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Beware. This topic may be a possible FAQ, and will likely become a heated discussion. Please try to keep a level head, use RAW, provide references, citation and other binding/official sources, and follow the Community Guidelines at all times.
'Inhales a deep breath'
Klars counts as light shield for the purpose of using it as a shield. We know this because of this FAQ, and it it written least 2 times in the Ultimate Equipment, page 12 and 31.
My questions,
1)Can I shield bash with a Klar?
If no, question 2 and 3 are irrelevant. Question 4 must be addressed.
If yes, please address question 2 and 3. Question 4 is irrelevant.
2)If I can shield bash with a Klar, would I be using light spiked shield damage and "hand of effort"?
3)If Klars are one handed weapon, supported by the weapon table in Ultimate Equipment on page 18, then what would happen if I got a large Klar? Would it become an inappropriately sized two handed Weapon and still count as an inappropriately sized light shield for damage and "hand of effort"?
4)If I can't shield bash with a Klar. Would certain feats, like Improved shield bash, and special shield ability, like bashing, become useless for the Klar?
"Hand of effort" is a much argued over unwritten rule in Pathfinder. Often used to explain why one can not two-weapon fight while using a two-handed weapon.
So if you do not want anything to do with "Hand of effort", You may want to avoid this tread.
I posted this tread in General Discussion, so I may refine my question if I should ever post it on Rules/Question.
As I understand it, using the klar's weapon profile is its shield bash equivalent.
Here is your Klar.
As I understand it, using the klar's weapon profile is its shield bash equivalent.
The thing about the klar that remains confusing to me is that a spiked light shield only does 1d4 damage, yet a klar is listed as 1d6.
Edit: when reading the linked FAQ, the attackt that 1d6 damage is implied to be a shield bash by the sentence "you lose the shield bonus to AC when attacking with the klar unless you have Improved Shield Bash."
I've never seen an explanation by paizo for how much damage bashing would add to a klar, because exactly how much damage the spikes add is unclear.
Yes to 1 and for 2 I don't know why you think you'd use the stats of a different weapon rather than the stats of the weapon you're talking about.
For 3 it should function the same as any other one handed martial weapon.
There's a post where the design team said that the bashing enchant doesn't stack, at all, with a klar.
I guess my first set of questions are useless.
Klar is the shield between light and heavy.
It has all the benefits of a light shield but counts a heavy spiked shield for damage.
All feats and abilities still work.
If you use bashing, you would only take the damage output of the highest size modifier,+2 size from bashing, add to heavy shield damage,1d4, making to do 1d8 damage.
AC=Light shield
Damage=Heavy spiked shield
Klar with Bashing= +2 size mod + 1d4 heavy shield damage= 1d8
+1 sized is 1d4 to 1d6
+2 sized is 1d4 to 1d8
Note that size bonus do not stack.
Hence I downgraded the klar damage from 1d6 to 1d4.
There's a post where the design team said that the bashing enchant doesn't stack, at all, with a klar.
Any idea where? No worries if it's hard to find.
I ask because that would make the klar hot garbage for pretty much all builds.
Does bashing not stack because it counts as a spike shield or because it's one-handed weapon that deals 1d6 slashing damage?
I already explained how size bonuses don't stack.
Or does making it a one-handed weapon that deals 1d6 slashing damage make it no longer a shield bash?
@Torbyne: Usually, adding bashing to a shield with spikes still increases the damage by one size. That's not stacking, it's just adding a better benefit. The faq says they don't stack, but it doesn't say what the base die without spikes is. It could be 1d3 or 1d4, and both violate at least one printed statement.
Base 1d3 means shield spike rules are ignored.
Base 1d4 means "it functions as a light shield" is ignored.
I am not sure how I say this.
This means the Klar is a one-handed weapon with a light shield on it.
I can still put bashing on it, but it would do the same amount of damage as the blade.
I can choose to use the blade as a one-handed weapon, or shield bash as a light weapon.
If I got a large Klar, all damage goes up one size, the blade is now a two-handed weapon and the shield will be... a one-handed shield bash that till counts as a light shield.
Do I have that right?
The FAQ does not say you can not have bashing.
It's says bashing does not stack.
