Looking for some seasoned opinions on the matter. I am currently playing an Unchained Rogue and my team has kind of made comments about how I chose not to go TWF. I've also read that it's...kind of the thing to do.
Here is what I am working with/plans:
Fetchling Unchained Rogue with Scout Archetype currently level 4.
I fight with one short sword. In a flavor sense, it doesn't make sense for my guy to dual wield.
Feats/Talents:
1 - Weapon Focus
2 - Shadow Duplicate
3 - Twist Away
4 - Offensive Defense
5 - Dodge
6 - Bleeding Attack
7 - Flensing Strike
8 - Combat Trick: Mobility
9 - Canny Tumble
10 - Double Debilitation
11 - Spring Attack
12 - Opportunist
13 - Circling Mongoose
Not sure where I am going after this. Point is... With this set up, I should be able to sneak attack in almost any situation: On A charge, after moving 10 feet, during a Spring Attack, After an Acrobatics Tumble, with Mongoose... Combined with Flensing and Bleeding... I should do some nasty damage.
But still I'm told TWF is king. Am I screwing myself? Tell me your thoughts!!
I'm not sure about what you're going after but a 2H STR rogue can be quite effective as well. Right up there with TWF.
Offensive Defence isn't usually available to an unchained rogue - the debilitating strike is supposed to replace it I think.
Your one attack does a reasonable amount of damage. It's going to be fairly reliable, and if you use spring attack it will be safer than being up in an enemies face waving two weapons. It's also just not going to take enemies out for the most part, one attack for reasonable damage is like that. Rather than Bleeding Attack - which won't add much damage unless the enemy runs away - you might be better to go for another debuff or two and so focus on weakening the enemies for the more dedicated fighters, assuming your group has such.
Weapon focus requires BAB of 1, so an unchained rogue can't take it at level 1.
dotting because I'm curious
Why did you choose not to two weapon fight?
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The Unchained Rogue does lend itself towards two weapon fighting quite well, but it's not necessary and there are good alternatives. One good alternative that could work well for you is the Elven Curve Blade, which is a finessable two-handed weapon that the Unchained Rogue can use to gain 1.5x dexterity to damage on attacks.
The Unchained Rogue does lend itself towards two weapon fighting quite well, but it's not necessary and there are good alternatives. One good alternative that could work well for you is the Elven Curve Blade, which is a finessable two-handed weapon that the Unchained Rogue can use to gain 1.5x dexterity to damage on attacks.
If you're going with a two handed weapon, you might as well go with the elven branched spear for the reach: Reach plus a high dex for lots of AoO.
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In terms of pure damage potential, I suspect that a TWF rogue will tend to outperform this build. However, pure damage isn't the only thing that counts. Here are some advantages that I see to what you've got here:
- Stronger defense (particularly if you use a shield in your off-hand) and the ability to maintain more distance from the enemy.
- Less reliance on a flanking buddy.
- Flexibility from having a hand free to use ranged weapons, wands, etc.
- Only having to buy one weapon leaves you with more money to spend on other useful items.
Something that you should consider is that this build seems to take a while to come together - it could be a lot of fun to play once it's complete, but until then you might find yourself saying, "man, six more levels until I can do the thing I actually want to do in this situation...".
As a final thought, you don't have to create a super-optimized character - I've seen people have lots of fun playing characters who aren't particularly well-optimized. Of course, if your group is geared toward intense combat, the DM might feel the need to challenge them, so bear that in mind as well.
It's not necessary.
My group has an unchained rogue. Some combats he doles out serious damage, and others he just helps out dealing damage. That sounds to me exactly how the class is supposed to work.
Personally, the only time I'd suggest not doing two weapon with unchained rogue is if you're going ranged, since sneak attack is near impossible to set up with range.
If I wanted a rogue feel but planned to use one weapon or a two handed weapon I'd probably go bard (Good for one handed) or slayer (Good for two handed).
These are all just my personal preferences though.
unchained rogue with an elvin curveblade and power attack is beast with damagePersonally, the only time I'd suggest not doing two weapon with unchained rogue is if you're going ranged, since sneak attack is near impossible to set up with range.
If I wanted a rogue feel but planned to use one weapon or a two handed weapon I'd probably go bard (Good for one handed) or slayer (Good for two handed).
These are all just my personal preferences though.
I still think my go to would be a greatsword slayer with Power Attack.
To OP: The URogue does NOT have to use TWF to be effective. In fact, you can now utilize two-handed weapons. The Elven Branched Spear and Elven Curved Sword are both Weapon Finesse two-handed weapons, so you can get 1-1/2 your Dex bonus with these weapons. These are actually worth sinking a feat to grab (they are exotic weapons), and makes Elf, Tengu and Half-Elf (with Ancestral Arms) URogues really desirable.
