So I'm a GM in my group (We're all Gm's but right now I'm kinda taking over the saturdays for a while) and to give context:
The group are travelling and have rolled a 5 which on my encounter table which is equivalent to an Epic CR+3 encoutner, and I have one creature in mind/Just wanna use because it's cool.
Now, You may be able to guess what it is, but certain feats it has are Lightning stance and Spring attack.
----Inserting Feat Details to save people time so they don't have to search for it.----
Lighting Stance
Prerequisites: Dex 17, Dodge, Wind Stance, base attack bonus +11.
Benefit: If you take two actions to move or a withdraw action in a turn, you gain 50% concealment for 1 round.
Spring Attack
Prerequisites: Dex 13, Dodge, Mobility, base attack bonus +4.
Benefit: As a full-round action, you can move up to your speed and make a single melee attack without provoking any attacks of opportunity from the target of your attack. You can move both before and after the attack, but you must move at least 10 feet before the attack and the total distance that you move cannot be greater than your speed. You cannot use this ability to attack a foe that is adjacent to you at the start of your turn.
Normal: You cannot move before and after an attack.
----End Feat Details----
Now, My question for this, is does using spring attack count as one move action, or two? Because it says you move 10 feet minimum, then attack, then move another 10 feet minimum, because to me I'm reading it as 2 move actions, because it states it in the feat, so that would Activate Lighting stance.
Or am I perhaps wrong and this needs to basically take two move actions to move, and then have lightning stance activate?
Spring Attack is a "Full-Round Action", and thus isn't a Move action or a Standard action (even though it includes movement). Thus, I don't think Lightning Stance would apply.
A good way to think about this is "Move actions" are *often* used for movement, but there are Move actions that don't result in movement (like drawing a weapon) and actions that are not Move actions that do result in movement (like taking a 5' step). One might argue that the original designers of D&D 3.0 could have chosen better names, like "Primary" and "Secondary" actions instead of "Standard" and "Move", but without a time machine we're stuck with what they did.
Spring attack is a single move action. Note that you move a distance equal to your speed and not greater than your speed if it was 2 move actions it would be double your speed, effectivly Spring attack is taking a move and an attack action and allowing you to split your move and make the attack part way through instead of at the beginning or end.
Note also in Lightning stance it specifically calls out Withdraw which is a full round action allowing you to move up to speed as allowing linting stance to trigger which further implies spring attack will not trigger it as it is not called out
There is an example in a statblock in the NPC codex:
During Combat The rogue uses Spring Attack and Lightning Stance to reach opponents, and uses his rapier of puncturing to make sneak attacks.
That implies that the two feats function together.
However, as far as I can tell, RAW they do not.
It's difficult to tell: Normally I'd say that spring attack and lightning stance are both not strong enough to warrant them not working together, however with a CR=APL+3 encounter it might be best to err on the side of caution.
With all that said: I've always felt that they SHOULD stack, and that the inability to make them do so is an oversight in the writing of the feat, not an oversight in the above statblock.
Still, RAW: I'd go with no, unless you can get a FAQ done on it :P
Spring attack is a single move action.
To be precise, it's a "Full-round action" (not a move action) that allows you to move up to your speed as part of that action.
There is an example in a statblock in the NPC codex:
During Combat The rogue uses Spring Attack and Lightning Stance to reach opponents, and uses his rapier of puncturing to make sneak attacks.That implies that the two feats function together.
I'd interpret that NPC stat block to mean that if the rogue is within 30', he'd use Spring Attack, but if was further away than that would do two move actions to get closer and gain the concealment from Lightning Stance so he'd stay alive long enough to attack on a subsequent round.
I think the RAW is clear that they do not work together.
Pretty much nothing works with Spring attack to make it more useful. I would not consider it game breaking to allow them to work together but it would be a house rule
Also a tactics note from an NPC description is pretty worthless for working out how the rules actually work, a significant number of NPC's have planned tactics which don't work. Also the quote in question does not indicate the 2 abilities are used in the same round, he uses lightning stance while closing through archery fire and then spring attack to move in and attack while avoiding full attacks from an opponent is a perfectly valid interpretation of that tactic without requiring the feats to work together
I'd interpret that NPC stat block to mean that if the rogue is within 30', he'd use Spring Attack, but if was further away than that would do two move actions to get closer and gain the concealment from Lightning Stance so he'd stay alive long enough to attack on a subsequent round.There is an example in a statblock in the NPC codex:
During Combat The rogue uses Spring Attack and Lightning Stance to reach opponents, and uses his rapier of puncturing to make sneak attacks.That implies that the two feats function together.
A fair point :)
Sound logic, and it would work well enough to make sense: though the sentence should then use the word "or" instead of "and" if they are exclusive concepts, ideally.
But I think it's a good interpretation.
The creature in question is Cr 9. (APL is 6 right now.)
Though on this creatures entry (Avoiding name giving because mayyy get a little backlash for using such a dangerous creature.) it gives lore, society and ways to deal with it, but not much else. Doesn't tell me what it uses its' actual stat block for.
I mean It's got an intelligence score higher than 10, so I'd assume it'd have some sorta thinking, or else it's just erractic and attacks anything and everything.
The creature in question is Cr 9. (APL is 6 right now.)
Though on this creatures entry (Avoiding name giving because mayyy get a little backlash for using such a dangerous creature.) it gives lore, society and ways to deal with it, but not much else. Doesn't tell me what it uses its' actual stat block for.
I mean It's got an intelligence score higher than 10, so I'd assume it'd have some sorta thinking, or else it's just erractic and attacks anything and everything.
Well I have an inkling on the creature in question, but discussing it without naming it will prove frustrating for many (and could lead to me being downright incorrect) so may I take a guess? :P
Oh, Go on ahead and try! If you guess right I'll just confirm it.