Melkiador link, shows an official ruling on the subject.
It otherwise counts as a light shield, so it would be a light shield two size categories larger (specifically, 1d6 damage for a Medium light shield).
This mean I could cherry pick how the Klar works.
As a one-handed blade or as a light shield.
Spikes are not the issue.
I can choose how the klar does damage.
As a one-handed blade that does 1d6, or as a bashing light shield that does 1d6.
Click on Melkiador Link. Find the Pathfinder Design Team Official Rules Response that says "It otherwise counts as a light shield, so it would be a light shield two size categories larger (specifically, 1d6 damage for a Medium light shield)".
Now tell me where it says Can not have Bashing.
It doesn't it. It says "doesn’t stack with the bashing ability"
Does not stack with bashing does not mean, can not have bashing.
A Dwarven Ugrosh can do 1d6/1d4 P or S. It a little bit like that.
A Klar can do 1d6/1d6 S or B.
Remember, the FAQ says "As a side note, anywhere that lists klars as counting as shields with “armor spikes” is a typo that will be handled in the next errata."
So it no longer has any spikes.
...
Remember, the FAQ says "As a side note, anywhere that lists klars as counting as shields with “armor spikes” is a typo that will be handled in the next errata."So it no longer has any spikes.
They still have spikes. The errata just corrected the wording from armor spikes to shield spikes. Most of the erroneous references to armor spikes in UE already got fixed, but a few got overlooked and will have to wait for the next printing.
This is how i have been interpreting the klar so far so anyone feel free to prove me wrong on it;
The klar is a one handed (note; not light) martial weapon that has the unique role of also counting as a shield with spikes.
First off yes you can bash with a klar. They dont list the damage of the klars bash since in its description it tells you exactly how it hits (1d6 for medium wielders).
To the second question if you were to bash with a klar it would hit for its damage (as mentioned above) but would be a one handed level of effort since it is primarily a weapon with a unique property. Meaning any size change would be based off of the main hand of effort.
Meaning to your third question a large klar would take two hands to slash, and two hands to bash.
Thank you clearing that up folks. It was helpful.
It's a powerful feat. I may have to use it in my build. Perhaps use it with a training WSA.
Can I shield bash with a Klar?
Yes, because the Pathfinder Design Team stated it can shield bash with bashing enchantment.
Klar-i-FAQ-ations are needed on the Klar, Spiked Shield, and more.
1)If a Klar is a one handed martial weapon and can shield bash. Would it make is a kind of double weapon in a way?
NO and Yes,
No, because it can be use as a blade or a shield bash, Not both at the same time. For two weapon fighting, you are only wielding a single one-handed weapon.
Otherwise, the klar has two separate kinds of attacks. The Blade and the Shield Bash.
2)If it has two separate kinds of attacks, could I have 3 set of enchantments?
1 for the blade, 1 for the shield defense, and 1 for the shield attack?
Yes, so long as you pay all masterwork, material, and Enchantment costs.
3)If 2 is Yes, would the rough maximum of a Klar would be over 500,000gp? Even at level 20, it would surpass the general rule of PCs not owning any magic item worth more than half their total character wealth in a standard game.
Yes, But wealth by level is a tool for the GM and not for the players. For the GM decide if the game is a low, standard, or high-fantasy game, which affects wealth. Then the GM can use wealth by level as a guide to monitor the amount of treasure the party has and adjust accordingly.
Can I shield bash with a Klar?
Yes, because the Pathfinder Design Team stated it can shield bash with bashing enchantment.
Klar-i-FAQ-ations are needed on the Klar, Spiked Shield, and more.
1)If a Klar is a one handed martial weapon and can shield bash. Would it make is a kind of double weapon in a way?
NO and Yes,No, because it can be use as a blade or a shield bash, Not both at the same time. For two weapon fighting, you are only wielding a single one-handed weapon.
Otherwise, the klar has two separate kinds of attacks. The Blade and the Shield Bash.
2)If it has two separate kinds of attacks, could I have 3 set of enchantments?
1 for the blade, 1 for the shield defense, and 1 for the shield attack?Yes, so long as you pay all masterwork, material, and Enchantment costs.
