For me honestly in a party if the rogue can make it so I don't get walloped by traps he has done his job and I could care less what else he does.
You're probably in the minority there. Depending on the type of campaign you're in, multiple gaming sessions can go by without coming across a single trap. A good character is useful both in and out of combat.
well current one I'm in is stock full of traps so might have something to do with it. Also not JUST traps that was a blanket statement but general skill monkey stuff. I'm not really that used to rogues being that terribly damaging.
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Sadly we have no caster at all, so we won't have haste. I'll have to eventually pick up boots of speed or something similar.I guess I shine out of combat more because I have a 20 int and almost every skill in the game with a decent success rate.
With that much Intelligence, you could actually get a pretty good DC on a Major Magic casting such as Chill Touch. A few days ago, I even saw a feat or Rogue Talent that lets you use a spellbook to swap the spell you choose for Major Magic, but now I can't find it again. Normally, you would leave this kind of thing to the party arcane caster, but since your party doesn't have one, here's a chance to shine.
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{. . .}
Sadly we have no caster at all, so we won't have haste. I'll have to eventually pick up boots of speed or something similar.I guess I shine out of combat more because I have a 20 int and almost every skill in the game with a decent success rate.
With that much Intelligence, you could actually get a pretty good DC on a Major Magic casting such as Chill Touch. A few days ago, I even saw a feat or Rogue Talent that lets you use a spellbook to swap the spell you choose for Major Magic, but now I can't find it again. Normally, you would leave this kind of thing to the party arcane caster, but since your party doesn't have one, here's a chance to shine.
From a party perspective, doing 1 attack per round at high level doing maybe 35 damage is a character that makes very little difference to the party's success in combat. Whether that sucks is up to you.
I also, given our party's make up... don't think we'll be a high damage group anyway:
Goblin Crane Style Monk of the Four Winds (does an average of 5-10 damage per round at level 4)
Aldori Swordlord (does big boy damage)
Ranger Dragon Warden who is specced for archery but melees most of the time?
Inquisitor
well current one I'm in is stock full of traps so might have something to do with it. Also not JUST traps that was a blanket statement but general skill monkey stuff. I'm not really that used to rogues being that terribly damaging.
We run into A LOT OF TRAPS. And yeah, I am a huge skill monkey. I have points in almost every knowledge, I can craft some minor alchemical s#%+ (mostly poison)... We have avoided several combats simply by me using my skill list to solve a puzzle.
{. . .}
Sadly we have no caster at all, so we won't have haste. I'll have to eventually pick up boots of speed or something similar.I guess I shine out of combat more because I have a 20 int and almost every skill in the game with a decent success rate.
With that much Intelligence, you could actually get a pretty good DC on a Major Magic casting such as Chill Touch. A few days ago, I even saw a feat or Rogue Talent that lets you use a spellbook to swap the spell you choose for Major Magic, but now I can't find it again. Normally, you would leave this kind of thing to the party arcane caster, but since your party doesn't have one, here's a chance to shine.
If I took it at like...higher levels... I could use Shocking Grasp multiple times per day and Sneak Attack with an extra 5d6 every time. ....Seems attractive, but may be a trap.
From a party perspective, doing 1 attack per round at high level doing maybe 35 damage is a character that makes very little difference to the party's success in combat. Whether that sucks is up to you.
I also, given our party's make up... don't think we'll be a high damage group anyway:
Goblin Crane Style Monk of the Four Winds (does an average of 5-10 damage per round at level 4)
Aldori Swordlord (does big boy damage)
Ranger Dragon Warden who is specced for archery but melees most of the time?
Inquisitor
Chances are, the Goblin doesn't have Dexterity to Damage, and has crap Strength. He's also small size, which means his Unarmed Strikes are doing 1D6 at best (but at least he can hit pretty decently with Weapon Finesse). So 5-10 damage per round with a Flurry is to be expected, especially since he's Crane Style oriented, which means he's a "tank."
