| 1 person marked this as FAQ candidate. |
Now, I know that Kinetic Knight loses out on making ranged blasts because they must use the Kinetic Blade form infusion when they make the blast. I'm okay with that. I was considering on switching up my current Hydrokineticist to this archetype because that's what I primarily do anyways.
Now comes my question. My fiancee and I occasionally interweave our blasts via teamwork feat. If I switch into this archetype, would I no longer be allowed to ready my blast for interweaving even though she is the one making the actual ranged blast?
If I am still allowed to ready, the feat says I may choose a form or substance infusion for the blast, am I forced to choose the kinetic blade form or am I still allowed to use the Torrent infusion I fell in love with using for the mighty "Magnetic Torrent" blast so long as I am the "readying" party of the blast?
Thanks for the help!
I feel that is a justified ruling. My only point against it would be that the feat says:
"One participant can provide a form infusion appropriate for the composite blast, and the other can provide an appropriate substance infusion."
I am not making the attack myself, but rather providing a form infusion appropriate for the composite blast. Is there a primary reason why I would have to choose kinetic blade if I am not making the attack roll or the triggering blast?
This isn't RAW but my interpretation of it would be that instead of the 15 foot max range I would say adjacent would be required instead since you wouldn't be able to send the blast and only provide the substance infusion instead and you would have to be the one to do the readied action. This way your fiancee is providing the actual ranged blast and you're just adding your element and a substance infusion to the blast.
Well, that's two interpreting that I can only do blade form infusion so far against my hopes. I guess this won't work for me then, as I'm the primary form infusion guy for our composite blasts. Archetype looks like fun though!
Thanks for the input!
|
I feel that is a justified ruling. My only point against it would be that the feat says:
"One participant can provide a form infusion appropriate for the composite blast, and the other can provide an appropriate substance infusion."
I am not making the attack myself, but rather providing a form infusion appropriate for the composite blast. Is there a primary reason why I would have to choose kinetic blade if I am not making the attack roll or the triggering blast?
I do not believe that activating a kinetic blast and providing a ranged form infusion is meaningfully different from using a kinetic blast with a ranged form infusion.
Actually, the wording on the kinetic knight is "she can’t use her kinetic blast without the kinetic blade form infusion or an infusion that lists kinetic blade as a prerequisite" so a strict rules interpretation would probably err on the side of not being able to participate in an intertwined blast unless you provide an appropriate form infusion.
But that feels too restrictive to me...
I feel that is a justified ruling. My only point against it would be that the feat says:
"One participant can provide a form infusion appropriate for the composite blast, and the other can provide an appropriate substance infusion."
I am not making the attack myself, but rather providing a form infusion appropriate for the composite blast. Is there a primary reason why I would have to choose kinetic blade if I am not making the attack roll or the triggering blast?
I do not believe that activating a kinetic blast and providing a ranged form infusion is meaningfully different from using a kinetic blast with a ranged form infusion.
Actually, the wording on the kinetic knight is "she can’t use her kinetic blast without the kinetic blade form infusion or an infusion that lists kinetic blade as a prerequisite" so a strict rules interpretation would probably err on the side of not being able to participate in an intertwined blast unless you provide an appropriate form infusion.
But that feels too restrictive to me...
I'm not using my kinetic blast, but using our interweaved composite blast. Step by step of how our interweaving would work:
1) Check to see if distance condition is met.
2) Assuming it is, I would "ready an action to activate a simple blast of my choice" (Note: I ONLY specify the simple blast, in this case: water, no infusions).
3) The lady unleashes her simple blast (once again, ONLY specifies simple blast at this moment), triggering my simple blast to create "a composite blast for which the two simple blasts meet the prerequisites"
4) Calculate the the average caster level to determine damage.
5) One participant can provide an appropriate form infusion for the composite blast (here's where I can see ruling vary)
6) The other participant can provide an appropriate substance infusion for the composite blast.
7) Calculate Burn separately, based of which infusions each participant used.
8a) Damage and Save DC of substance infusions use Con modifier of the participant who used it.
8b) Attack and Save DC of form infusions use Dex modifier of the participant who used it.
8c) If no infusions were used, let players hash it out.
Now, step 5 is where it's hazy. For a "Charged Water Blast" a Torrent or Spray infusion is an appropriate form infusion for the composite blast. What I am asking is if I'm a Kinetic Knight with one of those infusions, am I still forced to use Kinetic Blade as a form infusion even though a composite blast is not technically "my blast", but rather "our interweaved composite blast"?
|
|
And I'm saying yes, "our interweaved composite blast" = "your blast" + "my blast" so any restrictions I have on "my blast" still apply.
Which, the more I think about it, means the most likely rules interpretation is that a kinetic knight is required to apply a blade form infusion to the interweaved blast since they cannot use "their blast" without such a form infusion.
I'd still let you use the "can't provide a ranged form infusion but can provide a substance infusion to a ranged blast" interpretation at my table because I like to be permissive.