Otherwise, just using a rapier is good enough in most cases. You can TWF with daggers, but you are by no means obligated. You can, however, make TWF more accurate thanks to Debilitating Strike, since you can lower your targets AC with a sneak attack, and so increase your accuracy on subsequent rounds when you use TWF by roughly +2 (+4 from debilitating strike, -2 from twf). I think this is an often overlooked quality of Debilitating Strike.
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IMHO, you are crippling yourself by going 2WF.
Because it's all theoretical damage that only works on Full Attack (AND Sneak Attack scenario)
And the lower iterative attacks are going to be much less likely to hit vs. decent AC opponents.
(like, even for viable 2WF builds, i rarely take all 3 2WF feats, the last is just too unreliable)
Any canny enemy will whenever possible avoid being in range for Full Attacks.
And you don't get any abilities to make that work with mobility.
And you have to pour a bunch of feats into it just to get that.
You are better off trying to 2-hand a weapon.
Doesn't even have to be 2H weapon, could be 1H weapon used in 2 hands.
(if you want to keep the option of a free hand for items or shield etc)
Curveblade or Branch Spear are good for using DEX as Finesse Weapons.
Before Unchained, STR build Rogue was very viable and still are.
This will let your single-attacks be much more credible damage.
That also applies to AoOs, which Reach Weapons excel at.
And of course it doesn't demand big Feat investment for basic functionality.
But still I'm told TWF is king. Am I screwing myself? Tell me your thoughts!!
TWF might be better overall, but there are some arguments in favor of a single weapon:
* You save yourself some feats. Given a rogue only has a few talents to help with combat feats, that's more crucial than for a fighter or ranger.
* Improved Feint unlocks more follow-up feats than Two-Weapon Feint. Most are not that exciting, but Swordplay Upset should be quite nice.
* No TWF penalty can be really helpful for a class with no built-in AB boost.
* If you attack from invisibility / stealth, you can do only one sneak attack anyway.
* If you sneak attack after a charge or moving more than 5 ft (both due to Scout archetype), you can usually do only one attack anyway.
Or maybe do a compromise maybe just pick up two for the extra attack at -2. That way when it comes up you can hit really hats with the small penalty. Use a second short sword so the penalty will be -1. That will be a huge bonus for awhile. You don't even see a second attack until lvl 8 otherwise. The more you go down that path the more penalties so just the one feat gives you a decent boost.
dotting because I'm curious
Why did you choose not to two weapon fight?
I have done it before and like it, but when I picture the character in my head... he just doesn't ssem like a dual wielder.
IMHO, you are crippling yourself by going 2WF.
Because it's all theoretical damage that only works on Full Attack (AND Sneak Attack scenario)
And the lower iterative attacks are going to be much less likely to hit vs. decent AC opponents.
(like, even for viable 2WF builds, i rarely take all 3 2WF feats, the last is just too unreliable)
Any canny enemy will whenever possible avoid being in range for Full Attacks.
And you don't get any abilities to make that work with mobility.
And you have to pour a bunch of feats into it just to get that.You are better off trying to 2-hand a weapon.
Doesn't even have to be 2H weapon, could be 1H weapon used in 2 hands.
(if you want to keep the option of a free hand for items or shield etc)
Curveblade or Branch Spear are good for using DEX as Finesse Weapons.
Before Unchained, STR build Rogue was very viable and still are.
This will let your single-attacks be much more credible damage.
That also applies to AoOs, which Reach Weapons excel at.
And of course it doesn't demand big Feat investment for basic functionality.
Out of curiosity, how does 2handing a finessed weapon help me? I dont get to add DEX 1.5 right? As it stands now I have very high DEX and low STR.
I was thinking of picking up Piranha Strike if my dm doesnt allow Flensing
Or maybe do a compromise maybe just pick up two for the extra attack at -2. That way when it comes up you can hit really hats with the small penalty. Use a second short sword so the penalty will be -1. That will be a huge bonus for awhile. You don't even see a second attack until lvl 8 otherwise. The more you go down that path the more penalties so just the one feat gives you a decent boost.
What makes only -1? Being offset by my weapon focus?
