Roboctopus's page

Roboctopus wrote:

Son of a b~+#%. Well I am glad I learned this before buying a Spellstoring Weapon. Ugh. Now I dont even want major magic... I guess I could get vanish ... or I could just go back to bleeding attack ..,

Chill Touch as Major Magic is still totally worthwhile, for 3 x level touch attacks per day... Or learn to UMD a 5th-level wand of it. As far as I can see, the charges have no expiration date, so you could conceivably cast it in advance and carry it around with you until you need it. Try not to shake any hands in the meantime.

Shield and Vanish are also good choices.

I feel conflicted on Chill for a number of reasons.

I guess I need to take some white guy thinking time on this.

Well, you can't use your shocking grasp in a spell storing weapon either. Spell-like abilities are not spells. You don't cast them, you activate them.

As for chill touch, you gain 1 touch per level each time you use it. You can make on touch when you activate the spell as a free action, and then you can use your iterative attacks to make your normal number of attacks per round on later turns.

Son of a b#~&&. Well I am glad I learned this before buying a Spellstoring Weapon. Ugh. Now I dont even want major magic... I guess I could get vanish ... or I could just go back to bleeding attack ..,

I'd recommend using chill touch instead of shocking grasp for major magic. Shocking grasp is one touch attack SA and done. Chill Touch will give you 6 attacks vs touch, debuff str, or allow control vs undead.

How does chill touch interact with a spell storing weapon? The main appeal of going this route is being able to cast the spell with my weapon for a big burst of damage. Also how many times can I use chill touch ? Once per round or can I take all of those at touch of tax in one round?

Roboctopus wrote:

I am going to get Vambraces of Duelist made so ny offhand never has penalties.

is there an upgraded vertion of those?

I don't think so. But I'll take it!

So an update:

Our DM leveled us to 5 last night and showered us with WAY more money than we should have. (Approx 15k each). Now we can't get everything we want, but we have options and can hire someone to make us stuff.

He let me change out Offensive Defense for Minor Magic and I am going to take Major Magic: Shocking Grasp at 6.

I also picked up TWF.

I am going to get Vambraces of Duelist made so ny offhand never has penalties. I am also going to get a Spellstoring weapon for shocking grasp sneaks.

chaoseffect wrote:

...stuff about stealth...

Except all of this is not directly related to 2WF and a 2HW-rogue could do it just as well (even better is you consider that 2HW is less feat-hungry than 2WF, so you may have more feat slots for your stealth stuff).

So, the comparison remains unchanged: the 2WF-rogue is (allegedly) the "king of DPR" if he can full-attack + sneak-attack. In any combat situation where he is denied one or the other, he (allegedly) *sucks*.

** spoiler omitted **

If we're still going at 15th level, I feel like we'll have so many magic items that it won't matter. I can pick up one feat of TWF just for the extra attack and then still do most of what I wanted. My primary goal was to get as many ways to sneak attack as easily as possible and I think I am covering that base.

Going against the general consensus here, I think Two Weapon Fighting Rogue is pretty sweet, at least at high level. Focus stealth and you can go toe to toe all day without the enemy really being able to do too much about it: Hell Cat Stealth, Dampen Presence, Conceal Scent, some mundane alchemical options and spells... pump stealth and defeat extraordinary/supernatural senses. The level 15 skill unlock counts all attacks after you break stealth for a turn as sneak attacks, so break stealth full attack, 5ft step hide. Upgrade Swords of Subtlety for that sweet extra +4 on all sneak attacks. If you are an evil a~*$*&+, worship Shax and at level 20 get extra sneak attack dice plus +2 extra damage per die via Demonic Obedience.

That may not be viable for starting low level, but TWF just makes a high level rogue into a wrecking machine. I'd say it's worth having in time for your rank 15 Stealth unlock at the very least.

Omfg sword of subtlety GIVE IT TO ME

magus is hardly to powerful they can be delt with if the gm knows what they are doing and doesnt just have 1 combat a day. i know they seem strong compared to things like rogues and fighters but thats because they are too weak not that the magus is to strong

I dont think he is an experienced DM. Long time player, but dont think he has dmed a ton

Roboctopus wrote:

Not sure what VMC means but Magus was banned from the campaign for being too powerful:/ or I wouldn't be playing a rogue lol

VMC = Variant Multiclassing (from Pathfinder Unchained). Sounds like other arcane casters were also banned for being too powerful, judging from the party not having any.

