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Unchained Rogue: Am I crippling myself by NOT going TWF?


Advice

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Looking for some seasoned opinions on the matter. I am currently playing an Unchained Rogue and my team has kind of made comments about how I chose not to go TWF. I've also read that it's...kind of the thing to do.

Here is what I am working with/plans:

Fetchling Unchained Rogue with Scout Archetype currently level 4.

I fight with one short sword. In a flavor sense, it doesn't make sense for my guy to dual wield.

Feats/Talents:
1 - Weapon Focus
2 - Shadow Duplicate
3 - Twist Away
4 - Offensive Defense
5 - Dodge
6 - Bleeding Attack
7 - Flensing Strike
8 - Combat Trick: Mobility
9 - Canny Tumble
10 - Double Debilitation
11 - Spring Attack
12 - Opportunist
13 - Circling Mongoose

Not sure where I am going after this. Point is... With this set up, I should be able to sneak attack in almost any situation: On A charge, after moving 10 feet, during a Spring Attack, After an Acrobatics Tumble, with Mongoose... Combined with Flensing and Bleeding... I should do some nasty damage.

But still I'm told TWF is king. Am I screwing myself? Tell me your thoughts!!


Weapon focus requires BAB of 1, so an unchained rogue can't take it at level 1.


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The Unchained Rogue does lend itself towards two weapon fighting quite well, but it's not necessary and there are good alternatives. One good alternative that could work well for you is the Elven Curve Blade, which is a finessable two-handed weapon that the Unchained Rogue can use to gain 1.5x dexterity to damage on attacks.


Dasrak wrote:
The Unchained Rogue does lend itself towards two weapon fighting quite well, but it's not necessary and there are good alternatives. One good alternative that could work well for you is the Elven Curve Blade, which is a finessable two-handed weapon that the Unchained Rogue can use to gain 1.5x dexterity to damage on attacks.

If you're going with a two handed weapon, you might as well go with the elven branched spear for the reach: Reach plus a high dex for lots of AoO.

Grand Lodge

In terms of pure damage potential, I suspect that a TWF rogue will tend to outperform this build. However, pure damage isn't the only thing that counts. Here are some advantages that I see to what you've got here:

  • Stronger defense (particularly if you use a shield in your off-hand) and the ability to maintain more distance from the enemy.
  • Less reliance on a flanking buddy.
  • Flexibility from having a hand free to use ranged weapons, wands, etc.
  • Only having to buy one weapon leaves you with more money to spend on other useful items.

Something that you should consider is that this build seems to take a while to come together - it could be a lot of fun to play once it's complete, but until then you might find yourself saying, "man, six more levels until I can do the thing I actually want to do in this situation...".

As a final thought, you don't have to create a super-optimized character - I've seen people have lots of fun playing characters who aren't particularly well-optimized. Of course, if your group is geared toward intense combat, the DM might feel the need to challenge them, so bear that in mind as well.


two builds you will want to do with unchained rogue unless your taking an archetype of some kind are twf or thf dex builds


It's not necessary.

My group has an unchained rogue. Some combats he doles out serious damage, and others he just helps out dealing damage. That sounds to me exactly how the class is supposed to work.


DPR in pathfinder is capped by the number of attacks you have, so yes, you will be capped in the amount of damage you can do with 1 weapon.

Let's say at level 12 you are doing your 1 attack for 1d6+6d6 (sneak attack)+7 dexterity+3magic = average damage of 34.5

A high DPR character can do 200 damage with a full attack. An optimized caster can probably do 80

Let's say you were a ratfolk with 5 natural attacks (bite through trait, 2 claws from feat, tailblade, and gore from magic item).

Your 5 attacks if all hit would be 4d4+d2+30d6+35dex+5magic= average damage of 156.


Personally, the only time I'd suggest not doing two weapon with unchained rogue is if you're going ranged, since sneak attack is near impossible to set up with range.

If I wanted a rogue feel but planned to use one weapon or a two handed weapon I'd probably go bard (Good for one handed) or slayer (Good for two handed).

These are all just my personal preferences though.


Lady-J wrote:
Scythia wrote:

Personally, the only time I'd suggest not doing two weapon with unchained rogue is if you're going ranged, since sneak attack is near impossible to set up with range.