The Swordlord seems like a trap archetype compared to a Lore Warden. Even if it is, going Dex-based and picking up Slashing Grace (which ironically enough, requires spending a feat on proficiency due to the Dueling Sword being an Exotic Weapon that the Swordlord doesn't grant proficiency for), he's doing more damage than the Crane Style Monk, but will be behind the Ranger when facing proper Favored Enemies.
My guess is that Ranger is a Switch-Hitter; that is, he uses one weapon (a bow) until circumstances change (bad guys get in his face), and then he changes grip on said weapon, or draws another one to deal with said circumstance. Being a Ranger, he spent his Combat Style feats on Archery so that he doesn't have to invest his personal feats into them, and it's a solid idea, since some of the requirements for some of the better feats are ridiculously stupid. (Point Blank Master would be the biggest culprit, and I feel that he would probably be purely Archery-based by the time he gets this at 6th level.) Even so, the only feat Melee Martials need is Power Attack. Outside that, nobody really cares what you got for feats.
Inquisitor can do tons of damage regardless of build, especially with them getting Bane by 5th level. Our Switch-hitter Inquisitor did some crazy-strong damage without Bane. With Bane, he just absolutely slaughters everything that comes in our path.
If I took it at like...higher levels... I could use Shocking Grasp multiple times per day and Sneak Attack with an extra 5d6 every time. ....Seems attractive, but may be a trap.{. . .}
Sadly we have no caster at all, so we won't have haste. I'll have to eventually pick up boots of speed or something similar.I guess I shine out of combat more because I have a 20 int and almost every skill in the game with a decent success rate.
With that much Intelligence, you could actually get a pretty good DC on a Major Magic casting such as Chill Touch. A few days ago, I even saw a feat or Rogue Talent that lets you use a spellbook to swap the spell you choose for Major Magic, but now I can't find it again. Normally, you would leave this kind of thing to the party arcane caster, but since your party doesn't have one, here's a chance to shine.
Well, considering you're already invested in being a one-hit wonder, and Touch Spells by themselves are one-hit wonders, I find the idea would be conducive.
I mean, you could get a Spellstoring Shortsword if you went this route, which means you can just cast your Major Magic talent into the Shortsword, charge an enemy, get full Sneak Attack, plus your Shocking Grasp of 5D6, and you're going to be doing a lot of damage.
If you could find a way to make that Shocking Grasp Intensified through your benefits (perhaps UMD a Metamagic Rod to store into the weapon?), 10D6 Shocking Grasp + 10D6 Sneak Attack + 1D6 Weapon + Dexterity = Tons of Burst Damage.
I also, given our party's make up... don't think we'll be a high damage group anyway
If your GM is creating adventures specially for your group, then being a suboptimal rogue who just uses a shortsword is probably fine.
If you GM is trying to run printed material of standard difficulty, a strong character who can compensate for the monk's weak damage output might be a necessity.
OP, you posted this thread twice. Here is the link to the other one that people have been posting on for your reference.
OP, you posted this thread twice. Here is the link to the other one that people have been posting on for your reference.
Damn ... what a stupid idiot. I'm sorry -_-. Thanks for pointing that out for me!
I also, given our party's make up... don't think we'll be a high damage group anywayIf your GM is creating adventures specially for your group, then being a suboptimal rogue who just uses a shortsword is probably fine.
If you GM is trying to run printed material of standard difficulty, a strong character who can compensate for the monk's weak damage output might be a necessity.
Yes this is all home made, he doesn't use source material. So I think you may be right. I don't think he would do anything we can't handle.
If I took it at like...higher levels... I could use Shocking Grasp multiple times per day and Sneak Attack with an extra 5d6 every time. ....Seems attractive, but may be a trap.{. . .}
Sadly we have no caster at all, so we won't have haste. I'll have to eventually pick up boots of speed or something similar.I guess I shine out of combat more because I have a 20 int and almost every skill in the game with a decent success rate.