No he didnt ban other casters, my party just doesnt like casters haha! One guy actually says that "magic is womens work".

I may just pick up the first feat so I get that one extra attack... I don't NEED flensing strike, and I still don't know if I am allowed to take it. I have a lot of options before me. A lot that I didn't even think about.

Roboctopus wrote:

Ferious Thune wrote:

It's a question of what role you want to fill in combat. If you're getting the wand of haste to improve your DPR, then you're better off with the boots. If you're ok serving a support roll at the start of combat, then haste is a fantastic buff that will ultimately pobably create more of an increase in damage for the party than you making a full round attack. It does mean spending your first round buffing the party instead of getting a sneak attack off against a flat-footed opponent.

Is there someone in the group who would alternate using the wand with you, and with the UMD to do it? 1st fight, you spend your turn using it, they get to do something offensive. 2nd fight they spend their turn, and you get to melee.

Also, since haste is for the party's benefit, not just yours, you may be able to convince them that the wand should be bought from party treasure and not your cut.

Yeah I am definitely going to say party treasure. They will go for it, they're good about stuff like that. Sadly I am the only player with UMD so if we go that route, it's on me. Which is fine I guess.

Can you reliably hit the UMD DC20 that you need? Otherwise you're burning more actions.

At 4th level I am at +10 right now for my umd. I would assume itll be a few levels til we buy it so by then I'll be lets say ... +12 or +13?

It's a question of what role you want to fill in combat. If you're getting the wand of haste to improve your DPR, then you're better off with the boots. If you're ok serving a support roll at the start of combat, then haste is a fantastic buff that will ultimately pobably create more of an increase in damage for the party than you making a full round attack. It does mean spending your first round buffing the party instead of getting a sneak attack off against a flat-footed opponent.

Is there someone in the group who would alternate using the wand with you, and with the UMD to do it? 1st fight, you spend your turn using it, they get to do something offensive. 2nd fight they spend their turn, and you get to melee.

Also, since haste is for the party's benefit, not just yours, you may be able to convince them that the wand should be bought from party treasure and not your cut.

Yeah I am definitely going to say party treasure. They will go for it, they're good about stuff like that. Sadly I am the only player with UMD so if we go that route, it's on me. Which is fine I guess.

Roboctopus wrote:

_Ozy_ wrote:

You might be better off with Boots of Speed.

I was also thinking this but for the same price I have 50 uses of full party haste and then I can wear Daredevil Boots to avoid AOO 10 rounds a day

Action economy matters. You would need a move action to draw the wand, a standard action to use it, and then unless you want to just drop your valuable wand on the ground, a move action to put it away.

That's a lot of actions for a 5 round spell, in the middle of combat...compare that to free action haste from the boots.

But sure, the wand has the advantage of full-party haste, especially if your party has a lot of martials who like to full-attack.

That makes sense... most of our party is martials... but yeah that makes sense about kinda screwing myself out of two rounds

Matt2VK wrote:

Darksol the Painbringer wrote:

Fuzzy-Wuzzy wrote:

Roboctopus wrote:

Darksol the Painbringer wrote:

Hmmm, that I don't know. Based on how Arcane Tricksters operate, probably not.

Hmm. Others are saying on forums that they can do SA with Touch Spells... So it may still be useful... I am conflicted.

I can't recall any rule saying that SA needs to be performed with a weapon. You need an attack roll and HP damage. No reason a touch spell wouldn't work. You're just applying your shocking grasp to a vital spot.

It's not that the SA has to be performed with a weapon, it's that Sneak Attack is usually considered physical damage, which is affected by Damage Reduction.

Granted, there is a FAQ regarding Sneak Attack with Scorching Ray, but I find that you still have to have the Arcane Trickster capstone in order to actually apply Sneak Attack to it, since that is the entire point of the Arcane Trickster capstone.

Actually not true.

You can apply SA to any damage type as long as you make a attack roll and target allows SA damage.