If I wanted a rogue feel but planned to use one weapon or a two handed weapon I'd probably go bard (Good for one handed) or slayer (Good for two handed).

These are all just my personal preferences though.

unchained rogue with an elvin curveblade and power attack is beast with damage

I still think my go to would be a greatsword slayer with Power Attack.


To OP: The URogue does NOT have to use TWF to be effective. In fact, you can now utilize two-handed weapons. The Elven Branched Spear and Elven Curved Sword are both Weapon Finesse two-handed weapons, so you can get 1-1/2 your Dex bonus with these weapons. These are actually worth sinking a feat to grab (they are exotic weapons), and makes Elf, Tengu and Half-Elf (with Ancestral Arms) URogues really desirable.

Otherwise, just using a rapier is good enough in most cases. You can TWF with daggers, but you are by no means obligated. You can, however, make TWF more accurate thanks to Debilitating Strike, since you can lower your targets AC with a sneak attack, and so increase your accuracy on subsequent rounds when you use TWF by roughly +2 (+4 from debilitating strike, -2 from twf). I think this is an often overlooked quality of Debilitating Strike.


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IMHO, you are crippling yourself by going 2WF.
Because it's all theoretical damage that only works on Full Attack (AND Sneak Attack scenario)
And the lower iterative attacks are going to be much less likely to hit vs. decent AC opponents.
(like, even for viable 2WF builds, i rarely take all 3 2WF feats, the last is just too unreliable)
Any canny enemy will whenever possible avoid being in range for Full Attacks.
And you don't get any abilities to make that work with mobility.
And you have to pour a bunch of feats into it just to get that.

You are better off trying to 2-hand a weapon.
Doesn't even have to be 2H weapon, could be 1H weapon used in 2 hands.
(if you want to keep the option of a free hand for items or shield etc)
Curveblade or Branch Spear are good for using DEX as Finesse Weapons.
Before Unchained, STR build Rogue was very viable and still are.
This will let your single-attacks be much more credible damage.
That also applies to AoOs, which Reach Weapons excel at.
And of course it doesn't demand big Feat investment for basic functionality.


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1handed no Shield Dex is worse than two weapon fighting.

That said, a scout 2hander build, Dex or str, is very good. See if you can't live with that, fluffwise.


Roboctopus wrote:
But still I'm told TWF is king. Am I screwing myself? Tell me your thoughts!!

TWF might be better overall, but there are some arguments in favor of a single weapon:

* You save yourself some feats. Given a rogue only has a few talents to help with combat feats, that's more crucial than for a fighter or ranger.
* Improved Feint unlocks more follow-up feats than Two-Weapon Feint. Most are not that exciting, but Swordplay Upset should be quite nice.
* No TWF penalty can be really helpful for a class with no built-in AB boost.
* If you attack from invisibility / stealth, you can do only one sneak attack anyway.
* If you sneak attack after a charge or moving more than 5 ft (both due to Scout archetype), you can usually do only one attack anyway.


I prefer natural weapons over weapons for rogue. Of course that limits you to races with natural attacks like tengu, catfolk, ratfolk, lizardfolk, tieflings, etc.


Or maybe do a compromise maybe just pick up two for the extra attack at -2. That way when it comes up you can hit really hats with the small penalty. Use a second short sword so the penalty will be -1. That will be a huge bonus for awhile. You don't even see a second attack until lvl 8 otherwise. The more you go down that path the more penalties so just the one feat gives you a decent boost.


Honestly using an elven branched spear is pretty great on the Urogue


James Gibbons wrote:

dotting because I'm curious

Why did you choose not to two weapon fight?

I have done it before and like it, but when I picture the character in my head... he just doesn't ssem like a dual wielder.


ekibus wrote:
Or maybe do a compromise maybe just pick up two for the extra attack at -2. That way when it comes up you can hit really hats with the small penalty. Use a second short sword so the penalty will be -1. That will be a huge bonus for awhile. You don't even see a second attack until lvl 8 otherwise. The more you go down that path the more penalties so just the one feat gives you a decent boost.

What makes only -1? Being offset by my weapon focus?

The other Hesistation I have is my dice karma is TERRRRRIBLE. I typically roll 5s and lower on every d20 because the gods like me to suffer LOL. So every negative scares me xD


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You do get to add 1.5x dex, actually.

