Just been playing some Skyrim lately, and you can't help but notice... Are Illusion and Enchantment really different enough to warrant being different schools? (Skyrim's Enchantment being much more aptly applied to magic item creation.)
And then considering that, you can't help but think of things like, "Why are Cure spells in Conj instead of Necro?" And so on and so fourth...
So! Just out of sheer curiosity and boredom...! How would you redo 3.PF spells if you could? Would you even? Put it in writing here!
I'd use the old Ars Magica system. Five verbs, ten nouns, and you basically describe what you want. Lighting a candle, for example, would be Create Fire, as would Burning Hands, Fireball, or Wall of Fire.
Just been playing some Skyrim lately, and you can't help but notice... Are Illusion and Enchantment really different enough to warrant being different schools?
Oh,... and in the ArM system, they are.
Enchantment in Pathfinder generally refers to mental control (controlling feelings and thoughts), which would be Control Mind in the Ars Magica system. Illusions in Pathfinder generally refer to the creation of images (e.g, figments, glamours and so on), which would be Create Image. It's not quite that simple, because Ars Magica draws a distinction in the verb, so you can have spells that destroy images (invisibility, silence), that move or control images (displacement), or that create images (major image).
As to healing spells, in Ars Magica, the create verb is generally used both for creation ex nihilo but also for growth, improvement, or healing. Anything that makes something "better" is a creation spell, so healing is generally Create Body. Anything that makes something worse is a destruction spell, so this would be used both to inflict spells and to kill something outright. (The idea that healing magic harms undead and vice versa is, as far as I can tell, a Gygaxism. I'd suggest that a spell that regrows arms wouldn't really care if the arm it was regrowing was a human's, an elf's, or a vampire's.)
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Ars Magica has a great system, unmatched in some aspects (later mage games go overboard with the system to the point it becomes difficult to be perfectly sure of what you can and can't do at any given sphere "level" and at higher levels of mastery you become capable of anything as long as paradox/backlash don't show up and turn you into a flaming pumpkin).
That said, D&D magic system is way too different from AM's to just copy it.
If I were allowed to change things I'd do as follows:
-Take a long, hard look at all the published spells.
-Erase obvious exploits (example: limited wish/geas or wish machines that work by RAW)
-Change casting time/duration for some effects (example: casting wish or time stop should take way longer, these are encounter changing effects and reality altering too so it's perfectly reasonable casting them requires more than a few seconds).
-Make sure that spells cannot effectively take the place of skill checks (example: invisibility for stealth, invisibility needs to become less reliable, probably reducing duration).
-Introduce some kind of mechanic like paradox/backlash for powerful spells (you want to drop a mountain on your enemies? Fine but keep in mind that kind of power comes with a price).
-All spells should allow for an appropriate save throw (example: enervation)
-In general make spellcasters more dependant on the party (as mentioned above effects could be really powerful but accomplishing them should require an adequate strategy from all involved not just snapping one's fingers).
Edit: also the summoning and divination schools of magic need tweaking, the same is true for long range teleportation ("scry & fry" should not cause the GM all the headaches it does and teleportation allows for a way out that becomes too convenient right from the moment you gain access to it).
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I'd take a good long look at what the schools of magic embody, and then stick to that. Yes, my healing spells would be necromantic. But also, the alteration school has often been huge, because someone keeps getting confused at the difference between "I alter things magically" and "by casting this spell, something changes". A fireball often changes someone's hp total, but it's not alteration.
Something else I've contemplated: removing the nigh-meaningless divide between the arcane and divine. I don't care how you cast your spells, whether by study, innate talent, or divine empowerment, your spell is a spell. We've gotten some arcane spellcasters who can cast spells in armor starting with bards, which means we don't need that to tell the two apart. Might as well throw it out. Holy symbols aren't always required, just as the oracle. Live by a divine code? That's nice, so does anyone who takes the appropriate obedience feat. Psychic magic I can see keeping separate.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
I've been toying with the idea of using different spell progressions depending on the school. A powerful necromancer may be able to cast (e.g) 9th level necromancy spells but only 6th level conjuration and abjuration, and a maximum of 4th level of the rest.
My idea is giving caster classes "spell ranks" that can be allocated in the different "schools skills". The ranks would determine the caster level and the maximum spell level the character can cast of that school.
What I just wrote is 90% of this vague idea. I´m trying to reduce the sameness that (IMO) afflict the spell lists of many casters that conceptually should be (again IMO) much more different.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I like that idea, sir Gnome. It would also allow for more flavorful casters. The fire mage might be great with fire spells, but suck at water and be so-so with air and earth. A transmuter might blow when it comes to illusions and evocations (nothing to alter), so-so with necromancy and enchantment (the alteration of bodies and minds), and so on.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I think I'd put healing under transmutation instead of conjuration or necromancy. You are transforming a damaged creature into an undamaged creature.
Or really, you could break up necromancy and put its various spells in either transmutation or enchantment.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
And then considering that, you can't help but think of things like, "Why are Cure spells in Conj instead of Necro?" And so on and so fourth...
Cure spells used to be necromancy, all the way back to 1st edition.