3)If 2 is Yes, would the rough maximum of a Klar would be over 500,000gp? Even at level 20, it would surpass the general rule of PCs not owning any magic item worth more than half their total character wealth in a standard game.
Yes, But wealth by level is a tool for the GM and not for the players. For the GM decide if the game is a low, standard, or high-fantasy game, which affects wealth. Then the GM can use wealth by level as a guide to monitor the amount of treasure the party has and adjust accordingly.
And if you notice, the FAQ says it doesn't stack with Bashing, which makes your Shield Bashing deal damage as two size categories larger than usual, the same what the Klar does for a Light Shield.
Which means the 1D6 Slashing is the Shield Bash damage, which is the same as if attacking as a weapon.
So, no. No TWF by itself on any grounds, and no separate enhancements compared to any other shield.
Also, no sane GM would allow a 500,000 gold weapon at their campaign unless it's either Mythic or Epic-level (beyond 20th level).
Also, no sane GM would allow a 500,000 gold weapon at their campaign unless it's either Mythic or Epic-level (beyond 20th level).
Well, that's on the DM for giving the players 500,000gp to invest into a single item in the first place. If that was all the gold they have ever received, then frankly I don't know what the problem is since that is exactly one item.
Yeah I'd say that the klar is essentially a large size small spiked shield. It just does slashing damage, doesn't have a penalty and is considered sized for you, and doesn't benefit from the size bonus of the bashing quality. Other than those three things I'd treat it exactly as a large slides shield.
No where does it say in the FAQ that the Klar blade attack is or replaces the shield bash. It says "For the purpose of using it as a weapon, it is a one-handed weapon that deals 1d6 slashing damage" That's it.
A klar counts as a light shield for the purpose of using it as a shield (for instance, it grants a +1 shield bonus to AC, has a –1 armor check penalty, and has a 5% arcane spell failure chance). For the purpose of using it as a weapon, it is a one-handed weapon that deals 1d6 slashing damage, but it is otherwise similar to using a spiked shield (for instance, the damage doesn’t stack with the bashing Ability, you lose the shield bonus to AC when attacking with the klar unless you have Improved Shield Bash, and so on). As a side note, anywhere that lists klars as counting as shields with “armor spikes” is a typo that will be handled in the next errata.
Bashing is a shield Special Ability, not shield bash. Bashing and shield spikes is the part that do not stack as they are both sized bonuses. I've bolded the word "Ability" in the FAQ and in this paragraph to show that they are the same WORD "Ability" in the Bashing Shield Special Ability.
Klar is a one-handed weapon that counts as a light shield for the purpose of using it as a shield.
Klar also happens to be a light spiked shield. They mention that armor spikes is a typo and should be shield spikes.
When I use the Klar as a shield. I can shield bash with that part of the klar.
As Shield can also count as a weapon when used to shield bash.
It otherwise counts as a light shield, so it would be a light shield two size categories larger (specifically, 1d6 damage for a Medium light shield).
THIS is an Official Rules Response from the Pathfinder Design Team.
One cannot gain 1d6 damage on a light shield bash without the bashing enchantment. Which means a Klar can have the Bashing Shield Special Ability on the shield part of it's design. It just doesn't stack with shield spikes.
Look at a picture of a Klar. It has blade in front. Like a horn.
It also has a thorny skull of a lizard. The spiked shield.
Blade= 1d6 S. Like a horn attack.
Spiked Shield= 1d4 P. Like a skull bash or head butt.
A klar has two parts.
A blade weapon that deals 1d6 slashing damage.
And a Spiked Shield to defend and to shield bash with.
The only way that Bashing Shield Special Ability would not affect a klar would be that just being a Klar somehow counts as having a +2 size bonus. I did not see it mentioned that the Klar's blade is a super spike that increases the shield bash damage with a +2 size bonus.
There seems to be 2 views on the klar then.
1)It is a light spiked shield with a +2 size bonus super spike that gives it a 1d6 slashing damage instead of 1d4 piercing damage, and is now a 1-handed weapon instead of a light weapon.
2)It's a one-handed double weapon with a blade part that does 1d6 slashing damage and a spiked shield part that can do 1d4 piercing damage as part of a shield bash.