Dark Archive

I'll second that you are not crippling yourself, using those saved feats to increase the number of combats where you can get sneak attack in is a nice boost in effectiveness. Early access to twist away is also a nice defensive boost as well and something you couldn't afford to do for awhile if you where investing in all the TWF feats.
Perhaps you might want to see if there are some other feats or tricks you can use against things immune to sneak attack at he higher levels?


LuniasM wrote:
Curved Blade and Branch Spear both require either racial weapons or a feat at Level 3 for Exotic Weapon Proficiency.

Well, you can pick it up at level 2, thanks to the Combat Trick talent. But since you can choose this talent only once, it's a precious resource for a combat heavy rogue.

Shadow Lodge

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Reach on a rogue is amazing


I have a reach Rogue, it's indeed fantastic.

I'm personally a bit tired of TWF (or natural attack) Rogues. Everyone that goes Rogue seems to do it because of the higher potential damage, but it's so incredibly cookie-cutter. Well, the archetypal Strength-Rogue is also pretty cookie-cutter, but at least it's something I haven't seen a lot of.


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Roboctopus wrote:

Looking for some seasoned opinions on the matter. I am currently playing an Unchained Rogue and my team has kind of made comments about how I chose not to go TWF. I've also read that it's...kind of the thing to do.

Here is what I am working with/plans:

Fetchling Unchained Rogue with Scout Archetype currently level 4.

I fight with one short sword. In a flavor sense, it doesn't make sense for my guy to dual wield.

Feats/Talents:
1 - Weapon Focus
2 - Shadow Duplicate
3 - Twist Away
4 - Offensive Defense
5 - Dodge
6 - Bleeding Attack
7 - Flensing Strike
8 - Combat Trick: Mobility
9 - Canny Tumble
10 - Double Debilitation
11 - Spring Attack
12 - Opportunist
13 - Circling Mongoose

Not sure where I am going after this. Point is... With this set up, I should be able to sneak attack in almost any situation: On A charge, after moving 10 feet, during a Spring Attack, After an Acrobatics Tumble, with Mongoose... Combined with Flensing and Bleeding... I should do some nasty damage.

But still I'm told TWF is king. Am I screwing myself? Tell me your thoughts!!

Late to the party, but don't care. People will still take my 2 copper pieces; money is money, after all...

If you were going to TWF, then you chose the wrong archetype. Scout is in favor of single attacks that can execute Sneak Attacks without typical set-up. This means TWF is off the table, and also that you're just going to be a one-hit wonder via Vital Strike (which, for a non-full BAB class, is counter-intuitive due to its BAB requirements).

In addition, note that Sneak Attack triggers per conditional attack. So, if you're going to be making 2 Full BAB attacks (even with a -2 penalty), the odds of you landing at least one attack are greater due to the odds of being able to roll good, and in the event you roll great (and get both attacks), that's two instances of Sneak Attack you're triggering.

So in my opinion, TWF is king on principle, in that the more attacks you get, the more you utilize your Sneak Attack feature (which is your #1 source for damage, even with a maximized Dexterity and Weapon). The downside is that TWF is counterintuitive to a class with less BAB because the to-hit penalty can be a dealbreaker in a lot of rolls. If I got a dollar for every time a player missed an enemy because they used Power Attack, I'd be able to buy out Paizo.

And to be honest, the more attacks you get (at full BAB no less), the better off you are.

I'd personally suggest dipping a level in UCMonk (depending on your Wisdom/Charisma situation, Scaled Fist archetype would be in order), and specialize in Unarmed Strikes. It's the same damage as the Shortsword, you'll only delay (and not technically lose) any Sneak Attack Progression, you get the option to utilize Non-lethal damage on a whim, and the big thing is Flurry of Blows. It's a lot like TWF, but you don't suffer the penalties for it, and it doesn't cost you feats to utilize. You're also basically getting full Dexterity modifier across all of your attacks.

The big thing from there is to work towards getting Enforcer, Dazzling Display, and Shatter Defenses (which lets you basically trigger your Sneak Attacks whenever you hit a bad guy), and eventually, Medusa's Wrath, which lets you trigger two Full BAB attacks on any guy that you make Flat-footed within the round.

