: 8 (10-2)
DEX: 16(14+2)
CON: 12 8th and 12th level points here
INT: 17 (15+2) 4th level point goes here
WIS: 16
Cha: 7
1st level- Courser: d10 hit die is good for first level, weapon finesse with some wiggle room if I need it is good. Dodge as a bonus feat is good. Lastly gaining 5 feet of extra movement speed for simply not using my one point of panache is good cuz gotta go fast.
2nd and 3rd level- master of many styles monk/monk of the sacred mountain: good saves, two style feats that I don't need to meet the prerequisites for to get elven battle focus, toughness helps with being less squishy and natural armor is always nice particularly with this.
Now from here on is where I'm unsure on class progression. Going to fourth level in monk is the ideal here because that'll net me fun monk stuff like the much needed +1 ac bonus cuz I'm gonna need all I can get, another prerequisites free style feat which could be super helpful even if I don't know what else to take, and not being able to tripped or moved if I stay in the same square also sounds great. However I don't want to go farther yet because I'd like to not lose anymore bab just yet as to not delay getting into duelist anymore than I had to. Also I'll be taking four levels of duelist then returning to monk progression.
So after these levels I've mentioned I'd need to take a two level dip into another martial class, I could continue in swashbuckler but I wouldn't get much out of it due to having 7 charisma. Charmed life would be literally pointless as would be more deeds. Nimble would be good but I think it's not worth it. So there were a few options I thought could be good.
2 levels of ilsurian archer- since I'd also get int to damage with bows snagging bullseye shot and precise shot could make me decent switch hitter should the need for a ranged fighter show itself. No one ever seems to have those where I play as well.
2 levels of slayer/ranger other than ilsurian archer- all the other stuff is nice and could use the ranger combat style to grab power attack.
2 levels of fighter- can't really go wrong there
1 level of snake bite brawler/1 fighter level: most of my saves would be stupid beyond belief with all the multiclassing, an extra feat and a sneak attack die cuz it couldn't hurt.
As far as feats from level progression I have no real idea of what to get, I'm not super up to snuff onnfeats but I'd have to grab mobility to get into duelist and that's all I've really got other than just grabbing simple stuff like weapon focus.
To answer the title question...
Yes. Slashing Grace is the only PFS-Legal, non-enchantment method I know of to apply Weapon Finesse to and get Dex-To-Damage with a Longsword.
To answer the title question...
Yes. Slashing Grace is the only PFS-Legal, non-enchantment method I know of to apply Weapon Finesse to and get Dex-To-Damage with a Longsword.
Well I don't need to dex to damage but I'll take that as it's the only way to do either.
If you own ISWG, you could take EWP (Aldori Dueling Saber), which is basically just a Longsword that can be finessed.
You also might want to consider an Estoc which is finesseable when wielded one-handed or two-handed if you have EWP(Estoc).
The advanced weapon training, Fighter's Finesse can do it. But you'd need to wait till that's available.
Too bad it's for PFS, otherwise Sword Devil would be perfect for this.
Here's how I would build this:
Class: Unchained Barbarian, Savage Technologist archetype
Race:: Human, Military Tradition (Estoc, Elven Branched Spear), feel free to replace Skilled with whatever you want but Heart of the Fields is really handy for Barbs
Point Buy: S15 D16+2 C14 I10 W10 CH8
Feats and Talents:
LV1. Weapon Finesse, Power Attack
LV2. Guarded Stance
LV3. Extra RP: Superstition
LV4. Lesser Beast Totem, +1 STR
LV5. Reckless Rage
LV6. Beast Totem
LV7. Iron Will
LV8. Reflexive Dodge, +1 DEX
With this build, at level 8, while unarmored, you have a total of 20 AC (10 + 4 DEX + 3 Beast Totem + 3 Guarded Stance + 2 Savage Barbarian - 2 Rage). Not too shabby, particularly because it all scales and you have a great HP padding behind that. Your Reflex saves should be extremely good too, and you are getting bonuses to a lot of different saves with this build, plus the ability to use either an Estoc for Power Attacking 1.5x damage or an Elven Branched Spear if you need the reach.