The only argument I can see FOR you being able to provide the Torrent infusion is that activating/triggering a blast is different from using a blast and that (1) seems way too nitpicky for the way that Paizo writes rules and (2) is clearly against the intent of the archetype.
The intent of the archetype in this case does not matter. I'm wondering how the feat interacts with it. Feats can easily modify the "intent" of any class or archetype.
There are quite a few feats that allow a character to do something that the class/archetype specifically says they cannot do. Wild Speech says that a druid can speak while wild shaped while the Wild Shape class feature clearly says they cannot. The feat overrides this. Just one example.
Also, interweave composite blast is not "my blast" + "her blast", but it is more "my simple blast" + "her simple blast".
I would like to mention that I do understand the thought behind "the only form infusion I can apply to my is kinetic blade", I am just wondering if that carries over into a blast that is neither my blast or hers. So far there is two on the side of Kinetic Blade only, and 0 (other than my hopes) that feels the feat could allow something else.
I am content with having to accept that this archetype will not work for our synergy, I just don't want it to be because "Blah says you can't. So you can't. Doesn't matter what feats you have." When that's clearly not always the case.
I see two scenarios, KKnight blasts with ally being the readied action or KKnight is readied action and ally is blast user. Either way ally needs to be in melee range since KKnight has no range (15' -> 5').
KKnight is blaster:
Kknight has to provide blade form infusion
Can gather power but no metakinesis to add
Kknight is readied action:
Can provide substance infusion since the ally is doing the blasting
Doesn't have to be Kblade if ally gives basic ranged blast or different form infusion
|
|
The intent of the archetype in this case does not matter. I'm wondering how the feat interacts with it. Feats can easily modify the "intent" of any class or archetype.
There are quite a few feats that allow a character to do something that the class/archetype specifically says they cannot do. Wild Speech says that a druid can speak while wild shaped while the Wild Shape class feature clearly says they cannot. The feat overrides this. Just one example.
Feats need to specifically state when they are overriding other rules or restrictions. Interweave Blast does not specifically state that it overrides restrictions on the type of infusions that you can use, or must use, with your blast.
Also, interweave composite blast is not "my blast" + "her blast", but it is more "my simple blast" + "her simple blast".
I would like to mention that I do understand the thought behind "the only form infusion I can apply to my is kinetic blade", I am just wondering if that carries over into a blast that is neither my blast or hers.
The interweaved blast may be neither yours nor hers, but your contribution to that blast certainly should not violate the restrictions of your archetype unless the feat clearly exempts you from those restrictions.
Again, I'm totally cool personally with you contributing a substance infusion to her ranged form infusion, even if it's stretching RAW, because that seems like a reasonable thing for the feat to allow you to do. But letting you contribute a form infusion that you couldn't use on your own blast does not seem like a thing that the feat should allow you to do.
I see two scenarios, KKnight blasts with ally being the readied action or KKnight is readied action and ally is blast user. Either way ally needs to be in melee range since KKnight has no range (15' -> 5').
Nothing on Kinetic Knight says I have to be within 5ft of my ally to ready a simple blast (which I can only do because the Feat says I can). I can utilize the full range of the Feat.
KKnight is blaster:
Kknight has to provide blade form infusion
Can gather power but no metakinesis to add
Using the steps above (which is the short hand of the steps of the feat), I don't have to select an infusion until after the blast becomes composite. So even if I'm the triggering blaster, I still can choose to use a substance infusion vs. a form.
Those steps I posted are accurate in terms of order, my question is focused on the step 5 portion of it.
I do appreciate the input, Thank you!
Feats need to specifically state when they are overriding other rules or restrictions. Interweave Blast does not specifically state that it overrides restrictions on the type of infusions that you can use, or must use, with your blast.
Wild Speech not specifically states it overrides Wild Shapes language it says:
"When using wild shape to take the form in which you cannot speak (such as an animal), you are able to speak normally in any language you know."
It does not say "this overrides Wild Shape's setback of not being able to speak" in any form. The feat specifies what the Druid CAN do (which implies the overwrite).
Now look at the wording of Interweave Composite Blast:
"One participant can provide a form infusion appropriate for the composite blast, and the other can provide an appropriate substance infusion."
It specifies what the participants CAN do. In fact, the only limitation of the feat itself is that the infusion has to be appropriate for the composite blast, nothing about what's appropriate for my blast (I assure you, with water and cold blasts, I cannot make a charged water composite blast)
The interweaved blast may be neither yours nor hers, but your contribution to that blast certainly should not violate the restrictions of your archetype unless the feat clearly exempts you from those restrictions.
Again, I'm totally cool personally with you contributing a substance infusion to her ranged form infusion, even if it's stretching RAW, because that seems like a reasonable thing for the feat to allow you to do. But letting you contribute a form infusion that you couldn't use on your own blast does not seem like a thing that the feat should allow you to do.
Letting classes and archetypes do stuff that they normally can't do is exactly what feats are for. Typically, a human fighter cannot use an Elven Curved Blade without penalties, but take Exotic Weapon Proficiency, and like magic they can!