The Arcane Trickster cap ability allows applying SA to ANY spell that deals damage.
Example: Spell - Fireball you can't apply SA damage, no attack roll. With Arcane Trickster cap ability that Fireball can now deal SA damage if targets are flat footed.

And this means that if you make a Touch Attack (or close enough Ranged Touch Attack) with a spell that does damage, this attack qualifies for Sneak Attack damage, but is more likely to hit than a normal weapon attack. This works best if the spell gives multiple attacks per casting, like Chill Touch or Frostbite. If you go VMC Magus (since you are already at 4th level, when you are about to go to 5th level, see if you can retrain your 3rd level feat to be at 5th level to make room for VMC Magus I at 3rd level), you can also apply these spells through your weapon attacks, which trades out the above advantage for the advantage of being able to apply...

Not sure what VMC means but Magus was banned from the campaign for being too powerful:/ or I wouldn't be playing a rogue lol

You might be better off with Boots of Speed.

I was also thinking this but for the same price I have 50 uses of full party haste and then I can wear Daredevil Boots to avoid AOO 10 rounds a day

I have a Kitsuna Rogue inPFS right now. For combat, he's generic but decent. TWF chain for multiple shortsword attacks. His shtick is that he went Minor Magic into Major Magic for Vanish. Now he can play pretend-ninja and sneak into position. The first attack in his chain is very likely to hit, and Debilitating Strike can bump down their AC to make the rest of his blows more accurate.

As long as you can use a fancy trick to make that first blow stick, the rest of TWF isn't so bad. True Strike is another option with even more accuracy, but the timing makes it awkward to cast for melee and it has far less utility.

Also, looking at your party their damage output isn't optimal but I'm guessing they're having a lot of fun with their characters so it's cool. The lack of casters would be worrying, but it's a homegame so it can work. Heck, if you can keep Use Magic Device up to par, the party might want to chip in for scrolls of Haste.

I am thinking of pooling for a wand of haste down the road. Not having any mage at all is definitely weird. Though I will say, in the other campaign we played, my Bard was the only caster... i guess they dont like casters lol.

I still may consider twf... i have a few ideas and paths I may look into... i am just having commitment issues lol

Terevalis Unctio of House Mysti wrote:

First level rogues don't have a +1 bab and thus don't qualify for weapon focus.

*throws horse corpse whose cause of death was severe blunt force trauma*

LOL. Honestly I probably flubbed that up because I entered the Campaign already level 2.

Hmmm, that I don't know. Based on how Arcane Tricksters operate, probably not.

Hmm. Others are saying on forums that they can do SA with Touch Spells... So it may still be useful... I am conflicted.

Roboctopus wrote:

UnArcaneElection wrote:

Roboctopus wrote:

{. . .}

Sadly we have no caster at all, so we won't have haste. I'll have to eventually pick up boots of speed or something similar.

I guess I shine out of combat more because I have a 20 int and almost every skill in the game with a decent success rate.

With that much Intelligence, you could actually get a pretty good DC on a Major Magic casting such as Chill Touch. A few days ago, I even saw a feat or Rogue Talent that lets you use a spellbook to swap the spell you choose for Major Magic, but now I can't find it again. Normally, you would leave this kind of thing to the party arcane caster, but since your party doesn't have one, here's a chance to shine.

If I took it at like...higher levels... I could use Shocking Grasp multiple times per day and Sneak Attack with an extra 5d6 every time. ....Seems attractive, but may be a trap.

Well, considering you're already invested in being a one-hit wonder, and Touch Spells by themselves are one-hit wonders, I find the idea would be conducive.

I mean, you could get a Spellstoring Shortsword if you went this route, which means you can just cast your Major Magic talent into the Shortsword, charge an enemy, get full Sneak Attack, plus your Shocking Grasp of 5D6, and you're going to be doing a lot of damage.

If you could find a way to make that Shocking Grasp Intensified through your benefits (perhaps UMD a Metamagic Rod to store into the weapon?), 10D6 Shocking Grasp + 10D6 Sneak Attack + 1D6 Weapon + Dexterity = Tons of Burst Damage.

That actually could be pretty fun ... I could drop bleeding attack and Flensing Strike for Minor/Major magic and have it by 7th... or see if I can retrain Offensive Defensive and get it by 6th...