Plus with the Estoc you can always get a buckler on for extra AC if you need it.
Well that archetype being unavailable is a serious bummer. And people wonder why I get snippy about the "must own the book rule." Not only are the books expensive but even when I do own them I can't use half the stuff in it. Or better yet the whole book is made illegal for play after I've purchased it... *sigh* but I digress I know getting people to buy the stuff is the point and there's no use in whining.
Those other options are likely way better but bringing a good amount of skills and being capable with them was also part of the point. I can't think of the last time I've played with anyone at the places that host PFS I can make it too that have brought anything but a beat stick kinda character so skills at the table tend to be, and by that I mean always in my experience, nonexistent outside of what I bring. I'm talking druids without knowledge nature, Paladins without diplomacy or knowledge religion (I do have to say though the paladin did play this off hilariously going with a sort of "what part of blind faith don't you get?" Kinda thing")
All of this is fine but I'm trying to address a common knitpick wth my characters, which is that I don't stack up with everyone else in combat, while still doing what i primarily enjoy which as a fan of social encounters and dungeon crawling etc. etc. is skills and such. I don't die or need saving all the time or anything but I don't really deal much damage so not super useful is the best way to put it and It's not like I don't enjoy combat encounters but it's hard to keep up with their characters at least to an extent where they aren't asking what the heck did you build and trying to give me advice later while packing tons of skills and being capable enough at them to regularly succeed with them as i get higher level.
So a LOT of skill ranks is kinda the hang up here, so a martial who makes good use of mental stats, particularly int cuz that gets more ranks and can replace most charisma uses, and ends up with a pretty decent amount skill ranks is my hang up I suppose.
Moms cannot get you elven battle focus without prereqs, there was errata, 2015 I think
Well shoot. Ima have to go check on that.
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Honestly, what I would do?
* Race: Elf (because elven swordfighting style as an elf just feels right)
Lvl 1: Fighter Learned Duelist / Lore Warden
- Weapon Finesse (lvl 1 bonus feat)
- Elven Battle Style (lvl 1 feat)
- +1 dodge bonus for being unarmored
Lvl 2: Monk Master of Many Styles
- Elven Battle Focus (as monk doesn't need to meet pre-requisites. Now get Int to damage)
- Wisdom for AC in addition to Dex.
Lvl 3: Fighter Learned Duelist / Lore Warden
- Combat Expertise (free bonus feat)
- Weapon Focus (lvl 3 feat)
Lvl 4: Monk Master of Many Styles
- Can now use 2 styles at the same time
- Elven Battle Torrent (free bonus feat, doesn't need to meet prerequisites. While using Elven Battle Style, any opponent that makes an attack against you and misses while you are fighting defensively or using total defense or the Combat Expertise feat provokes an attack of opportunity from you)
Lvl 5: Fighter Learned Duelist / Lore Warden
- Swordplay Style (lvl 5 feat, While using this style, wielding the chosen weapon, and fighting defensively or using either the total defense action or the Combat Expertise feat, you gain a +1 shield bonus to your Armor Class. In addition, you do not take the penalty on melee attacks from Combat Expertise on the first attack roll you make each turn, lvl 3 feat)
Lvl 6: Fighter Learned Duelist / Lore Warden
- Combat Reflexes (fighter bonus feat)
------------------------------
There you go! Use the Aldori Dueling Sword, as it is just a longsword used for dueling that works with weapon finesse. Takes 2 swift actions to get both feats up and going...but you now get to make your first attack with combat expertise without penalty.
For AC, you have dex to AC, wis to AC, dodge bonuses from your fighter class, a small shield bonus from swordplay style and you have combat expertise which you will always use.
And finally, whenever someone misses you in close combat, you will give you an attack of opportunity.
----------------
Going forward from this, you could grab mobility and dodge, which shouldn't be hard with fighter levels. Then go straight duelist prestige class. This will give you Canny Defense (intelligence to AC) and precise strike (duelist lvl to damage).
The nice thing about this, is that you eventually have Dex, Int and Wis to AC, in addition to your other bonuses. And as an elf, having high Int (for damage and AC) shouldn't be hard.