To sum up, you'd get four full BAB attacks (assuming you hit the guy within the round, or from the previous round), you'd debuff the bad guy you attack, and you'd trigger Sneak Attack on up to four attacks with relative ease. You also don't lose any damage, can deal Non-lethal damage at your leisure, and have the better damage type (Piercing damage sucks unless you fight Rakshasas). The only downside is no armor (unless you just want to say screw the Monk AC bonus, which is acceptable), and you have to give up your Neck slot (or have a GM who is willing to let you combine an Amulet of Natural Armor and an Amulet of Mighty Fists into a Mighty-Fisted Amulet of Natural Armor).

Dark Archive

Ierox wrote:
LuniasM wrote:
Curved Blade and Branch Spear both require either racial weapons or a feat at Level 3 for Exotic Weapon Proficiency. If you're going to spend a feat on an exotic weapon then the Estoc is probably better than the Curved Blade - it deals 2d4 Piercing rather than 1d10 Slashing but it has the same crit range and you can wield it in one or two hands. That makes you more flexible and allows you to attack with it if you get grappled so it may be worth considering.

No-one spends a feat on it though. Why would you? Racial weapon proficiency is easy to come by.

And the spear is still the better choice, due to reach.

Yeah, elven weapon proficiency is really easy to get... For an elf. Or a half-elf. Not for a Fetchling, which the OP is using. As for the spear, it is a better choice for reach and AoOs, but it also has a lower crit range, takes both hands, and can't be used while grappled. While the even branch spear is a strong weapon it is not strictly superior for all purposes.


Ierox wrote:
Roboctopus wrote:


Out of curiosity, how does 2handing a finessed weapon help me? I dont get to add DEX 1.5 right? As it stands now I have very high DEX and low STR.

I was thinking of picking up Piranha Strike if my dm doesnt allow Flensing

Yeah, you do. Agile doesn't, but unchained rogue's finesse training does.

Besides, power attack still gives better return.

That's really cool! I could always scout charge in with it two handed. That's super cool.

I don't meet the strength requirement for Power Attack. We are already level four so the first four levels I posted are already chosen and done.


LuniasM wrote:
Ierox wrote:
LuniasM wrote:
Curved Blade and Branch Spear both require either racial weapons or a feat at Level 3 for Exotic Weapon Proficiency. If you're going to spend a feat on an exotic weapon then the Estoc is probably better than the Curved Blade - it deals 2d4 Piercing rather than 1d10 Slashing but it has the same crit range and you can wield it in one or two hands. That makes you more flexible and allows you to attack with it if you get grappled so it may be worth considering.

No-one spends a feat on it though. Why would you? Racial weapon proficiency is easy to come by.

And the spear is still the better choice, due to reach.

Yeah, elven weapon proficiency is really easy to get... For an elf. Or a half-elf. Not for a Fetchling, which the OP is using. As for the spear, it is a better choice for reach and AoOs, but it also has a lower crit range, takes both hands, and can't be used while grappled. While the even branch spear is a strong weapon it is not strictly superior for all purposes.

I dislike reach weapons because of not being able to attack adjacent. If only Short heft was still a feat. In our campaign a reach rogue would NOT work. He likes dungeons, big ass monsters and mobs of fodder. In our last session we were swarmed by 9 barbarians at once. With a reach weapon I wouldn't have been able to carve up nearly as many barbs!


You can also take Martial Focus + Difficult Swings (available at BAB +5) so you can force antagonists to treat adjacent squares as difficult terrain so they can't 5' step to get in on you, they have to provoke.


Tarik Blackhands wrote:
There actually is a feat to let you remove reach from polearms. Sure you take a -2 to hit and clubs are lousy weapons in general but...it's easily available if nothing else.

Spear dancing Style let you treat a spear/polearm as a double weapon, and not reach, so you could deal the same hit/damage as before. The only catch is you'd have to take Two-Weapon Fighting in addition to weapon focus.

Better option, worship Shelyn and take Bladed Brush. Use dex to hit [and damage with finesse training] with glaive AND allows shortening of grip as a move action. Win/win.


Darksol the Painbringer wrote:
Roboctopus wrote:


Not sure where I am going after this. Point is... With this set up, I should be able to sneak attack in almost any situation: On A charge, after moving 10 feet, during a Spring Attack, After an Acrobatics Tumble, with Mongoose... Combined with Flensing and Bleeding... I should do some nasty damage.

