A more subtle alternative to fireball

[Hogeyhead]

So I'm crafting an ironically subtle sorcerer (I won't get into the details about why it's ironic, it's not important) and I'm looking for a more subtle alternative to fireball.

What I want is the following:

1. Decent (it doesn't need to be great) area damage. So although blistering invective is cool, it's not quite enough damage.

2. Somewhat reliable. For example although Holy smite is a divine spell, it would almost be good, except that you can't rely on it because of the alignment stuff. On the other hand fireball is somewhat reliable for a few levels before immunity and resistance make it less appealing.

3. Plausible deniability. I would love if it were just -people in area take x damage, no visual effects other than pain- however I understand that's a tall order, so instead I would at least like to be able to say it wasn't me it was someone else, or my deity was acting on my behalf (I'll have the feat from ultimate intrigue that masks casting somewhat). In any case I'm trying to take no extremely overt spells.

4. I would really like it to be a level 3 spell or at most level 4, if it can be level 2 all the better, but I'm realistic, this sort of thing doesn't start till 3.

Thank you guys for your help.

[avr]

Confusion is a sort of area damage ... OK, not what you're after.

The create pit line (spiked pit, acid pit) does OK damage though over a small area. Unlike fireball there's no visible connection to you.

[Doomed Hero]

I think there are feats for disguising or hiding spellcasting in Ultimate Intrigue. I remember seeing them. Don't remember the names though.

[Starbuck_II]

Hogeyhead wrote:

So I'm crafting an ironically subtle sorcerer (I won't get into the details about why it's ironic, it's not important) and I'm looking for a more subtle alternative to fireball.

What I want is the following:

1. Decent (it doesn't need to be great) area damage. So although blistering invective is cool, it's not quite enough damage.

2. Somewhat reliable. For example although Holy smite is a divine spell, it would almost be good, except that you can't rely on it because of the alignment stuff. On the other hand fireball is somewhat reliable for a few levels before immunity and resistance make it less appealing.

3. Plausible deniability. I would love if it were just -people in area take x damage, no visual effects other than pain- however I understand that's a tall order, so instead I would at least like to be able to say it wasn't me it was someone else, or my deity was acting on my behalf (I'll have the feat from ultimate intrigue that masks casting somewhat). In any case I'm trying to take no extremely overt spells.

4. I would really like it to be a level 3 spell or at most level 4, if it can be level 2 all the better, but I'm realistic, this sort of thing doesn't start till 3.

Thank you guys for your help.

2nd level:

Stone Call
Admonishing Ray if have enough caster hits up to 3.
Aggressive Thundercloud: how they gonna know it listens to you.
3rd Level:
Call the Void isn't visible
Conjure Deadfall

[Darigaaz the Igniter]

Black Tentacles when cast at night/in dark areas

[Athaleon]

Invisible Fireball!

[Daedalus the Dungeon Builder]

There's also a spell that functions as fireball, but you can have the apparent origin of the spell be from anywhere within range, and have certain squares take minimum damage. It's from UI, but I unfortunately can't recall the name right now... It had the [ruse] descriptor, though.

[SmiloDan]

Mass Inflict spells? Spike Growth? That spell that sucks out moisture? Murderous Command? Mass Murderous Command??? Is that a thing? It should be!

[Booloo]

What about talking it out with your GM?
I'm pretty sure it's negociable to keep the mechanical aspects of the spell and change the way it looks (and therefore the spell's name).

Say you max spellcraft out and crafted your own version of fireball, named "Hogeyhead's internal probe" that would, in a 20 ft radius zone burn the lungs and boil the blood of all living being for lvld6 fire damage (10d6 max).

[VRMH]

A "meciful" fireball might be rather ironic.

[avr]

Daedalus the Dungeon Builder wrote:

There's also a spell that functions as fireball, but you can have the apparent origin of the spell be from anywhere within range, and have certain squares take minimum damage. It's from UI, but I unfortunately can't recall the name right now... It had the [ruse] descriptor, though.

Controlled Fireball. Pretty good for the purpose intended by the OP.

[Imbicatus]

Boneshaker and Boneshatter are both decent damage spells that can be subtle, but they're both single target.

[Viondar]

Take a look at the psychic bloodline for subtly casting just about anything.

Invest in bluff to mask your concentrated look and tadaa!

Or, the spell: illusion of calm

As to spells...
Night of blades?
Abi Dalzim's horrid wilting?

[Wheldrake]

Wizards, and to a lesser extent sorcerers, can do so many more cool things than inflicting damage. Any klutz with a sword can inflict damage. You are not any simple klutz - you are a godlike spellcaster.