That does seem pretty legit save for two things: 1 idk if I can use the dueling sword with elven battle style, I don't think I can but I might be wrong.
2: if I can find this errata secret wizard mentioned the moms thing may not work for grabbing the feat.
It's not even errata that i know of MoMS only ignores prereqs for [style] feats meaning that the follow up feats aren't can't have theirs ignored. However your wildcard slots can be used for them provided you meet the prereqs but that's only useful if you are planning on having extra styles.
MOMS 1 can get you elven battle style with no requirements.
MOMS 2 can get you a different style with no requirements.
here is an updated version of the archetype.
Well that archetype being unavailable is a serious bummer. And people wonder why I get snippy about the "must own the book rule." Not only are the books expensive but even when I do own them I can't use half the stuff in it. Or better yet the whole book is made illegal for play after I've purchased it... *sigh* but I digress I know getting people to buy the stuff is the point and there's no use in whining.
Those other options are likely way better but bringing a good amount of skills and being capable with them was also part of the point. I can't think of the last time I've played with anyone at the places that host PFS I can make it too that have brought anything but a beat stick kinda character so skills at the table tend to be, and by that I mean always in my experience, nonexistent outside of what I bring. I'm talking druids without knowledge nature, Paladins without diplomacy or knowledge religion (I do have to say though the paladin did play this off hilariously going with a sort of "what part of blind faith don't you get?" Kinda thing")
All of this is fine but I'm trying to address a common knitpick wth my characters, which is that I don't stack up with everyone else in combat, while still doing what i primarily enjoy which as a fan of social encounters and dungeon crawling etc. etc. is skills and such. I don't die or need saving all the time or anything but I don't really deal much damage so not super useful is the best way to put it and It's not like I don't enjoy combat encounters but it's hard to keep up with their characters at least to an extent where they aren't asking what the heck did you build and trying to give me advice later while packing tons of skills and being capable enough at them to regularly succeed with them as i get higher level.
So a LOT of skill ranks is kinda the hang up here, so a martial who makes good use of mental stats, particularly int cuz that gets more ranks and can replace most charisma uses, and ends up with a pretty decent amount skill ranks is my hang up...
But my character has 5 skill ranks per level...
You could dump CHA to 7 and get WIS to 12 and focus on Survival.
Plus you are a Barb so you rock all the STR checks.
ALSO: to be totally fair, the archetype I posted is from a PF comic book, not a book :P
Huh, guess my copy of the book is pretty old, wonder how much other out of date stuff I'm looking at lol.
Secret Wizard has the right idea, but I'd like to highlight that you can't take Savage Technologist (PCS: Technology Guide) with Unchained Barbarian, it alters Rage (though standard barbarian should be fine if you want that archetype). You also lose your Bonus feat by taking Military Tradition (PCS: Inner Sea Races). Though, that just means you need to shift Power Attack to 3rd.
I'd also iterate that if you don't have any Strength but also don't want Dex to Damage, you will not deal any damage at all. I recommend that you take at minimum 13 Strength for Power Attack, and to then increase your Strength to 14 with one of you ability score increases.
Also, I am going to also echo the suggestion of Fighter, even a vanilla Fighter, as your class choice. The Trained Grace Advanced Weapon Training option from the Weapon Master's Handbook is a good option for any character who doesn't want Dex to Damage (because doing so is usually too many feats to really bother with so this is really good for TWF'ing specifically). You would need to go 5 levels in at most, or 4 to as a Weapon Master (though with Weapon Master, this delays Weapon Specialization by a level, so probably best to just go 5 and archetypeless). This is also just one source book over three, if that matters for you.
As an example build from a human, and flagrantly stealing Secret Wizard's format
Class Fighter
Race Human (racial traits to replace Skilled up to you. You do have a high Int for prerequisites)
Point Buy 14, 15+2, 14, 13, 12, 8
Feats and Features
1st - Two-weapon Fighting, Weapon Finesse, Weapon Focus: Kukri
2nd - Dodge
3rd - Power Attack
4th - Weapon Specialization: Kukri (+1 Dex)
5th - Advanced Weapon Training (feat): Trained Grace
6th - Improved Two-weapon Fighting
7th - Lunge
8th - Greater Weapon Focus: Kukri (+1 Dex)
You have a greater variety of armour options, even utilizing heavy armour at 7th very effectively. You can utilize this build in full plate. I'd even recommend using medium armour over light at 3rd, at heavy over medium at 7th, since generally the bonus you will get with either option is better fulfilled by the next armour category, and you move at full speed in these armours, which is unique to Fighters.