With that much Intelligence, you could actually get a pretty good DC on a Major Magic casting such as Chill Touch. A few days ago, I even saw a feat or Rogue Talent that lets you use a spellbook to swap the spell you choose for Major Magic, but now I can't find it again. Normally, you would leave this kind of thing to the party arcane caster, but since your party doesn't have one, here's a chance to shine.
Well, considering you're already invested in being a one-hit wonder, and Touch Spells by themselves are one-hit wonders, I find the idea would be conducive.
I mean, you could get a Spellstoring Shortsword if you went this route, which means you can just cast your Major Magic talent into the Shortsword, charge an enemy, get full Sneak Attack, plus your Shocking Grasp of 5D6, and you're going to be doing a lot of damage.
If you could find a way to make that Shocking Grasp Intensified through your benefits (perhaps UMD a Metamagic Rod to store into the weapon?), 10D6 Shocking Grasp + 10D6 Sneak Attack + 1D6 Weapon + Dexterity = Tons of Burst Damage.
That actually could be pretty fun ... I could drop bleeding attack and Flensing Strike for Minor/Major magic and have it by 7th... or see if I can retrain Offensive Defensive and get it by 6th...
Can I sneak attack with just a touch? In case I don't get a spellstoring weapon any time soon?
Hmmm, that I don't know. Based on how Arcane Tricksters operate, probably not.
Hmmm, that I don't know. Based on how Arcane Tricksters operate, probably not.
Hmm. Others are saying on forums that they can do SA with Touch Spells... So it may still be useful... I am conflicted.
Hmmm, that I don't know. Based on how Arcane Tricksters operate, probably not.Hmm. Others are saying on forums that they can do SA with Touch Spells... So it may still be useful... I am conflicted.
I can't recall any rule saying that SA needs to be performed with a weapon. You need an attack roll and HP damage. No reason a touch spell wouldn't work. You're just applying your shocking grasp to a vital spot.
I can't recall any rule saying that SA needs to be performed with a weapon. You need an attack roll and HP damage. No reason a touch spell wouldn't work. You're just applying your shocking grasp to a vital spot.Hmmm, that I don't know. Based on how Arcane Tricksters operate, probably not.Hmm. Others are saying on forums that they can do SA with Touch Spells... So it may still be useful... I am conflicted.
It's not that the SA has to be performed with a weapon, it's that Sneak Attack is usually considered physical damage, which is affected by Damage Reduction.
Granted, there is a FAQ regarding Sneak Attack with Scorching Ray, but I find that you still have to have the Arcane Trickster capstone in order to actually apply Sneak Attack to it, since that is the entire point of the Arcane Trickster capstone.
First level rogues don't have a +1 bab and thus don't qualify for weapon focus.
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First level rogues don't have a +1 bab and thus don't qualify for weapon focus.
*throws horse corpse whose cause of death was severe blunt force trauma*
First level rogues don't have a +1 bab and thus don't qualify for weapon focus.*throws horse corpse whose cause of death was severe blunt force trauma*
LOL. Honestly I probably flubbed that up because I entered the Campaign already level 2.
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I have a Kitsuna Rogue inPFS right now. For combat, he's generic but decent. TWF chain for multiple shortsword attacks. His shtick is that he went Minor Magic into Major Magic for Vanish. Now he can play pretend-ninja and sneak into position. The first attack in his chain is very likely to hit, and Debilitating Strike can bump down their AC to make the rest of his blows more accurate.
As long as you can use a fancy trick to make that first blow stick, the rest of TWF isn't so bad. True Strike is another option with even more accuracy, but the timing makes it awkward to cast for melee and it has far less utility.
Also, looking at your party their damage output isn't optimal but I'm guessing they're having a lot of fun with their characters so it's cool. The lack of casters would be worrying, but it's a homegame so it can work. Heck, if you can keep Use Magic Device up to par, the party might want to chip in for scrolls of Haste.
I have a Kitsuna Rogue inPFS right now. For combat, he's generic but decent. TWF chain for multiple shortsword attacks. His shtick is that he went Minor Magic into Major Magic for Vanish. Now he can play pretend-ninja and sneak into position. The first attack in his chain is very likely to hit, and Debilitating Strike can bump down their AC to make the rest of his blows more accurate.