In either case given, the Klar is poorly written and explained.
It is so poorly written and explained, that it is the reason why I am spending my good Friday writing this post explaining the Klar, instead of doing something more constructive or enjoyable.
How does the Klar do 1d6 damage and still be a light shield?
Is it a light shield with a +2 size bonus spike that on a shield bash?
Is it a weapon and a light shield?
Remember Shields are already weapons.
Weapons are not Shields. Therefore they can not shield Bash.
I am not inventing anything. These are all facts boiled down in simple terms.
Why do I need Improve shield bash to keep AC on a weapon?
It only works with Shield Bash.
That does not explaining things at all.
It is a statement.
How do the Klar game/rules mechanistic let this happens?
If it is a weapon ONLY and gives a random AC bonus,
that would mean no one can:
Enchant it as shield.
Use shield based feats.
or use it to shield bash.
It can not be treated or counted as light shield in every way and just be a weapon.
It must be a shield at the very least.
Shields are treated and count as weapons, because we can:
Enchant them as weapons.
Use weapon based feats.
Attack like a weapon in the form of a shield bash.
The key words are even the same, "treat as".
Unless, shield are not weapons.
That would mean no one can enchant shields as weapons,
any more then one could enchant weapons as shields.
Is the Klar meant to be a double standard Item in the pathfinder game?
I found some more info on the Klar. It appears in Chronicles Campaign Setting, year 2008, page 208 in weapons and page 211 in armor.
Weapon, page 208
Klar:
Traditionally a Shoanti blade bound to the skull of a horned spirestalker (a breed of Storval Plateau giant gecko), in recent years the armorers of southern Varisia have started crafting these bladed shields from iron. You can attack an opponent with a klar, using it as an off-hand, martial slashing weapon. For the purpose of penalties on attack rolls, treat a klar as a light weapon. If you use a klar to make an attack, you lose its AC bonus until your next action (usually until the next round). Both the sword and shield segments of a klar can be enhanced separately. An enhancement bonus on the shield does not improve the effectiveness of the blade.
Armor, page 211
Klar:
You can attack an opponent with a klar, using it as an off-hand, martial slashing weapon. For the purpose of attack roll penalties, treat a klar as a light weapon. If you use a klar to make an attack, you lose its AC bonus until your next action (usually until the next round). Both segments of a klar can be enhanced separately. An enhancement bonus on the shield does not improve the effectiveness of the blade and vice versa.
Please note in this text the Klar did have different segments and they had to be masterwork separately in order to be enhanced.
Both text state at the end that an enchantment on one does not improve the other.
It seems I have shields all wrong.
Shields are not weapons. They are only armor. One can only enchant them as armor.
True, shields can be used to attack and be treated as weapons. But "treated" as a weapon does not make it a true weapon.
Until you add shield spikes, shield spikes turn a shield in to a true weapon. It no longer says "Treat" it says "turn into" a weapon. And you enchant the spikes into magic weapons that work with shield bash. The same is true with armor and armor spikes.
This mean that a klar is a weapon with a special "treat as shield" build in. Like how Shields are "treated" as weapon but are not true weapons.
I can enchant shield a only as armor and a weapon only as a weapon. Two parts to make a whole.
Klars attack as a shield bash. Klar is a special oversize shield spike giving the light shield a size bonus with slashing to a shield bash.
Yes, I can shield bash with a Klar. I must shield bash with it, it is the only way to attack with a shield. Which is what a klar is being "treated" as.
Klars are different then normal spiked shields in 2 ways.
1)You are not wielding a shield but the shield spike. Shield spike is a weapon, not a shield.
2) Instead of a shield "treated" as a weapon, it's weapon "treated" as a shield.
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It seems I have shields all wrong.
Shields are not weapons. They are only armor. One can only enchant them as armor.True, shields can be used to attack and be treated as weapons. But "treated" as a weapon does not make it a true weapon.
Until you add shield spikes, shield spikes turn a shield in to a true weapon. It no longer says "Treat" it says "turn into" a weapon. And you enchant the spikes into magic weapons that work with shield bash. The same is true with armor and armor spikes.
This mean that a klar is a weapon with a special "treat as shield" build in. Like how Shields are "treated" as weapon but are not true weapons.