Note that you could actually take Mutagen Warrior as well. Then I'd recommend not using anything stronger than light armour (you'd have natural armour under mutagen to make up the difference), and you have a huge offensive boost to either your accuracy or damage (I'd recommend Strength mostly, just because not having Armed Bravery yet makes you a little vulnerable to Will saves if you use Mutagen to boost Dex).
If sourcebooks aren't an issue for you, here is an alternative path,
1st- Two-Weapon Fighting, Weapon Finesse, Possessed Hand (Haunted Heroes Handbook)
2nd - Weapon Focus: Kukri
3rd - Hand Autonomy (Haunted Heroes Handbook)
4th - Weapon Specialization: Kukri
5th - Advanced Weapon Training (feat): Trained Grace
6th - Improved Two-Weapon Fighting
7th - Lunge
8th - Greater Weapon Focus: Kukri
In this situation, we get a slightly stronger build all thanks to the Possessed Hand feat line, which gives us greater accuracy with one of our hands, more damage with that hand, some sweet utility options, and our two-weapon fighting penalty is only -1. Down the line, you can even make that hand a familiar, which has a huge variety of utility in of itself. I'd recommend Mutagen Warrior again.
That does seem pretty legit save for two things: 1 idk if I can use the dueling sword with elven battle style, I don't think I can but I might be wrong.
2: if I can find this errata secret wizard mentioned the moms thing may not work for grabbing the feat.
i wasnt this but i wouldnt have loved to be the guy to shatter your dreams
Secret Wizard has the right idea, but I'd like to highlight that you can't take Savage Technologist (PCS: Technology Guide) with Unchained Barbarian, it alters Rage (though standard barbarian should be fine if you want that archetype). You also lose your Bonus feat by taking Military Tradition (PCS: Inner Sea Races). Though, that just means you need to shift Power Attack to 3rd.
I'd also iterate that if you don't have any Strength but also don't want Dex to Damage, you will not deal any damage at all. I recommend that you take at minimum 13 Strength for Power Attack, and to then increase your Strength to 14 with one of you ability score increases.
Also, I am going to also echo the suggestion of Fighter, even a vanilla Fighter, as your class choice. The Trained Grace Advanced Weapon Training option from the Weapon Master's Handbook is a good option for any character who doesn't want Dex to Damage (because doing so is usually too many feats to really bother with so this is really good for TWF'ing specifically). You would need to go 5 levels in at most, or 4 to as a Weapon Master (though with Weapon Master, this delays Weapon Specialization by a level, so probably best to just go 5 and archetypeless). This is also just one source book over three, if that matters for you.
As an example build from a human, and flagrantly stealing Secret Wizard's format
Class Fighter
Race Human (racial traits to replace Skilled up to you. You do have a high Int for prerequisites)Point Buy 14, 15+2, 14, 13, 12, 8
Feats and Features
1st - Two-weapon Fighting, Weapon Finesse, Weapon Focus: Kukri
2nd - Dodge
3rd - Power Attack
4th - Weapon Specialization: Kukri (+1 Dex)
5th - Advanced Weapon Training (feat): Trained Grace
6th - Improved Two-weapon Fighting
7th - Lunge
8th - Greater Weapon Focus: Kukri (+1 Dex)You have a greater variety of armour options, even utilizing heavy armour at 7th very effectively. You can utilize this build in full plate. I'd even recommend using...
1. I said Savage Barbarian, not Savage Technologist! It's totally PFS legal. It grants bonuses to AC and fear saves while unarmored.
2. Possessed Hand is super PFS illegal. I imagine it's because it's poorly worded.
I think you mistyped then, yo. It says Savage Technologist in your post.