So be subtle. Inflict conditions, rather than inflicting damage. Change the battlefield. Change the rules of war. Change their minds (literally!) and change their behavior.

Enervate them. Exhaust them. Confuse them. Reduce them to giggling remnants of their former selves. Cover them in swarms of monkeys. The possibilities are endless.

Fireball!?! Pfffft! At least hit them with a dazing fireball, if you *must* inflict damage, do it with style. Or just dazing fireworks. <g>

[Grandlounge]

Conceal spell will be good for you. Consider illusions to set up deniability. Some of the Thunder Cloud or storm spells may be hard to locate a source for.

- set up some explosive runes
- flame sphere type spells
- twilight knife
- phantasmal killer

[Louise Bishop]

Illusion spells would work really well. The Image line comes to mind. If it is completely hidden spellcasting you could be like Itachi Uchiha from Naruto. Set up massive illusions and use it to separate and confuse your enemies while you or a teammates moves in for the kill.

[The Sideromancer]

Louise Bishop wrote:

Illusion spells would work really well. The Image line comes to mind. If it is completely hidden spellcasting you could be like Itachi Uchiha from Naruto. Set up massive illusions and use it to separate and confuse your enemies while you or a teammates moves in for the kill.

To be fair, he has a 9th-level mindscape ability.

[Louise Bishop]

The Sideromancer wrote:

Louise Bishop wrote:

Illusion spells would work really well. The Image line comes to mind. If it is completely hidden spellcasting you could be like Itachi Uchiha from Naruto. Set up massive illusions and use it to separate and confuse your enemies while you or a teammates moves in for the kill.

To be fair, he has a 9th-level mindscape ability.

It is something to work up too.

You can easily start off with Silent Image to make Fog clouds and having the archer firing out of it while you summon or do other things.

[David knott 242]

Another alternative is to use spells that don't do direct damage. For example, with the right party, Haste can be more damaging than Fireball. After the fight, you can truthfully claim that you did not blast anyone -- you just buffed your allies.

[Wheldrake]

Haste is definitely better than a fireball. Even Heroism is going to be better after a few rounds than a single fireball.

Professor Q's wizard guide has a great rundown on spells, as does Treeantmonk. The general philosophy is that blasting is a purely recreational activity (read: non-optimised, even if you optimise for it).

The true power of a wizard is the not blasting spells.

[Athaleon]

Wheldrake wrote:

Haste is definitely better than a fireball. Even Heroism is going to be better after a few rounds than a single fireball.

Professor Q's wizard guide has a great rundown on spells, as does Treeantmonk. The general philosophy is that blasting is a purely recreational activity (read: non-optimised, even if you optimise for it).

The true power of a wizard is the not blasting spells.

OP is asking how to cast spells in front of witnesses, to kill people without looking like he did it. Having a bunch of your friends charge in and do the killing isn't subtle either.

[Louise Bishop]

Athaleon wrote:

Wheldrake wrote:

Haste is definitely better than a fireball. Even Heroism is going to be better after a few rounds than a single fireball.

Professor Q's wizard guide has a great rundown on spells, as does Treeantmonk. The general philosophy is that blasting is a purely recreational activity (read: non-optimised, even if you optimise for it).

The true power of a wizard is the not blasting spells.

OP is asking how to cast spells in front of witnesses, to kill people without looking like he did it. Having a bunch of your friends charge in and do the killing isn't subtle either.

Suffocate seems like a good one.

They are choking but dunno why.

[Booloo]

Well then Magic Jar/Marionette Possession are probably the perfect fit.

[Wheldrake]

Athaleon wrote:

Wheldrake wrote:

Haste is definitely better than a fireball. Even Heroism is going to be better after a few rounds than a single fireball.

Professor Q's wizard guide has a great rundown on spells, as does Treeantmonk. The general philosophy is that blasting is a purely recreational activity (read: non-optimised, even if you optimise for it).

The true power of a wizard is the not blasting spells.

OP is asking how to cast spells in front of witnesses, to kill people without looking like he did it. Having a bunch of your friends charge in and do the killing isn't subtle either.

There are two feats which allow the caster to conseal his spellcasting. But obvious effects like a fireball would totally defeat them.

Subtle casting plus suffocation sounds perfect! Like the Darth Vader neck pinch.

[SmiloDan]

Is there a Pathfinder spell like that spell Dresden used where he transferred a little bit of gravity from a wide area and concentrated it in a small area? That might be a neat area effect damaging spell without an obvious caster.