The other Hesistation I have is my dice karma is TERRRRRIBLE. I typically roll 5s and lower on every d20 because the gods like me to suffer LOL. So every negative scares me xD
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Curved Blade and Branch Spear both require either racial weapons or a feat at Level 3 for Exotic Weapon Proficiency. If you're going to spend a feat on an exotic weapon then the Estoc is probably better than the Curved Blade - it deals 2d4 Piercing rather than 1d10 Slashing but it has the same crit range and you can wield it in one or two hands. That makes you more flexible and allows you to attack with it if you get grappled so it may be worth considering.
Curved Blade and Branch Spear both require either racial weapons or a feat at Level 3 for Exotic Weapon Proficiency.
Well, you can pick it up at level 2, thanks to the Combat Trick talent. But since you can choose this talent only once, it's a precious resource for a combat heavy rogue.
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Reach on a rogue is amazing
I have a reach Rogue, it's indeed fantastic.
I'm personally a bit tired of TWF (or natural attack) Rogues. Everyone that goes Rogue seems to do it because of the higher potential damage, but it's so incredibly cookie-cutter. Well, the archetypal Strength-Rogue is also pretty cookie-cutter, but at least it's something I haven't seen a lot of.
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Looking for some seasoned opinions on the matter. I am currently playing an Unchained Rogue and my team has kind of made comments about how I chose not to go TWF. I've also read that it's...kind of the thing to do.
Here is what I am working with/plans:
Fetchling Unchained Rogue with Scout Archetype currently level 4.
I fight with one short sword. In a flavor sense, it doesn't make sense for my guy to dual wield.
Feats/Talents:
1 - Weapon Focus
2 - Shadow Duplicate
3 - Twist Away
4 - Offensive Defense
5 - Dodge
6 - Bleeding Attack
7 - Flensing Strike
8 - Combat Trick: Mobility
9 - Canny Tumble
10 - Double Debilitation
11 - Spring Attack
12 - Opportunist
13 - Circling MongooseNot sure where I am going after this. Point is... With this set up, I should be able to sneak attack in almost any situation: On A charge, after moving 10 feet, during a Spring Attack, After an Acrobatics Tumble, with Mongoose... Combined with Flensing and Bleeding... I should do some nasty damage.
But still I'm told TWF is king. Am I screwing myself? Tell me your thoughts!!
Late to the party, but don't care. People will still take my 2 copper pieces; money is money, after all...
If you were going to TWF, then you chose the wrong archetype. Scout is in favor of single attacks that can execute Sneak Attacks without typical set-up. This means TWF is off the table, and also that you're just going to be a one-hit wonder via Vital Strike (which, for a non-full BAB class, is counter-intuitive due to its BAB requirements).
In addition, note that Sneak Attack triggers per conditional attack. So, if you're going to be making 2 Full BAB attacks (even with a -2 penalty), the odds of you landing at least one attack are greater due to the odds of being able to roll good, and in the event you roll great (and get both attacks), that's two instances of Sneak Attack you're triggering.
So in my opinion, TWF is king on principle, in that the more attacks you get, the more you utilize your Sneak Attack feature (which is your #1 source for damage, even with a maximized Dexterity and Weapon). The downside is that TWF is counterintuitive to a class with less BAB because the to-hit penalty can be a dealbreaker in a lot of rolls. If I got a dollar for every time a player missed an enemy because they used Power Attack, I'd be able to buy out Paizo.
And to be honest, the more attacks you get (at full BAB no less), the better off you are.
I'd personally suggest dipping a level in UCMonk (depending on your Wisdom/Charisma situation, Scaled Fist archetype would be in order), and specialize in Unarmed Strikes. It's the same damage as the Shortsword, you'll only delay (and not technically lose) any Sneak Attack Progression, you get the option to utilize Non-lethal damage on a whim, and the big thing is Flurry of Blows. It's a lot like TWF, but you don't suffer the penalties for it, and it doesn't cost you feats to utilize. You're also basically getting full Dexterity modifier across all of your attacks.
The big thing from there is to work towards getting Enforcer, Dazzling Display, and Shatter Defenses (which lets you basically trigger your Sneak Attacks whenever you hit a bad guy), and eventually, Medusa's Wrath, which lets you trigger two Full BAB attacks on any guy that you make Flat-footed within the round.
To sum up, you'd get four full BAB attacks (assuming you hit the guy within the round, or from the previous round), you'd debuff the bad guy you attack, and you'd trigger Sneak Attack on up to four attacks with relative ease. You also don't lose any damage, can deal Non-lethal damage at your leisure, and have the better damage type (Piercing damage sucks unless you fight Rakshasas). The only downside is no armor (unless you just want to say screw the Monk AC bonus, which is acceptable), and you have to give up your Neck slot (or have a GM who is willing to let you combine an Amulet of Natural Armor and an Amulet of Mighty Fists into a Mighty-Fisted Amulet of Natural Armor).