Oh, and it's tricky to keep up with everything PFS restricts, so forgive me. I just knew Possessed Hand was THE TWF feat to take on most builds now. I guess the first build I recommended will be the way to go.
Well there's the thing, everyone else brings beat sticks, I'm serious it's very uncommon for me to not be the only character who isn't martial, even casters are few and far between but I don't enjoy them much. Also when I say martials, I mean mental stat dumping martials, usually 7 int or 7 charisma. Sometimes both take hits.
Str stuff is the only things ever covered. As I've mentioned I'd I don't wanna murder my way through every adventure I have to bring whatever skills I might need because, and I'm not exagerating, its the norm at these tables for me to be the only one packing any reasonable amount of skills and not have crap rolls on them. Knowledges are never present, disable device is never present, I can't recall a time I want doing the diplomacy. Its a Big reason I play rogues nigh exclusively cuz funny enough it's been this way since I played games at home with a dungeon master and a two man party. My friend was the bea stick and I was the skill monkey.
If I want a skill present at the table I have to bring it has basically been the rule of thumb for me at these tables, which includes social skills, knowledges, and general helpful stuff like disable device and what have ya. Which is fine I'd play rogues all day, but as I'm trying to address the comments I tend to get about my lack luster "at least I don't die and need saved" kinda characters who mainly pester while still having a sizeable amount of skills I can roll very high on. Frankly combat prowess of the group is never really an issue, the tables are all combat optimized characters. I cover literally everything else when I'm there but there tends to be some concerns about me in combat and building to simply stay alive and pester to do my skill monkey job later gets frowned upon at times.
Sounds like a Kensai or an Iroran Paladin could bring a fair bit of utility too.
Another good one is an Unchained monk. You can build for sword use too.
Check the Mantis build in my guide. You can adapt it to be more utility based in coherent ways.
Then frankly, I don't know what to tell you. What you ask for can't be done by the martials very well, and it sounds like the barbie Secret Wizard suggested is exactly what you want but apparently not good enough. So you might as well accept it's simply out of the realm of possibility for a martial.
Or just play a Kensai Magus. Int-based unarmoured martial which can gain proficiency and Weapon Focus in one martial or exotic weapon, which gives you Estocs, so you can use Dex to hit and damage using spells and Strength. Again, take minimum 13 Strength. You cannot dump strength on ANY martial. Period. Don't do it unless you want to be completely useless.
So, unarmoured swordsman. OOPS, MISSED THAT BIT. Eh, if you go Mutagen Warrior you still get what you want with my build. That natural armour bonus is baller! Oh, and if skills are a problem, then you can get Versatile Training to help keep up your skills where necessary.
Another good one is an Unchained monk. You can build for sword use too.
Check the Mantis build in my guide. You can adapt it to be more utility based in coherent ways.
It would be nice to use unchained for something other than the unchained rogue. I'll definitely give it a look cuz the monk was always my second favorite class and I haven't really tried out the unchained to see how it's changes play out.
Then frankly, I don't know what to tell you. What you ask for can't be done by the martials very well, and it sounds like the barbie Secret Wizard suggested is exactly what you want but apparently not good enough. So you might as well accept it's simply out of the realm of possibility for a martial.
Or just play a Kensai Magus. Int-based unarmoured martial which can gain proficiency and Weapon Focus in one martial or exotic weapon, which gives you Estocs, so you can use Dex to hit and damage using spells and Strength. Again, take minimum 13 Strength. You cannot dump strength on ANY martial. Period. Don't do it unless you want to be completely useless.
So, unarmoured swordsman. OOPS, MISSED THAT BIT. Eh, if you go Mutagen Warrior you still get what you want with my build. That natural armour bonus is baller! Oh, and if skills are a problem, then you can get Versatile Training to help keep up your skills where necessary.
Yea I know the demands are pretty high, and I'm being pretty persnickety about wanting a lot of skills, I'm not trying to be the star of the show in combat either, just trying give up a bit of skill points than I usually have to try to squeeze in a bit more damage cuz frankly that's always the main complaint is I just don't do much damage cuz I know that one everyone else is bringing muscle and two I know combat isn't my time to shine so as long as I can tack on some damage and help with some minor support stuff And not get killed I'm pretty content. im just trying to adress my PFS mates criticisms. Sure I could say bring some skills then but it's not like they aren't more than content to kill their way through everything. I'm not so it falling in me to bring those things sounds about right.