Can I sneak attack with just a touch? In case I don't get a spellstoring weapon any time soon?

Roboctopus wrote:

I also, given our party's make up... don't think we'll be a high damage group anyway

If your GM is creating adventures specially for your group, then being a suboptimal rogue who just uses a shortsword is probably fine.

If you GM is trying to run printed material of standard difficulty, a strong character who can compensate for the monk's weak damage output might be a necessity.

Yes this is all home made, he doesn't use source material. So I think you may be right. I don't think he would do anything we can't handle.

OP, you posted this thread twice. Here is the link to the other one that people have been posting on for your reference.

Link

Damn ... what a stupid idiot. I'm sorry -_-. Thanks for pointing that out for me!

Roboctopus wrote:

{. . .}

Sadly we have no caster at all, so we won't have haste. I'll have to eventually pick up boots of speed or something similar.

I guess I shine out of combat more because I have a 20 int and almost every skill in the game with a decent success rate.

With that much Intelligence, you could actually get a pretty good DC on a Major Magic casting such as Chill Touch. A few days ago, I even saw a feat or Rogue Talent that lets you use a spellbook to swap the spell you choose for Major Magic, but now I can't find it again. Normally, you would leave this kind of thing to the party arcane caster, but since your party doesn't have one, here's a chance to shine.

If I took it at like...higher levels... I could use Shocking Grasp multiple times per day and Sneak Attack with an extra 5d6 every time. ....Seems attractive, but may be a trap.

well current one I'm in is stock full of traps so might have something to do with it. Also not JUST traps that was a blanket statement but general skill monkey stuff. I'm not really that used to rogues being that terribly damaging.

We run into A LOT OF TRAPS. And yeah, I am a huge skill monkey. I have points in almost every knowledge, I can craft some minor alchemical s*#! (mostly poison)... We have avoided several combats simply by me using my skill list to solve a puzzle.

From a party perspective, doing 1 attack per round at high level doing maybe 35 damage is a character that makes very little difference to the party's success in combat. Whether that sucks is up to you.

I also, given our party's make up... don't think we'll be a high damage group anyway:

Goblin Crane Style Monk of the Four Winds (does an average of 5-10 damage per round at level 4)

Aldori Swordlord (does big boy damage)

Ranger Dragon Warden who is specced for archery but melees most of the time?

Inquisitor

From a party perspective, doing 1 attack per round at high level doing maybe 35 damage is a character that makes very little difference to the party's success in combat. Whether that sucks is up to you.

I mean, obviously if I can do a full round attack when I get more than one attack per round I am going to try and do that as often as possible. Shredding their defenses, lowering their to hit and causing them to bleed as secondaries are all helpful in my opinion. The added mobility is just to give me options and survivability.

Sadly we have no caster at all, so we won't have haste. I'll have to eventually pick up boots of speed or something similar.

I guess I shine out of combat more because I have a 20 int and almost every skill in the game with a decent success rate.

Roboctopus wrote:

Darksol the Painbringer wrote:

Roboctopus wrote:

Not sure where I am going after this. Point is... With this set up, I should be able to sneak attack in almost any situation: On A charge, after moving 10 feet, during a Spring Attack, After an Acrobatics Tumble, with Mongoose... Combined with Flensing and Bleeding... I should do some nasty damage.

But still I'm told TWF is king. Am I screwing myself? Tell me your thoughts!!

Late to the party, but don't care. People will still take my 2 copper pieces; money is money, after all...

Unchained Monk is an interesting idea, but maybe for a different character.

Like I said, I am already level four and I am NOT Lawful. So, I cannot take Unchained. I also already have weapon focus and my finesse training is on my sword.

Also, I have already chosen scout. I would need to remake the entire broski.

Yes, the Lawful alignment is a problem, but dipping a level in Snakebite Brawler gives you 11D6 Sneak Attack by 20th level, which is actually higher than simply going pure Rogue. The Saves and BAB boost helps too. (And as I pointed out, Weapon Focus at 1st level for a Rogue is illegal unless you retrained for it.)

There's the Retraining rules from Ultimate Campaign. It costs money and downtime, but it doesn't require a completely new character. But if you're dead set on being a Scout without any sort of changes you're willing to make to accommodate the concept of TWF (which the Scout archetype's design is counterintuitive towards), then that beckons the question of the purpose of asking for advice on what to do.