Curved Blade and Branch Spear both require either racial weapons or a feat at Level 3 for Exotic Weapon Proficiency. If you're going to spend a feat on an exotic weapon then the Estoc is probably better than the Curved Blade - it deals 2d4 Piercing rather than 1d10 Slashing but it has the same crit range and you can wield it in one or two hands. That makes you more flexible and allows you to attack with it if you get grappled so it may be worth considering.No-one spends a feat on it though. Why would you? Racial weapon proficiency is easy to come by.
And the spear is still the better choice, due to reach.
Yeah, elven weapon proficiency is really easy to get... For an elf. Or a half-elf. Not for a Fetchling, which the OP is using. As for the spear, it is a better choice for reach and AoOs, but it also has a lower crit range, takes both hands, and can't be used while grappled. While the even branch spear is a strong weapon it is not strictly superior for all purposes.
Out of curiosity, how does 2handing a finessed weapon help me? I dont get to add DEX 1.5 right? As it stands now I have very high DEX and low STR.
I was thinking of picking up Piranha Strike if my dm doesnt allow Flensing
Yeah, you do. Agile doesn't, but unchained rogue's finesse training does.
Besides, power attack still gives better return.
That's really cool! I could always scout charge in with it two handed. That's super cool.
I don't meet the strength requirement for Power Attack. We are already level four so the first four levels I posted are already chosen and done.
Yeah, elven weapon proficiency is really easy to get... For an elf. Or a half-elf. Not for a Fetchling, which the OP is using. As for the spear, it is a better choice for reach and AoOs, but it also has a lower crit range, takes both hands, and can't be used while grappled. While the even branch spear is a strong weapon it is not strictly superior for all purposes.Curved Blade and Branch Spear both require either racial weapons or a feat at Level 3 for Exotic Weapon Proficiency. If you're going to spend a feat on an exotic weapon then the Estoc is probably better than the Curved Blade - it deals 2d4 Piercing rather than 1d10 Slashing but it has the same crit range and you can wield it in one or two hands. That makes you more flexible and allows you to attack with it if you get grappled so it may be worth considering.No-one spends a feat on it though. Why would you? Racial weapon proficiency is easy to come by.
And the spear is still the better choice, due to reach.
I dislike reach weapons because of not being able to attack adjacent. If only Short heft was still a feat. In our campaign a reach rogue would NOT work. He likes dungeons, big ass monsters and mobs of fodder. In our last session we were swarmed by 9 barbarians at once. With a reach weapon I wouldn't have been able to carve up nearly as many barbs!
You can also take Martial Focus + Difficult Swings (available at BAB +5) so you can force antagonists to treat adjacent squares as difficult terrain so they can't 5' step to get in on you, they have to provoke.
There actually is a feat to let you remove reach from polearms. Sure you take a -2 to hit and clubs are lousy weapons in general but...it's easily available if nothing else.
Spear dancing Style let you treat a spear/polearm as a double weapon, and not reach, so you could deal the same hit/damage as before. The only catch is you'd have to take Two-Weapon Fighting in addition to weapon focus.
Better option, worship Shelyn and take Bladed Brush. Use dex to hit [and damage with finesse training] with glaive AND allows shortening of grip as a move action. Win/win.
Not sure where I am going after this. Point is... With this set up, I should be able to sneak attack in almost any situation: On A charge, after moving 10 feet, during a Spring Attack, After an Acrobatics Tumble, with Mongoose... Combined with Flensing and Bleeding... I should do some nasty damage.
But still I'm told TWF is king. Am I screwing myself? Tell me your thoughts!!
Late to the party, but don't care. People will still take my 2 copper pieces; money is money, after all...
Unchained Monk is an interesting idea, but maybe for a different character.
Like I said, I am already level four and I am NOT Lawful. So, I cannot take Unchained. I also already have weapon focus and my finesse training is on my sword.
Also, I have already chosen scout. I would need to remake the entire broski.
There actually is a feat to let you remove reach from polearms. Sure you take a -2 to hit and clubs are lousy weapons in general but...it's easily available if nothing else.Spear dancing Style let you treat a spear/polearm as a double weapon, and not reach, so you could deal the same hit/damage as before. The only catch is you'd have to take Two-Weapon Fighting in addition to weapon focus.
Better option, worship Shelyn and take Bladed Brush. Use dex to hit [and damage with finesse training] with glaive AND allows shortening of grip as a move action. Win/win.
Bladed Brush is outrageously cool! lol I thank you for showing me that. I may use it in the future.