Fatigue checks. The higher-level the spell, the higher the DC to stave off exhaustion. (IOW, just like in countless fantasy books and movies.)
While I like that in theory, the strength and dex penalties don't really hurt casters that much.
The fatigue would need to make casting more difficult, forcing concentration checks or some such.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I don't like how Necromancy is the "school of things that are icky". Either it needs to have a specific thematic focus "the magic of life and death" (so put healing and resurrection there) or we can just do away with it entirely.
I like the idea of doing away with necromancy as a school and just having it be the "dark side" of other schools.
All direct damage conjurations would be moved to evocation (acid arrow, frost fall, etc).
Cure spells back in necromancy.
Readjust spell progression so that the max level spells for your class come as capstones.
Spells over 3rd level take at least a full round action to cast, spells over 6th level take at least 1 full round to cast.
The game I play in requires 'spell trees' to be able to cast higher level spells, well, for Wizards at least. The 'fireball tree' has 5-6 spells before you get the big FB. There are about a dozen invisibility spells you may learn and about that in magic missiles, though there are variations of each based on elemental focuses. Learning is a bit easier and cheaper, scrolls about the same, but 'copy books are much cheaper, meaning that losing a spellbook is a pain, but not crippling.
Certain feats mimic 'specializations', verbotten in the campaign. I play an Eberron inspired Changeling and ineligible for most of those, but have my own racial feats I am hooked on.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
My big things are I think healing should be moved back into necromancy school. And move direct damage spells in the conjuration school back into evocation and add back spell resistance.
The whole argument of "Well I'm creating actual acid instead of evoking fire" always had an overwhelming order of bovine fecal matter to me, as a means of getting around SR.
The ultimate problem is trying to look at each school of spells and making sure they have enough useful and good non-niche spells to justify having that school exist as it's own separate school.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
...
The whole argument of "Well I'm creating actual acid instead of evoking fire" always had an overwhelming order of bovine fecal matter to me, as a means of getting around SR.
...
I would be OK with this if it if it wasn't also paired with "Well, I am creating the acid over here and throwing it instead of creating it over there, so it is Conjuration, not Evocation". Having a couple of useful SR:No evocation spells at each level would help the school immensely. Instead, offensive SR:No spells seem to be primarily the domain of conjuration, which just aggravates an already substantial power imbalance.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
That is true Snowblind.
Personally I think all direct damage spells should be in evocation anyways. But picking a few evocation spells to not allow SR but at a penalty (lower damage dice?) would probably be okay.
I'd also like to see more scaled evocation/damage spells honestly.
I mean like improved versions of magic missile.
Or weaker (and higher level) versions of fireball.
All direct damage conjurations would be moved to evocation (acid arrow, frost fall, etc).
Cure spells back in necromancy.
Readjust spell progression so that the max level spells for your class come as capstones.
Spells over 3rd level take at least a full round action to cast, spells over 6th level take at least 1 full round to cast.
If you hate high level magic, simply cut it out with a knife. Something I've been thinking of trying is simply removing all spells above 7th level from the game. Instead players still gain those slots, but only for use with metamagic.
Also, free metamagic feats when they would normally gain 7th, 8th, and 9th level spells. Probably 1, 2, and 3 metamagic feats respectively.
Naturally, monsters and mythic characters are exempt because they cheat XD
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
All direct damage conjurations would be moved to evocation (acid arrow, frost fall, etc).
Cure spells back in necromancy.
Readjust spell progression so that the max level spells for your class come as capstones.
Spells over 3rd level take at least a full round action to cast, spells over 6th level take at least 1 full round to cast.If you hate high level magic, simply cut it out with a knife. Something I've been thinking of trying is simply removing all spells above 7th level from the game. Instead players still gain those slots, but only for use with metamagic.
Also, free metamagic feats when they would normally gain 7th, 8th, and 9th level spells. Probably 1, 2, and 3 metamagic feats respectively.
Naturally, monsters and mythic characters are exempt because they cheat XD
At the moment I'm running a game which cuts out spells of level 5+, leaving the slots intact. While some artifacts like fixed teleportation portals exist, monsters get cut-down SLAs like dimension door in place of teleport. It works pretty well so far (level 9).
All direct damage conjurations would be moved to evocation (acid arrow, frost fall, etc).
Cure spells back in necromancy.
Readjust spell progression so that the max level spells for your class come as capstones.
Spells over 3rd level take at least a full round action to cast, spells over 6th level take at least 1 full round to cast.If you hate high level magic, simply cut it out with a knife. Something I've been thinking of trying is simply removing all spells above 7th level from the game. Instead players still gain those slots, but only for use with metamagic.
Also, free metamagic feats when they would normally gain 7th, 8th, and 9th level spells. Probably 1, 2, and 3 metamagic feats respectively.
Naturally, monsters and mythic characters are exempt because they cheat XD
I don't hate high level magic, but I do think it needs more limitations.
I straight up hate high level magic.
I'm super excited for Starfinder to remove 7-9th level spells.
I would use an expanded version of Words of Power.
Spellcasters would build their spells from each word. Wizards and prepared casters would make their spells at the beginning of each day. Sorcerers and spontaneous casters would assemble spells on the fly but with fewer Words to choose from.