At the end of the day, it's your character, and you do with it what you want. I already told you that the Scout archetype is counterintuitive to the idea of pumping out the Sneak Attack dice, and that if you want to better accommodate TWF (or a pseudo form of it, such as Flurry of Blows), you'll need to change and adapt to it. There are rules in the game that permit you to do so...

My main question was simply, given my choices, how can I make the best of my situation and will I be garbage. I love the scout archetype and think it fits perfectly for the flavor of the character, so I don't want to give it up at all. It also unlocks two new ways to sneak attack, which for me was huge because it's such a pain to always be flanking.

Doing anything with unarmed strikes does not fit him at all, as he is described as sort of skinny and frail. Yes, I realize that I screwed up with WF at level one. Like I said in my last comment, totally blanked on it.

I could still fit TWF into my build.. if I dropped Flensing, which I am still unsure if he'll let me take. There would be plenty of opportunity to use it (especially when I get to Mongoose). I just...don't picture my character wielding two weapons when I close my eyes and think about it.

How did you get weapon focus at 1st level?

Honestly, I didn't even think about it until you brought it up. Originally, the DM didn't let me choose Unchained Rogue because he thought it would be overpowered. I was going to go down the Slashing Grace Tree, which required me to have Weapon Focus, so when I made my character I just grabbed it without thinking twice. After a few sessions, the other players were like... "Why the f did you not let him be unchained? stop being an a-hole, rogues suck" and he changed his mind and let me fix a few things. I kept Weapon Focus because I felt it was helping.

If you're locked into the short sword for DEX to damage, you can't, unfortunately, make use of two-handing for 1 1/2x DEX, since it's a light weapon, not a one-handed weapon. You could take Piranha Strike and Flensing Strike. I don't see anything in either feat that would make them mutually exclusive. Since you're not taking a penalty for TWF, you can better afford the penalty from Piranha Strike, and it's a nice boost to damage.

I would take Spring Attack at 9th and Canny Tumble at 11th. You've already got Mobility at 8th, and Skirmisher comes online at 8th level, so go ahead and take advantage of it as soon as you can. thata what your whole archetype was built to do, and it doesn't require a successful acrobatics roll like Canny Tumble does.

Offensive Defense is not a rogue talent that is normally available to Unchained Rogues. It was essentially rolled into Debilitating Strike. Did your GM allow it on an exception, or were you both just unaware that it isn't normally legal for an Unchained Rogue? If you GM is ok with you gaining the benefit of both Offensive Defense and Debilitating Strike, then stick with it. If not, then ask if you can take the Weapon Training talent for Weapon Focus (Shortsword) and retrain your level 1 feat to Dodge. That would let you take Mobility at 5th or 7th, and Spring Attack with Combat Trick at 8th, the same time you get Skirmisher.

Thank you for actually taking the time to comment on my situation instead of just telling me to make a new character LOL. I can take spring attack at 9. Makes sense. I'll switch that around.

I am unsure if he will let me take flensing since it is a "monster feat" but he is super laid back so he probably will. If not, definitely gonna do Piranha.

Offensive Defense he didnt care at all. I was like "hey can I take this" and he was like "sure whatever you need all the help you can get" LOL

Roboctopus wrote:

In our last session we were swarmed by 9 barbarians at once. With a reach weapon I wouldn't have been able to carve up nearly as many barbs!

With combat reflexes, that's 1 + your dex AoO before they attack you [assuming they too didn't have reach]. That's a LOT of "carving" before you even get to your turn.

"mobs of fodder" are where reach shines as those to have to make it through those AoO. Having those just screams 'reach'.

The same for reach and "big ass monsters" that tend to have reach. Now that you have reach, YOU don't have to take an AoO [or roll acrobatics] to get an attack.

Additionally, reach allows for different attack angles that can allow for charge attacks a non-reach couldn't: over foe/friendly, around cover that blocked charge lane, over a square of difficult terrain, ect.

Really in your situation reach sounds like a big plus instead of not workable.

Point definitely taken! Guess I have not played with reach enough to see its applications. That being said what is letting me get my sneak attack damage on all of those attacks of opportunity ?