In our last session we were swarmed by 9 barbarians at once. With a reach weapon I wouldn't have been able to carve up nearly as many barbs!
With combat reflexes, that's 1 + your dex AoO before they attack you [assuming they too didn't have reach]. That's a LOT of "carving" before you even get to your turn.
"mobs of fodder" are where reach shines as those to have to make it through those AoO. Having those just screams 'reach'.
The same for reach and "big ass monsters" that tend to have reach. Now that you have reach, YOU don't have to take an AoO [or roll acrobatics] to get an attack.
Additionally, reach allows for different attack angles that can allow for charge attacks a non-reach couldn't: over foe/friendly, around cover that blocked charge lane, over a square of difficult terrain, ect.
Really in your situation reach sounds like a big plus instead of not workable.
In our last session we were swarmed by 9 barbarians at once. With a reach weapon I wouldn't have been able to carve up nearly as many barbs!With combat reflexes, that's 1 + your dex AoO before they attack you [assuming they too didn't have reach]. That's a LOT of "carving" before you even get to your turn.
"mobs of fodder" are where reach shines as those to have to make it through those AoO. Having those just screams 'reach'.
The same for reach and "big ass monsters" that tend to have reach. Now that you have reach, YOU don't have to take an AoO [or roll acrobatics] to get an attack.
Additionally, reach allows for different attack angles that can allow for charge attacks a non-reach couldn't: over foe/friendly, around cover that blocked charge lane, over a square of difficult terrain, ect.
Really in your situation reach sounds like a big plus instead of not workable.
Point definitely taken! Guess I have not played with reach enough to see its applications. That being said what is letting me get my sneak attack damage on all of those attacks of opportunity ?
Also, sadly going this route would require a completely new character as I am already for levels into my spec
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I have mixed feelings about TWF on rogues. Yes, it is the optimal way for damage, but I find rogues too squishy to sit in full attack range. I am a huge fan of rogues rushing spring attack so they can bounce in and out of combat, applying debuffs and getting the hell out of there. I think level 8 is the earliest you can have spring attack set up on a rogue, which is right around the time I start to get very wary of sitting in front of the enemy frontliners.
Sure, the foe can follow you, ready to hit you, etc., but unless they stop you from moving right in front of them, they only get ONE attack. They may even provoke to get to you, which is more than likely to be worth it. I find mobile combat is tactically sound, but makes fights longer/doesn't have impressive numbers. As a result, people avoid building around it.
This isn't even considering the opportunity cost of enchanting two weapons. IMO, you can do A LOT more stuff with the cash you save than with the enchantments on the second weapon.
Nothing says you can't take the first TWF feat for the times you can make great use of it though. There are undoubtedly instances where TWF is what you should do, it simply isn't every fight.
TL;DR - TWF is DPR king, but not sitting in front of enemy frontliners = living
TL;DR - TWF is DPR king, but not sitting in front of enemy frontliners = living
Just this !!
I lost so many TWFers in 3.X because Big-dumb-monster feels great pain and now gonna punish puny little sneaky-sneaky backstabber ...
I think level 8 is the earliest you can have spring attack set up on a rogue, which is right around the time I start to get very wary of sitting in front of the enemy frontliners.
Spring Attack requires Dodge, Mobility and BAB +4, making the earliest level 6 if you spend your one combat trick talent to pick it up. Waiting one additional level allows you to pick up Circling Mongoose at level 8.
I agree that TWF is not required on a rogue. Part of my dislike for it is the attack penalty. A hit does a lot more damage than a miss.
You might also want to think about having another trick up your sleeve. A rogue can be great at feinting with the proper feats.
BretI, you are absolutely correct. I even drafted a character that took it at 6th!
Fun fact, this thread was posted twice and we are not the one the OP is looking at :/ I'm going to put the link to this one on the more active thread, just for the sake of completeness.
I think level 8 is the earliest you can have spring attack set up on a rogue, which is right around the time I start to get very wary of sitting in front of the enemy frontliners.Spring Attack requires Dodge, Mobility and BAB +4, making the earliest level 6 if you spend your one combat trick talent to pick it up. Waiting one additional level allows you to pick up Circling Mongoose at level 8.
I agree that TWF is not required on a rogue. Part of my dislike for it is the attack penalty. A hit does a lot more damage than a miss.
You might also want to think about having another trick up your sleeve. A rogue can be great at feinting with the proper feats.
Second on the feinting, ESPECIALLY if you are paired with another melee that would be interested in sneaking down the teamwork feint feats that start handing out attacks of opportunity. You can make up for the lack of twf pretty damned quickly that way.