As long as you can use a fancy trick to make that first blow stick, the rest of TWF isn't so bad. True Strike is another option with even more accuracy, but the timing makes it awkward to cast for melee and it has far less utility.
Also, looking at your party their damage output isn't optimal but I'm guessing they're having a lot of fun with their characters so it's cool. The lack of casters would be worrying, but it's a homegame so it can work. Heck, if you can keep Use Magic Device up to par, the party might want to chip in for scrolls of Haste.
I am thinking of pooling for a wand of haste down the road. Not having any mage at all is definitely weird. Though I will say, in the other campaign we played, my Bard was the only caster... i guess they dont like casters lol.
I still may consider twf... i have a few ideas and paths I may look into... i am just having commitment issues lol
You might be better off with Boots of Speed.
I was also thinking this but for the same price I have 50 uses of full party haste and then I can wear Daredevil Boots to avoid AOO 10 rounds a day
I can't recall any rule saying that SA needs to be performed with a weapon. You need an attack roll and HP damage. No reason a touch spell wouldn't work. You're just applying your shocking grasp to a vital spot.Hmmm, that I don't know. Based on how Arcane Tricksters operate, probably not.Hmm. Others are saying on forums that they can do SA with Touch Spells... So it may still be useful... I am conflicted.It's not that the SA has to be performed with a weapon, it's that Sneak Attack is usually considered physical damage, which is affected by Damage Reduction.
Granted, there is a FAQ regarding Sneak Attack with Scorching Ray, but I find that you still have to have the Arcane Trickster capstone in order to actually apply Sneak Attack to it, since that is the entire point of the Arcane Trickster capstone.
Actually not true.
You can apply SA to any damage type as long as you make a attack roll and target allows SA damage.The Arcane Trickster cap ability allows applying SA to ANY spell that deals damage.
Example: Spell - Fireball you can't apply SA damage, no attack roll. With Arcane Trickster cap ability that Fireball can now deal SA damage if targets are flat footed.
And this means that if you make a Touch Attack (or close enough Ranged Touch Attack) with a spell that does damage, this attack qualifies for Sneak Attack damage, but is more likely to hit than a normal weapon attack. This works best if the spell gives multiple attacks per casting, like Chill Touch or Frostbite. If you go VMC Magus (since you are already at 4th level, when you are about to go to 5th level, see if you can retrain your 3rd level feat to be at 5th level to make room for VMC Magus I at 3rd level), you can also apply these spells through your weapon attacks, which trades out the above advantage for the advantage of being able to apply them through a Reach weapon (like for instance, Elven Branched Spear).
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For me honestly in a party if the rogue can make it so I don't get walloped by traps he has done his job and I could care less what else he does.
This isn't 2nd edition where finding and disarming traps/unlocking doors and occassioanlly backstabbing in combat was all that was required of a rogue. There are about ten archetypes of various classes that get trapfinding besides a rogue, and any decent campaign will not have enough traps in it to make it that big of a deal. If there are traps everywhere, the game grinds to a halt while the paranoid players insist on the rogue searching every square of the dungeon, and then he gets grief when he eventually fails a roll, and they get hit by a trap anyway. The occassional short deathtrap dungeon is ok, but they should be few and far between. Like everyone else in the party, the rogue needs to be effective in combat, and that generally means getting off as many sneak attacks as possible. I think a good compromise is getting two-weapon fighting and forgoing the rest of that particular feat chain in favor of ones that increase your mobility and other things that fit with the scout archetype. That way, when you are flanking an enemy without having to move, you can pull out a second short sword and ginsu the guy. The rest of the time, you can do your scout thing and do hit and run sneak attacks (spring attack and boosting your speed any way you can really help with this.)