Also, sadly going this route would require a completely new character as I am already for levels into my spec

Tarik Blackhands wrote:

There actually is a feat to let you remove reach from polearms. Sure you take a -2 to hit and clubs are lousy weapons in general but...it's easily available if nothing else.

Spear dancing Style let you treat a spear/polearm as a double weapon, and not reach, so you could deal the same hit/damage as before. The only catch is you'd have to take Two-Weapon Fighting in addition to weapon focus.

Better option, worship Shelyn and take Bladed Brush. Use dex to hit [and damage with finesse training] with glaive AND allows shortening of grip as a move action. Win/win.

Bladed Brush is outrageously cool! lol I thank you for showing me that. I may use it in the future.

Roboctopus wrote:

Not sure where I am going after this. Point is... With this set up, I should be able to sneak attack in almost any situation: On A charge, after moving 10 feet, during a Spring Attack, After an Acrobatics Tumble, with Mongoose... Combined with Flensing and Bleeding... I should do some nasty damage.

But still I'm told TWF is king. Am I screwing myself? Tell me your thoughts!!

Late to the party, but don't care. People will still take my 2 copper pieces; money is money, after all...

Unchained Monk is an interesting idea, but maybe for a different character.

Like I said, I am already level four and I am NOT Lawful. So, I cannot take Unchained. I also already have weapon focus and my finesse training is on my sword.

Also, I have already chosen scout. I would need to remake the entire broski.

Ierox wrote:

LuniasM wrote:

Curved Blade and Branch Spear both require either racial weapons or a feat at Level 3 for Exotic Weapon Proficiency. If you're going to spend a feat on an exotic weapon then the Estoc is probably better than the Curved Blade - it deals 2d4 Piercing rather than 1d10 Slashing but it has the same crit range and you can wield it in one or two hands. That makes you more flexible and allows you to attack with it if you get grappled so it may be worth considering.

No-one spends a feat on it though. Why would you? Racial weapon proficiency is easy to come by.

And the spear is still the better choice, due to reach.

Yeah, elven weapon proficiency is really easy to get... For an elf. Or a half-elf. Not for a Fetchling, which the OP is using. As for the spear, it is a better choice for reach and AoOs, but it also has a lower crit range, takes both hands, and can't be used while grappled. While the even branch spear is a strong weapon it is not strictly superior for all purposes.

I dislike reach weapons because of not being able to attack adjacent. If only Short heft was still a feat. In our campaign a reach rogue would NOT work. He likes dungeons, big ass monsters and mobs of fodder. In our last session we were swarmed by 9 barbarians at once. With a reach weapon I wouldn't have been able to carve up nearly as many barbs!

Roboctopus wrote:

Out of curiosity, how does 2handing a finessed weapon help me? I dont get to add DEX 1.5 right? As it stands now I have very high DEX and low STR.

I was thinking of picking up Piranha Strike if my dm doesnt allow Flensing

Yeah, you do. Agile doesn't, but unchained rogue's finesse training does.

Besides, power attack still gives better return.

That's really cool! I could always scout charge in with it two handed. That's super cool.

I don't meet the strength requirement for Power Attack. We are already level four so the first four levels I posted are already chosen and done.

Or maybe do a compromise maybe just pick up two for the extra attack at -2. That way when it comes up you can hit really hats with the small penalty. Use a second short sword so the penalty will be -1. That will be a huge bonus for awhile. You don't even see a second attack until lvl 8 otherwise. The more you go down that path the more penalties so just the one feat gives you a decent boost.

What makes only -1? Being offset by my weapon focus?

The other Hesistation I have is my dice karma is TERRRRRIBLE. I typically roll 5s and lower on every d20 because the gods like me to suffer LOL. So every negative scares me xD

IMHO, you are crippling yourself by going 2WF.

Because it's all theoretical damage that only works on Full Attack (AND Sneak Attack scenario)
And the lower iterative attacks are going to be much less likely to hit vs. decent AC opponents.
(like, even for viable 2WF builds, i rarely take all 3 2WF feats, the last is just too unreliable)
Any canny enemy will whenever possible avoid being in range for Full Attacks.
And you don't get any abilities to make that work with mobility.
And you have to pour a bunch of feats into it just to get that.