It's just I would kinda want to avoid any issues regarding what kind of creature and the environment it's in and what not.
(I prefer creatures just walking in places and then the players try and make sense out of it being there, which gives me ammo to use for later encounters.)
My guess is Nuckelavee :)
In which case your main concern will not be the attack bonus, it will be the high DC on the Breath Weapon + Disease, I'd imagine.
Spot on!
(Also reasons why I avoid giving out any details, I have NO idea if the any of the other members are on this site, so I am assuming yes, though the group itself has a veeeeery negative opinion of this and what not, which makes me laugh since I've been on this a while, and it's not as bad as they make it out to be.)
I only plan on using it, if the ENTIRE party is in the range of it, because... well here's the low down.
Note small story coming with a few rants here and there, so bear with me on what I'm saying.
Currently the party is on a mission to go north to go investigate a capital city. They have had a few encounters where it's been undead, and they said "I bet the north is all covered in undead." and I ran with it, however I've been trying to get it drilled into them to notice, that the north which is considered to be like...a land of pure good.
(context to this, There are no gods, instead the four alignments are considered energies, not counting neutral as it's difficult to maintain and can very easily tip one way or another, and they are in a land where the highest concentration of good energy is there. so undead in a good land kinda screams "S+@+S UP TO NO GOOD.")
So I've been kinda just throwing things that are Evil and such, except for the ice lizards and ice elementals I've thrown at them, and last session I wanted to skip over a few of the rolls because they kept saying "A GM can overrule anything the players do, whenever they want."
And last session I was planning on just having them get delayed by a week by a snowstorm,which would be perfect for the scene I have planned when they get to the city (Story finally starts.) however the same "Outspoken and difficult to deal with player" began to protest about the rolls they made and that I should do it, and no one else said anything, and I just said "Fine fine, whatever." So I'm lowkey getting revenge on them going through an area I didn't want them to go through, and for extending the damn story in order to get levels, which mind you, they won't even get enough EXP to level up this session, where as when the story starts I was gonna level them up because that was a significant point of time.
(Que minor Rant; Who I may or may not be wanting to try and make their stupidly powerful character basically be seen as "Oh not as useful anymore" , who mind you I didn't say yes to at all, just suddenly they existed and were in campaign without my consent, and the other much easier to deal with one, went out the window, and is now the kind of character I hate them playing. Basically they are playing their personality on the character, and it's annoying. End rant.)
Well, running an encounter to get revenge on one or all of the party sounds like a recipe for more problems:
I'd recommend taking a step back and assessing whether you're trying to have fun with these people or at their expense :) that's how I try to approach sessions I run.
I'd avoid taking your frustrations out on the group, even if one of the members is being genuinely frustrating to you. It's best to try to keep a level head and sort such things out outside of the game.
But regardless, If you are looking to analyze whether an encounter is too hard for a party, consider the following link:
compare your group's stats (attack bonus, damage output, saves, DCs) to an average CR6 encounter on that table, then compare the average CR9 stats, then compare the creature in question to the average stats for CR9.
Most of the stats on the nuckelavee aren't above CR9 level - they're either dead on, or below, so they're safe enough: lightning stance working or no, I don't think it's that big a deal.
It's reflex save is very high, but everything else is ok-ish: though the DR is worth considering.
However, compare the DC21 of the breath weapon to the table and you'll see that's about average for a CR13 encounter, which means that a CR6 party is more than likely to fail the saves against it, and then struggle to pass saves against the disease secondary effect (also DC21), which will need clerical removal in all likelihood.
So the big question is: Can your party survive the strong breath weapon with maybe some extra rounds of regular fighting, or is it going to be too much? Will the breath weapon + resulting disease likely result in a wipe?
Also: can they beat the DR 10/Cold Iron well enough?
Note: Took a moment to think, and this post might have alot of....anger? Annoyance? Those kind of feelings seeping in, but trust me I'm not angry right now, I'm just sad that I can't do what I want without getting put down.
Well I am trying to have fun with the group, but again ever since that player joined, well things have gone from interesting encounters and fun interactions to the fun things I tried to do, have all failed and now to be remotely interesting, I have to challange the party, because this new player has basically made everyone stupidly overpower but existing. They aid another and can give a +10 to AC using attacks of oppurtunity (Some combination of items and feats, which again I had no idea they picked up at all.) so every encounter is basically just the party smacking the s@@* outta whatever I put infront of them.
But I try to avoid taking frustrations into the group because if they notice I'm being hostile, the same player will get butt hurt and yadda yadda drama.
And the party can actually very easily kill this thing with a good round. It's got a magus (go figure) and then a two weapon user who outputs a good 40+ damage when buffs are used.
The disease itself with the breathe weapon is to actually force the part to stop going where they are going, (if anyone fails, which mind you this party is stupid lucky, in both extreme's) and return back to the actual story path. Ive warned them lots about this, and they just refuse to listen. So I'm just gonna put a reason on why they have to get back.
My answer to the question: They could survive the fight no problem if it was a new day and them just fighting it, but I don't want them to, At all. I want them to retreat, after having already fought a basilisk (Instead of the instant turned to stone effect, I'm making it do a -2 to dex which stacks each turn it uses the stare.) and three dullahan's.
Again, they are literally buggering off into the mountains because the same player is trying to get their way and basically co-gm with out being a Gm.
If you've never run a CR+3 encounter before - I'd recommend doing this as a "whole day" deal, and see how they fare.
Best to test the waters safely :P
The first time I ran a CR+3 I didn't actually kill any PCs, but did incapacitate half of them and had them a breath away from fleeing: so take it slow, and then if they steamroll things you can up the ante slightly.