And this means that if you make a Touch Attack (or close enough Ranged Touch Attack) with a spell that does damage, this attack qualifies for Sneak Attack damage, but is more likely to hit than a normal weapon attack. This works best if the spell gives multiple attacks per casting, like Chill Touch or Frostbite. If you go VMC Magus (since you are already at 4th level, when you are about to go to 5th level, see if you can retrain your 3rd level feat to be at 5th level to make room for VMC Magus I at 3rd level), you can also apply these spells through your weapon attacks, which trades out the above advantage for the advantage of being able to apply...I can't recall any rule saying that SA needs to be performed with a weapon. You need an attack roll and HP damage. No reason a touch spell wouldn't work. You're just applying your shocking grasp to a vital spot.Hmmm, that I don't know. Based on how Arcane Tricksters operate, probably not.Hmm. Others are saying on forums that they can do SA with Touch Spells... So it may still be useful... I am conflicted.It's not that the SA has to be performed with a weapon, it's that Sneak Attack is usually considered physical damage, which is affected by Damage Reduction.
Granted, there is a FAQ regarding Sneak Attack with Scorching Ray, but I find that you still have to have the Arcane Trickster capstone in order to actually apply Sneak Attack to it, since that is the entire point of the Arcane Trickster capstone.
Actually not true.
You can apply SA to any damage type as long as you make a attack roll and target allows SA damage.The Arcane Trickster cap ability allows applying SA to ANY spell that deals damage.
Example: Spell - Fireball you can't apply SA damage, no attack roll. With Arcane Trickster cap ability that Fireball can now deal SA damage if targets are flat footed.
Not sure what VMC means but Magus was banned from the campaign for being too powerful:/ or I wouldn't be playing a rogue lol
You might be better off with Boots of Speed.I was also thinking this but for the same price I have 50 uses of full party haste and then I can wear Daredevil Boots to avoid AOO 10 rounds a dayAction economy matters. You would need a move action to draw the wand, a standard action to use it, and then unless you want to just drop your valuable wand on the ground, a move action to put it away.
That's a lot of actions for a 5 round spell, in the middle of combat...compare that to free action haste from the boots.
But sure, the wand has the advantage of full-party haste, especially if your party has a lot of martials who like to full-attack.
That makes sense... most of our party is martials... but yeah that makes sense about kinda screwing myself out of two rounds
LOL. Honestly I probably flubbed that up because I entered the Campaign already level 2.First level rogues don't have a +1 bab and thus don't qualify for weapon focus.*throws horse corpse whose cause of death was severe blunt force trauma*
The next time you would qualify for a feat is third level, which you would then qualify for weapon focus.
Maybe this would give you the opportunity to rebuild since technically the feat is not legal until 3rd?
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It's a question of what role you want to fill in combat. If you're getting the wand of haste to improve your DPR, then you're better off with the boots. If you're ok serving a support roll at the start of combat, then haste is a fantastic buff that will ultimately pobably create more of an increase in damage for the party than you making a full round attack. It does mean spending your first round buffing the party instead of getting a sneak attack off against a flat-footed opponent.
Is there someone in the group who would alternate using the wand with you, and with the UMD to do it? 1st fight, you spend your turn using it, they get to do something offensive. 2nd fight they spend their turn, and you get to melee.
Also, since haste is for the party's benefit, not just yours, you may be able to convince them that the wand should be bought from party treasure and not your cut.
It's a question of what role you want to fill in combat. If you're getting the wand of haste to improve your DPR, then you're better off with the boots. If you're ok serving a support roll at the start of combat, then haste is a fantastic buff that will ultimately pobably create more of an increase in damage for the party than you making a full round attack. It does mean spending your first round buffing the party instead of getting a sneak attack off against a flat-footed opponent.
Is there someone in the group who would alternate using the wand with you, and with the UMD to do it? 1st fight, you spend your turn using it, they get to do something offensive. 2nd fight they spend their turn, and you get to melee.
Also, since haste is for the party's benefit, not just yours, you may be able to convince them that the wand should be bought from party treasure and not your cut.
Yeah I am definitely going to say party treasure. They will go for it, they're good about stuff like that. Sadly I am the only player with UMD so if we go that route, it's on me. Which is fine I guess.