You are better off trying to 2-hand a weapon.
Doesn't even have to be 2H weapon, could be 1H weapon used in 2 hands.
(if you want to keep the option of a free hand for items or shield etc)
Curveblade or Branch Spear are good for using DEX as Finesse Weapons.
Before Unchained, STR build Rogue was very viable and still are.
This will let your single-attacks be much more credible damage.
That also applies to AoOs, which Reach Weapons excel at.
And of course it doesn't demand big Feat investment for basic functionality.

Out of curiosity, how does 2handing a finessed weapon help me? I dont get to add DEX 1.5 right? As it stands now I have very high DEX and low STR.

I was thinking of picking up Piranha Strike if my dm doesnt allow Flensing

dotting because I'm curious

Why did you choose not to two weapon fight?

I have done it before and like it, but when I picture the character in my head... he just doesn't ssem like a dual wielder.

Looking for some seasoned opinions on the matter. I am currently playing an Unchained Rogue and my team has kind of made comments about how I chose not to go TWF. I've also read that it's...kind of the thing to do.

Here is what I am working with/plans:

Fetchling Unchained Rogue with Scout Archetype currently level 4.

I fight with one short sword. In a flavor sense, it doesn't make sense for my guy to dual wield.

Feats/Talents:
1 - Weapon Focus
2 - Shadow Duplicate
3 - Twist Away
4 - Offensive Defense
5 - Dodge
6 - Bleeding Attack
7 - Flensing Strike
8 - Combat Trick: Mobility
9 - Canny Tumble
10 - Double Debilitation
11 - Spring Attack
12 - Opportunist
13 - Circling Mongoose

Not sure where I am going after this. Point is... With this set up, I should be able to sneak attack in almost any situation: On A charge, after moving 10 feet, during a Spring Attack, After an Acrobatics Tumble, with Mongoose... Combined with Flensing and Bleeding... I should do some nasty damage.

But still I'm told TWF is king. Am I screwing myself? Tell me your thoughts!!

Also, if your current DM(s) swap to inherent bonuses instead of stat items, make sure to discuss how that affects Eidolons and companions. Because not having a way to boost your snakebro with permenant enhancement bonses could turn out to be annoying, depending on how you guys handle CR and encounters.

Rosc, I am confused....

Can Eidolon's wear equipment? Would not having + bonus stat gear harm my Eidolon? If this is true, then maybe I'll need to discuss him giving the Eidolon stat boosts similar to the PCs...

EDIT: Well I guess I missed that... apparently they CAN wear equipment. Huh.

What could a Serpent even wear? a Necklace? Could he wear a belt?

So I read more on mounted archery... forget that feat! I don't need it :) I can skip mounted combat and mounted archery and maybe add extra evolutions

Mounted archery stuff: read the mounted archery rules and feat closely, you only need the feat if your mount takes a double move.

The mount evolution, talk to your gm about this one, what does it do? Can you ride a peoperly sized eidolon without it if you take the ride skill penalty for non-proper mount?

Weapon choice for archery: do you expect to get to a level where your lower iteratives will have a chance of hitting? Do you have enough strength for the damage bonus on a comp longbow to really matter? Based on your answers to this save the weapon prof and use a light crossbow. Free skill focus in umd or perception would be cool, or ride maybe.

Let me try to answer some of your questions by telling you a bit more about my group...

Typically, the DMs (we rotate) are usually pretty liberal. We roll stats. The last set of characters we made... not only did he pump a lot of our stats up, but we are using the progression rules wherein there are no stat boosing magic items. At 4th we gain +2 to one stat and +1 to two other stats. We also get +1 AC and saves every few levels.

If we use the rules, then I definitely will have the stat budget for archery heavy with a comp bow. I am also thinking of not going crazy with his CHA because I'll likely only take buffs. I am considering Focused Shot for INT to damage on bow.

I am sure he'll be cool and lenient with the eidolon being mounted if I take ride and stuff.

A grapple shouldn't take any longer than any other attack. It may even be faster, since you don't roll for damage or critical hits. It's certainly faster than a multi-attack.

Wouldn't it be bad until he was large ? We Almost never fight humanoids in pretty much any campaign that I have played with this team so far .. it's always big scary monsters.