But still I'm told TWF is king. Am I screwing myself? Tell me your thoughts!!

Late to the party, but don't care. People will still take my 2 copper pieces; money is money, after all...

Unchained Monk is an interesting idea, but maybe for a different character.

Like I said, I am already level four and I am NOT Lawful. So, I cannot take Unchained. I also already have weapon focus and my finesse training is on my sword.

Also, I have already chosen scout. I would need to remake the entire broski.


graystone wrote:
Roboctopus wrote:
In our last session we were swarmed by 9 barbarians at once. With a reach weapon I wouldn't have been able to carve up nearly as many barbs!

With combat reflexes, that's 1 + your dex AoO before they attack you [assuming they too didn't have reach]. That's a LOT of "carving" before you even get to your turn.

"mobs of fodder" are where reach shines as those to have to make it through those AoO. Having those just screams 'reach'.

The same for reach and "big ass monsters" that tend to have reach. Now that you have reach, YOU don't have to take an AoO [or roll acrobatics] to get an attack.

Additionally, reach allows for different attack angles that can allow for charge attacks a non-reach couldn't: over foe/friendly, around cover that blocked charge lane, over a square of difficult terrain, ect.

Really in your situation reach sounds like a big plus instead of not workable.

Point definitely taken! Guess I have not played with reach enough to see its applications. That being said what is letting me get my sneak attack damage on all of those attacks of opportunity ?

Also, sadly going this route would require a completely new character as I am already for levels into my spec


Roboctopus wrote:
Darksol the Painbringer wrote:
Roboctopus wrote:


Not sure where I am going after this. Point is... With this set up, I should be able to sneak attack in almost any situation: On A charge, after moving 10 feet, during a Spring Attack, After an Acrobatics Tumble, with Mongoose... Combined with Flensing and Bleeding... I should do some nasty damage.

But still I'm told TWF is king. Am I screwing myself? Tell me your thoughts!!

Late to the party, but don't care. People will still take my 2 copper pieces; money is money, after all...

Unchained Monk is an interesting idea, but maybe for a different character.

Like I said, I am already level four and I am NOT Lawful. So, I cannot take Unchained. I also already have weapon focus and my finesse training is on my sword.

Also, I have already chosen scout. I would need to remake the entire broski.

A single level of Snakebite Striker Brawler also gives you Unarmed Strike, a d6 of sneak attack, and allows you to threaten at two ranges. You might not have the damage output on it as your actual weapon, but it's at least an option to consider.


Roboctopus wrote:
graystone wrote:
Roboctopus wrote:
In our last session we were swarmed by 9 barbarians at once. With a reach weapon I wouldn't have been able to carve up nearly as many barbs!

With combat reflexes, that's 1 + your dex AoO before they attack you [assuming they too didn't have reach]. That's a LOT of "carving" before you even get to your turn.

"mobs of fodder" are where reach shines as those to have to make it through those AoO. Having those just screams 'reach'.

The same for reach and "big ass monsters" that tend to have reach. Now that you have reach, YOU don't have to take an AoO [or roll acrobatics] to get an attack.

Additionally, reach allows for different attack angles that can allow for charge attacks a non-reach couldn't: over foe/friendly, around cover that blocked charge lane, over a square of difficult terrain, ect.

Really in your situation reach sounds like a big plus instead of not workable.

Point definitely taken! Guess I have not played with reach enough to see its applications. That being said what is letting me get my sneak attack damage on all of those attacks of opportunity ?

Also, sadly going this route would require a completely new character as I am already for levels into my spec

Oh, you wouldn't get sneak attack with AoO most times [Though various flanking feats can help]. The AoO would just be free weapon damage. 1d10+dex isn't going to kill a serious threat but for fodder? It might. Even if it doesn't, it a good start especially if someone else has been able to drop an area attack on them.

Scarab Sages

Doesn't reach make it harder to maintain a flank, though? Since you're strafing on a circle with twice the usual diameter. Then again, you seem to have other options to get SA than flanking, and I guess you suffer less from losing a full attack than others.


Perspicacious Wanderer wrote:
I can now picture a very cool Rogue that worships Shelyn to take Bladed Brush and is an Eldritch Scoundrel. Almost the reach Cleric of Rogues.