I can enchant shield a only as armor and a weapon only as a weapon. Two parts to make a whole.
Klars attack as a shield bash. Klar is a special oversize shield spike giving the light shield a size bonus with slashing to a shield bash.
Yes, I can shield bash with a Klar. I must shield bash with it, it is the only way to attack with a shield. Which is what a klar is being "treated" as.
Klars are different then normal spiked shields in 2 ways.
1)You are not wielding a shield but the shield spike. Shield spike is a weapon, not a shield.
2) Instead of a shield "treated" as a weapon, it's weapon "treated" as a shield.
Now you're being ridiculous and reading too much into stuff without comprehending it as a whole.
For starters, Shields are Weapons. They're defined in Fighter Weapon Groups as Weapons (compared to things like Rays and Grappling, which aren't). They can be magically enhanced as weapons (and armor items at the same time), and they can be selected for things that require specific weapon choices (i.e. Slashing Grace for the Klar, or any Spiked Shield via Swashbuckler's Finesse feature). Therefore, they are indeed, weapons.
Secondly, you ignore the Magic Armor section WHICH SPECIFICALLY SAYS that you can have a Magic Shield also act as a magic weapon. See the word "Also," that means "in addition to," which means it is both a Weapon and an Armor item to be enhanced, at the same time. Not only does it say this once, but twice (when it says that you add the cost of being both a weapon and an armor item together).
Third, Shield Spikes only increase the damage dice of an applied shield by 1 effective size category, and change the damage type to Piercing. Treating it as anything more than that is incorrect, and is therefore effectively houseruling. Personally, I blame JJ, since he's the one who spread the idea that Shield Spikes can be enhanced separately, even though the RAW refers to Spiked Shields, which are a completely different entity.
And lastly, there's no point in referencing Bashing, since all it does is grant a Klar a +1 Enhancement Bonus to Attack and Damage Rolls, the damage dice increase doesn't stack with the damage dice increase it already has. Nobody is saying you can't put Bashing on a Klar, everybody is saying it's mechanically pointless to do so. Similar to a Rogue picking up Slashing Grace when he already gets Finesse Training.
After saying all that,
How do I know that a Klar blade segment is a shield spike or counts as shield spike at all?
When you attack with a Klar you loose the shield AC, unless you have improved shield bash. The only WEAPON in the game that can shield bash are shield spike. Shield spikes only exist with a shield to improve a shield bash. Klars are weapons that shield bash, klars are, or counts as, shield spikes.
Since one can only shield bash with a shield. ALL Klars and Shield spikes must be part of a shield. Because you can not shield bash with out a shield.
One must wield a shield to use shield based feats, like improved shield bash. Klars described in this FAQ can be used with improved shield bash. That means Klars counts as shields. Klars description state they are treated as shield.
Since you can not shield bash with out shield, use improved shield bash without a shield, or have a weapon perform shield bash without a shield. The Klar blade segment must be part of a shield.
The Klar blade segment is or as counts as a shield spike, because you can not have a weapon perform shield bash without being an or counts as a shield spike that is attached or part of a shield.
After saying all that,
How do I know that a Klar blade segment is a shield spike or counts as shield spike at all?
When you attack with a Klar you loose the shield AC, unless you have improved shield bash. The only WEAPON in the game that can shield bash are shield spike. Shield spikes only exist with a shield to improve a shield bash. Klars are weapons that shield bash, klars are, or counts as, shield spikes.
Since one can only shield bash with a shield. ALL Klars and Shield spikes must be part of a shield. Because you can not shield bash with out a shield.
One must wield a shield to use shield based feats, like improved shield bash. Klars described in this FAQ can be used with improved shield bash. That means Klars counts as shields. Klars description state they are treated as shield.
Since you can not shield bash with out shield, use improved shield bash without a shield, or have a weapon perform shield bash without a shield. The Klar blade segment must be part of a shield.
The Klar blade segment is or as counts as a shield spike, because you can not have a weapon perform shield bash without being an or counts as a shield spike that is attached or part of a shield.