Focusing on the bite would also be an important part of a grapple build if you change your mind about that.

My reasons for not liking grapple is mostly because my group doesn't like long winded mechanics ... they were very nervous about me requesting summoner because they said that summoners usually take forever to do their turns. In my experience grapple always takes forever.

Roboctopus wrote:

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I actually am going Spirit Summoner and giving up Summon Monster. So I won't be doing any of that... I also find grappling to be very cumbersome. I do like your idea of evolution surge.

Can I use evolution surge to use breath weapon more than once a day? Like if I cast the spell twice can he use the power twice?

Evo Surge gives you 4 points worth of stuff, and the 4 point version of Breath Weapon is only once per day, so no. However, Greater Evolution Surge gives you 6 points, meaning you can cast it for Breath Weapon while spending the 2 extra points to boost it to 3 times per day. It's also your best option for dealing with Swarms.

If you don't want to do Grapple and you aren't feeling the multiple limbs and attacks, might I humbly suggest focusing on the bite? You can evolve it to have more base damage, give it Trip, and even give it that 1.5 Strength mod to damage by spending a second point in Bite. Heck, it already has Reach built in and Combat Reflexes can make the whole combo pretty dangerous.

I was thinking something very similar! I am going to focus a lot on his bite to make it deal more damage and fill out more of his evolutions to fit his flavor. I can still have four attacks per round with his tail slap and wing buffet (even if it's not great) After getting large and if I spend one more point on Improved damage, his wings will do okay damage...

I may save points on his breath with evo surge...

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I actually am going Spirit Summoner and giving up Summon Monster. So I won't be doing any of that... I also find grappling to be very cumbersome. I do like your idea of evolution surge.

Can I use evolution surge to use breath weapon more than once a day? Like if I cast the spell twice can he use the power twice?

Starting over: Here is how I would build it...

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Definitely some cool ideas. A lot to think about. I am probably gonna do half-elf and use the free martial weapon proficiency subtype to get a Comp Bow. I have looked into mounted combat and mounted archery as well. Seems like a fun choice overall.

Im not super worried about the Eidolon being tanky because my group seemsto LOVE fighters.

I feel like my cha doesnt even need to be high because they have like virtually no offense spells. Everything is buffing right?

If your strength exceeds your dex finesse becomes a wasted feat, large size raises str, lowers dex. Depending on what other choices you have made this will likely negate finesse.

Oh Duh ... that makes sense! I didnt even think of that! Okay... that makes sense. Would I kind of just build him like a fighter? Try to pump his hit and str?

Yes finesse applies to nat attacks, buuut, eidolon feats are fixed, if you later go large there is a good chance finesse will become a wasted feat. And yes, vital strike for your eidolon.

Fixed as in I can't ever change the right? Hmm why would becoming large affect weapon fin?

You are shooting yourself in the foot, the goal now is to lower the caliber of the gun. Extra evolution is good, take it, the other eidolon based feats look weak to me. Your feathered buddy's biggest flaw is likely to be his to hit on secondary attacks, look at ways to shore that up or mitigate it, later on the vital strike tree might be good.

With HIS feats, not mine right? Just a thought, Serpents get high DEX... can I use weapon finesse on natural weapons?

Archery is viable, but some of the better feats will not be accessible. As an air elemental you don't need wings to fly (flavor is doable if you want). Typically you want to take as many extra evolutions as possible. Even extra flight evolutions are worth the feat imo. If you go large, you can ride your eidolon, which I think is pretty cool. Archery would be cool from the back of an air elemental.

Yeah the wings would be flavor. That does sound really cool....

Java Man wrote:

The summon monster spam is a big strength of the class, if you feel you won't use it much you should consider an aechetype that trades it off, your concept sounds ripe for the spirit summoner archetype, which adds some shaman elements.

For your eidolon, you have opted out of the standard, easy, combat builds. I would do some type of manuever build, either grapple and constrict or tripping. Bonus to the grapple is to grapple, move upward, release grapple. The other option is to weaponize what you have, wingbuffets, tail slaps.

Will I keep up? Or am I shooting myself in the foot for flavor?

I really like the spirit summoner idea!!!!