I've also thought about a Shelynite Rogue who goes into Devoted Muse because Feinting is a much more viable strategy for Rogues than Swashbucklers.

Sovereign Court

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I have mixed feelings about TWF on rogues. Yes, it is the optimal way for damage, but I find rogues too squishy to sit in full attack range. I am a huge fan of rogues rushing spring attack so they can bounce in and out of combat, applying debuffs and getting the hell out of there. I think level 8 is the earliest you can have spring attack set up on a rogue, which is right around the time I start to get very wary of sitting in front of the enemy frontliners.

Sure, the foe can follow you, ready to hit you, etc., but unless they stop you from moving right in front of them, they only get ONE attack. They may even provoke to get to you, which is more than likely to be worth it. I find mobile combat is tactically sound, but makes fights longer/doesn't have impressive numbers. As a result, people avoid building around it.

This isn't even considering the opportunity cost of enchanting two weapons. IMO, you can do A LOT more stuff with the cash you save than with the enchantments on the second weapon.

Nothing says you can't take the first TWF feat for the times you can make great use of it though. There are undoubtedly instances where TWF is what you should do, it simply isn't every fight.

TL;DR - TWF is DPR king, but not sitting in front of enemy frontliners = living

Scarab Sages

If you're locked into the short sword for DEX to damage, you can't, unfortunately, make use of two-handing for 1 1/2x DEX, since it's a light weapon, not a one-handed weapon. You could take Piranha Strike and Flensing Strike. I don't see anything in either feat that would make them mutually exclusive. Since you're not taking a penalty for TWF, you can better afford the penalty from Piranha Strike, and it's a nice boost to damage.

I would take Spring Attack at 9th and Canny Tumble at 11th. You've already got Mobility at 8th, and Skirmisher comes online at 8th level, so go ahead and take advantage of it as soon as you can. thata what your whole archetype was built to do, and it doesn't require a successful acrobatics roll like Canny Tumble does.

Offensive Defense is not a rogue talent that is normally available to Unchained Rogues. It was essentially rolled into Debilitating Strike. Did your GM allow it on an exception, or were you both just unaware that it isn't normally legal for an Unchained Rogue? If you GM is ok with you gaining the benefit of both Offensive Defense and Debilitating Strike, then stick with it. If not, then ask if you can take the Weapon Training talent for Weapon Focus (Shortsword) and retrain your level 1 feat to Dodge. That would let you take Mobility at 5th or 7th, and Spring Attack with Combat Trick at 8th, the same time you get Skirmisher.


Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Roleplaying Guild Subscriber
Gummy Bear wrote:
I think level 8 is the earliest you can have spring attack set up on a rogue, which is right around the time I start to get very wary of sitting in front of the enemy frontliners.

Spring Attack requires Dodge, Mobility and BAB +4, making the earliest level 6 if you spend your one combat trick talent to pick it up. Waiting one additional level allows you to pick up Circling Mongoose at level 8.

I agree that TWF is not required on a rogue. Part of my dislike for it is the attack penalty. A hit does a lot more damage than a miss.

You might also want to think about having another trick up your sleeve. A rogue can be great at feinting with the proper feats.


Matt2VK wrote:

I cheated a bit with my unchained rogue. I took 2 levels of magus and as long as I can make a concentration check I get to attack twice with spell combat.

Did burn a feat for casting defensively and a trait to boost it by +2 but I think the trade offs were worth it.

This is a decent idea, the main problem comes from the Magi lack of spells per day. You'll must likely get 3 spell strikes per day (unless you have high int) before you have to go back to acid splashing for 1d3.

Just a note for weapon profiencies, you can take an ioun stone. The cracked white pyramid can make any weapon as if it were martial profiency.


Terevalis Unctio of House Mysti wrote:
How did you get weapon focus at 1st level?

Sounds like somebody cheated the rules, and didn't realize that Weapon Focus requires BAB +1 (which a 1st level Rogue doesn't meet).

Even so, he can just take a Rogue Talent which grants Weapon Focus, so taking Weapon Focus at 1st level is just a waste. Improved Initiative, on the other hand...