James Jacobs, the Paizo employee who designed the Klar, says that the blade segment was designed to count as basically being a giant Shield Spike specific to the weapon in question. I'd link you the post if I could find it, but it's lost amongst all of the Klar threads, and I'm too lazy to go digging it up.
Actually, if you bash with a Shield, you lose the Shield AC. By your logic, if a Klar isn't a Shield (and only counts as a Shield), then Improved Shield Bash doesn't matter for the Klar, because you aren't bashing with it, because it's not a Shield to bash with. Welcome to the Uncertainty Principle, where the Klar is either a Shield or a Weapon, but not both (for some weird messed up reason, even though we have RAW that says Shields are Weapons).
And tell me, where do you see Shield Spikes in the Weapon Entry or Fighter Weapon Groups? You don't, do you? I see SPIKED SHIELDS, which aren't the same as SHIELD SPIKES, the former of which is mentioned to be enhanced as a magic weapon and all that fun stuff, and the latter is only mentioned as an attachment to turn it into a Spiked Shield. Making stuff up without rules citations to support your argument doesn't exactly make your argument sound or credible.
The Klar is the Shield, though. It's not some template you throw on to an existing shield (such as Shield Spikes, or making it Throwable via turning it into a Throwing Shield) like you're suggesting. It's a flat gold cost, compared to the other two subjects, which provide an increased gold cost to an eligible chosen item.
Lastly, you can bash with a Shield that doesn't have spikes. The weapon entry includes Shields that aren't Spiked Shields, and there are specific entries that state you can use a non-spiked shield to bash with.
I seriously wonder where the hell you're getting all of these suppositions from, because it's not founded anywhere within the rules.
Hmm...
1)To enchant a weapon it must be a masterwork weapon. True?
2)To enchant armor, it must be masterwork armor. True?
3)You can masterwork armor, shield, weapons and tools. True?
4)When you masterwork shield, do you masterwork it as Armor, weapon or both?
Answer? Armor only. Page 149 of Core Rulebook, last paragraph under Masterwork Weapons heading.
5)A shield must be masterwork armor to be magic armor. True?
6)A shield must be a masterwork weapon to be a magic weapon. True?
Now this way.
7)Shields can be used to perform shield bash. True?
8)Shields used to shield bash are weapons only when they are used to shield bash. True?
9)Bucklers and tower shields can not shield bash. True?
10)Light shields, heavy shields, bucklers and tower shields are all shields. True?
11)All shields are armor. True?
12)A shield that can not shield bash, can not be a weapon. True?
13)Masterwork light shield and heavy shield are weapons only when they are being used to shield bash. True?
14)Light shields and heavy shields are still masterwork when they are being used as a weapon during a shield bash. True?
This is the last and biggest question.
15)Can a masterwork light shield and heavy shield be enchanted when being used as a weapon during a shield bash?
I don't know. I will post my findings shortly.
Page 120, Core Rulebook, Craft Magic Arms and Armor (Item Creation) feat.
Benefit: You can create magic weapons, armor, or shields. Enhancing a weapon, suit of armor, or shield takes 1 day for each 1,000 gp in the price of its magical features. To enhance a weapon, suit of armor, or shield, you must use up raw materials costing half of this total price. See the magic item creation rules in Chapter 15 for more information. The weapon, armor, or shield to be enhanced must be a masterwork item that you provide. Its cost is not included in the above cost. You can also mend a broken or destroyed magic weapon, suit of armor, or shield if it is one that you could make. Doing so costs half the raw materials and half the time it would take to craft that item in the first place.
Enhancing a weapon, suit of armor, or shield takes 1 day for each 1,000 gp in the price of its magical features.
How long does a shield bash last? One attack.
How long is an attack? Don't know. It is not very long. Don't think it is a day.
More research needed.
#3 in your questioning is incorrect.
RAW, weapons & armor (everything masterwork) must be crafted from the ground up as masterwork. Normal or mundane cannot be "converted" to masterwork.
So you must already have (or in that absence, obtain or make) an item masterwork before you can attempt to craft it into a magic weapon or armor.
Attacks are part of a round.
Page 178, Core Rulebook, HOW COMBAT WORKS.
Each round represents 6 seconds in the game world; there are 10 rounds in a minute of combat.
So an attack is 6 seconds or less. Not a day.