It would be nice to use unchained for something other than the unchained rogue. I'll definitely give it a look cuz the monk was always my second favorite class and I haven't really tried out the unchained to see how it's changes play out.Another good one is an Unchained monk. You can build for sword use too.
Check the Mantis build in my guide. You can adapt it to be more utility based in coherent ways.
Made this guide because people were being pissy after unchained monk came out because it didn't fit their fan fiction. It's not flawless design but it's great design. Most of the problems it has can be fixed with a few releases down the line.
Before anything of the rewrite makes you knock the unchained version (for some reason people were attached to the -10 extra attack), check the build section. It shows stats to prove the class doesn't just make do.
The Mantis build combines swordsmanship with a few unarmed strikes here and there.
It would be nice to use unchained for something other than the unchained rogue. I'll definitely give it a look cuz the monk was always my second favorite class and I haven't really tried out the unchained to see how it's changes play out.Another good one is an Unchained monk. You can build for sword use too.
Check the Mantis build in my guide. You can adapt it to be more utility based in coherent ways.
Made this guide because people were being pissy after unchained monk came out because it didn't fit their fan fiction. It's not flawless design but it's great design. Most of the problems it has can be fixed with a few releases down the line.
Before anything of the rewrite makes you knock the unchained version (for some reason people were attached to the -10 extra attack), check the build section. It shows stats to prove the class doesn't just make do.
The Mantis build combines swordsmanship with a few unarmed strikes here and there.
Thanks bud. Swords and punching people are a few of my favorite things. :)
You could also just use an elven curve blade. Two-handed but finessable, with better damage than the long sword.
Didn't see this one till now, it doesn't work with most of the duelist stuff. It's still a thought I'd been considering.
Also in PFS elven battle focus is definitely melee only(see AR)
Idk what AR is but seriously why? That's an odd change to make just for PFS. I just want a non caster that gets good use of int!
Just WHY. I want refunds. XD
AR stands for Additional Resources. That page and the Campaign Clarifications page basically lay out the house rules for PFS.
AR is additional resources. In the entry saying what of Weapon master's handbook is legal it says, "Elven Battle Focus functions only for melee weapons".
If you're not bothering to wait/read if something is legal or not before you buy something for PFS then it's a big gamble.
AR=additional resources
It isn't really a change to be honest. It's a misinterpretation to think you can apply it to weapons other than those specified in elven battle style.
elven battle style gives you a bonus while using certain weapons(a longsword, a rapier, or any melee weapon that has “elven” in its name), elven battle focus says while using elven battle style, you can add your Intelligence modifier to that weapon’s damage
Throwing enchant + "a longsword, a rapier, or any melee weapon that has “elven” in its name" equals weapons that are allowed by the elven battle style that can be used in ranged combat. So there is no "misinterpretation" needed to think that it should work in ranged combat.
Warpriest has enough feats to pull it off.
Throwing enchant + "a longsword, a rapier, or any melee weapon that has “elven” in its name" equals weapons that are allowed by the elven battle style that can be used in ranged combat. So there is no "misinterpretation" needed to think that it should work in ranged combat.AR=additional resources
It isn't really a change to be honest. It's a misinterpretation to think you can apply it to weapons other than those specified in elven battle style.
elven battle style gives you a bonus while using certain weapons(a longsword, a rapier, or any melee weapon that has “elven” in its name), elven battle focus says while using elven battle style, you can add your Intelligence modifier to that weapon’s damage
No he's right I did read it wrong. I can be bad about that. Shame, that halfway blows my idea on a phantom thief archer.
It's not even errata that i know of MoMS only ignores prereqs for [style] feats meaning that the follow up feats aren't can't have theirs ignored. However your wildcard slots can be used for them provided you meet the prereqs but that's only useful if you are planning on having extra styles.
I brought this one back up cuz it's relevant but is there a similar restriction on the "prereqs free" style feat that the unarmed fighter gives you??