Can you reliably hit the UMD DC20 that you need? Otherwise you're burning more actions.It's a question of what role you want to fill in combat. If you're getting the wand of haste to improve your DPR, then you're better off with the boots. If you're ok serving a support roll at the start of combat, then haste is a fantastic buff that will ultimately pobably create more of an increase in damage for the party than you making a full round attack. It does mean spending your first round buffing the party instead of getting a sneak attack off against a flat-footed opponent.
Is there someone in the group who would alternate using the wand with you, and with the UMD to do it? 1st fight, you spend your turn using it, they get to do something offensive. 2nd fight they spend their turn, and you get to melee.
Also, since haste is for the party's benefit, not just yours, you may be able to convince them that the wand should be bought from party treasure and not your cut.
Yeah I am definitely going to say party treasure. They will go for it, they're good about stuff like that. Sadly I am the only player with UMD so if we go that route, it's on me. Which is fine I guess.
At 4th level I am at +10 right now for my umd. I would assume itll be a few levels til we buy it so by then I'll be lets say ... +12 or +13?
TWF isn't all some people make it out to be. First, it's a heavy feat investment with diminishing returns. Second, you can't always use it.
In my Skull and Sahckles game, one of my players had a 6th-level monk that demolished a 10th-level TWF fighter by himself, simply by keeping on the move and using trip attacks. Several rounds later, the fighter had essentially been skirmished to death, without ever being given the chance to make a full attack.
You clearly have a debuff rogue there, not too dissimilar form mine, which can actually do more damage than a TWF rogue when you account for all the EXTRA hits your allies are getting thanks to your debuffs.
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This isn't 2nd edition where finding and disarming traps/unlocking doors and occassioanlly backstabbing in combat was all that was required of a rogue.
Correct. But I would argue that you don't have to put out the maximum possible amount of damage in order to be pulling your weight in combat. There's certainly room for secondary combattants in a party.
I may just pick up the first feat so I get that one extra attack... I don't NEED flensing strike, and I still don't know if I am allowed to take it. I have a lot of options before me. A lot that I didn't even think about.
Not sure what VMC means but Magus was banned from the campaign for being too powerful:/ or I wouldn't be playing a rogue lol
VMC = Variant Multiclassing (from Pathfinder Unchained). Sounds like other arcane casters were also banned for being too powerful, judging from the party not having any.
IMHO, you are crippling yourself by going 2WF. [...]
You are better off trying to 2-hand a weapon. [...]
So. Much. THIS.
+1
Not sure what VMC means but Magus was banned from the campaign for being too powerful:/ or I wouldn't be playing a rogue lolVMC = Variant Multiclassing (from Pathfinder Unchained). Sounds like other arcane casters were also banned for being too powerful, judging from the party not having any.
No he didnt ban other casters, my party just doesnt like casters haha! One guy actually says that "magic is womens work".
magus is hardly to powerful they can be delt with if the gm knows what they are doing and doesnt just have 1 combat a day. i know they seem strong compared to things like rogues and fighters but thats because they are too weak not that the magus is to strong
I dont think he is an experienced DM. Long time player, but dont think he has dmed a ton
Going against the general consensus here, I think Two Weapon Fighting Rogue is pretty sweet, at least at high level. Focus stealth and you can go toe to toe all day without the enemy really being able to do too much about it: Hell Cat Stealth, Dampen Presence, Conceal Scent, some mundane alchemical options and spells... pump stealth and defeat extraordinary/supernatural senses. The level 15 skill unlock counts all attacks after you break stealth for a turn as sneak attacks, so break stealth full attack, 5ft step hide. Upgrade Swords of Subtlety for that sweet extra +4 on all sneak attacks. If you are an evil a*@$%*@, worship Shax and at level 20 get extra sneak attack dice plus +2 extra damage per die via Demonic Obedience.
That may not be viable for starting low level, but TWF just makes a high level rogue into a wrecking machine. I'd say it's worth having in time for your rank 15 Stealth unlock at the very least.