Roboctopus wrote:
Darksol the Painbringer wrote:
Roboctopus wrote:


Not sure where I am going after this. Point is... With this set up, I should be able to sneak attack in almost any situation: On A charge, after moving 10 feet, during a Spring Attack, After an Acrobatics Tumble, with Mongoose... Combined with Flensing and Bleeding... I should do some nasty damage.

But still I'm told TWF is king. Am I screwing myself? Tell me your thoughts!!

Late to the party, but don't care. People will still take my 2 copper pieces; money is money, after all...

Unchained Monk is an interesting idea, but maybe for a different character.

Like I said, I am already level four and I am NOT Lawful. So, I cannot take Unchained. I also already have weapon focus and my finesse training is on my sword.

Also, I have already chosen scout. I would need to remake the entire broski.

Yes, the Lawful alignment is a problem, but dipping a level in Snakebite Brawler gives you 11D6 Sneak Attack by 20th level, which is actually higher than simply going pure Rogue. The Saves and BAB boost helps too. (And as I pointed out, Weapon Focus at 1st level for a Rogue is illegal unless you retrained for it.)

There's the Retraining rules from Ultimate Campaign. It costs money and downtime, but it doesn't require a completely new character. But if you're dead set on being a Scout without any sort of changes you're willing to make to accommodate the concept of TWF (which the Scout archetype's design is counterintuitive towards), then that beckons the question of the purpose of asking for advice on what to do.

At the end of the day, it's your character, and you do with it what you want. I already told you that the Scout archetype is counterintuitive to the idea of pumping out the Sneak Attack dice, and that if you want to better accommodate TWF (or a pseudo form of it, such as Flurry of Blows), you'll need to change and adapt to it. There are rules in the game that permit you to do so without completely remaking the character, but if you don't want to take them because you feel like TWF is overrated, then that's your call. Objectively speaking, if you're wanting to deal tons of damage, single attacks are not how a Rogue makes himself competent compared to other martials.


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Then don't wield two weapons. Tell your friend that you're playing the character the way you want to play, and he can take his TWF ideology and shove it right back up the same place where he puts his stick at.

It's really that simple.


I'm just thinking that if you're doing one attack - with spring attack or a charge it will be just one - it's better to focus on debuffs than damage. Bleeding attack is (weak) damage rather than a debuff and is incompatible with offensive defense, it might be better to switch it out for something else. Maybe poison use, or ninja trick: redirect force, or underhanded trick.


He's gonna stack Bleeding Attack with Flensing Strike and Debilitating Injury to basically nuke a bad guy's armor to nothing. (Of course, that's only assuming they have Natural Armor. Some do, but not a lot of them would unless they invest in the Big 6.)

Hell, with the Snakebite Brawler dip and going Unarmed Strikes, he can take the same set-up, pick up Enforcer for free Intimidations (which further reduce attack rolls and saves), grab the Thug archetype to apply the Sickened condition (more penalty to saves, attack rolls, and damage as well), and eventually grab Shatter Defenses to make them Flat-footed on top of it.


From a party perspective, doing 1 attack per round at high level doing maybe 35 damage is a character that makes very little difference to the party's success in combat. Whether that sucks is up to you.

That's the reason martials try their best to full attack all the time. This is aside from whether you 2WF or not. Your character should be prepared to full attack from a flank position or when opponent is denied dex bonus (this is why some rogues focus on shatter defenses, some focus on two weapon feint, some try to be invisible, some get a mount and get pack flanking, or a ratfolk can get it from scurrying swarmer).

I prefer natural attacks over 2WF and you can add a gore or bite with items and it's also possible to UMD scrolls of monstrous physique to get more attacks.


Ah, bleeding attack's a prereq. That explains it - I just read flensing strike.


nicholas storm wrote:

From a party perspective, doing 1 attack per round at high level doing maybe 35 damage is a character that makes very little difference to the party's success in combat. Whether that sucks is up to you.

I mean, obviously if I can do a full round attack when I get more than one attack per round I am going to try and do that as often as possible. Shredding their defenses, lowering their to hit and causing them to bleed as secondaries are all helpful in my opinion. The added mobility is just to give me options and survivability.

Sadly we have no caster at all, so we won't have haste. I'll have to eventually pick up boots of speed or something similar.

I guess I shine out of combat more because I have a 20 int and almost every skill in the game with a decent success rate.


Link to other thread on same topic (duplicated original post).

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