[zainale]

SmiloDan wrote:

Is there a Pathfinder spell like that spell Dresden used where he transferred a little bit of gravity from a wide area and concentrated it in a small area? That might be a neat area effect damaging spell without an obvious caster.

which book is that one in?

also is reverse gravity still a spell?

[avr]

Reverse gravity exists in PF. I can't think of any exact equivalent to that gravity focusing spell, you'd have to create something based off shadow trap or sirocco or something.

[Plausible Pseudonym]

zainale wrote:

SmiloDan wrote:

Is there a Pathfinder spell like that spell Dresden used where he transferred a little bit of gravity from a wide area and concentrated it in a small area? That might be a neat area effect damaging spell without an obvious caster.

which book is that one in?

also is reverse gravity still a spell?

Changes, towards the end. The beginning of the end scene/location.

It is.

[Wrong John Silver]

Start with an area blinding, like with glitterdust or fog cloud. Then fireball and say, "It wasn't me!"

Pity cloudkill is 5th level.

[Hogeyhead]

Hey gentlemen, sorry I kinda forgot about this thread, but it's given me much to think on. I have a question how obvious is irradiate? Also you've convinced me to take conceal spell, sigh the feats, the feats.

Edit: Is there some way to get deceitful on the cheap, like say with an item or some such?

[avr]

I'd recommend the Cunning Caster feat rather than Conceal Spell. It still requires Deceitful but I think the effect is better.

Radiation isn't obvious (unless perhaps it's underwater), there's a detect radiation spell which exists to be warned about it.

I know of no way to get Deceitful on the cheap, but if you're a gnome Casual Illusionist can substitute for it.

[Lady-J]

delayed blast fireball cast it then walk away and when it explodes no one will know it was you

[Torbyne]

avr wrote:

Reverse gravity exists in PF. I can't think of any exact equivalent to that gravity focusing spell, you'd have to create something based off shadow trap or sirocco or something.

Void Kineticists can make gravity blasts and pull/push/crush with gravity. Thats the closest i know of.

[PodTrooper]

I read area effect spell, and plausible deniability, and all I can think of is Stinking Cloud.
(points to guy next to him) :)

[John Mechalas]

Honestly, let's think this through for a second. The request is for:

1. Area of effect with
2. "Decent" damage (with Blistering Invective called out as not enough) that is
3. "Somewhat" reliable (with Fireball being called out as "OK" because of SR, and fire immunity) whose manifestation is
4. not overt, so no obvious spell effect, at
5. L3 (preferred) or L4.

Putting that together, that's a L3 or L4 AoE spell with > 1d10 damage, that has no obvious manifestation, but allows SR and non-force energy damage types.

Not gonna happen. You're better off positioning people under an invisible chandelier and using shatter on the chain that it's hanging from. And you can do all that with L2 spells.

[My Self]

It would be hilarious to use a merciful metamagic Phantasmal Killer or Weird. Not viable under these restrictions, but really funny regardless.

John Mechalas wrote:

Honestly, let's think this through for a second. The request is for:

1. Area of effect with
2. "Decent" damage (with Blistering Invective called out as not enough) that is
3. "Somewhat" reliable (with Fireball being called out as "OK" because of SR, and fire immunity) whose manifestation is
4. not overt, so no obvious spell effect, at
5. L3 (preferred) or L4.

Putting that together, that's a L3 or L4 AoE spell with > 1d10 damage, that has no obvious manifestation, but allows SR and non-force energy damage types.

Not gonna happen. You're better off positioning people under an invisible chandelier and using shatter on the chain that it's hanging from. And you can do all that with L2 spells.

SL 2 mentioned, SL 3 or SL 4 seem reasonable. This implies CL 4 to CL 8. Blistering Invective (SL 2, CL 3) is 1d10 (5.5) on a successful Intimidate, another 1d6 (3.5) on a failed Reflex save, and another 1d6 every subsequent turn you fail to quench the fire. So that's 1d10+1d6 (9) immediate damage, then perhaps another 2d6 (7) before the fire gets put out. Worst case option is complete damage avoidance, such as if you try to cast this on a Paladin. Some rough guesswork might say that your Intimidate will hit a decent amount of the time, although the burns will might fail to catch or be quickly put out. You can probably expect about 8 damage per target, give or take a bit depending on how good your casting DCs are, and how good you are at laying down sick burns (intimidate). That would translate to roughly 2 expected damage/caster level in an area. A Fireball would lay down 1d6/caster level. You've got 3.5 damage/caster level on a success, and about 1.75 on a failure. If we pegged failure chance at 50%, you're averaging 2.625 expected damage/caster level.

Crazy assumptions aside, Stone Call might work a little at 4th level, since it's a SL 2 spell that does 2d6 (7 damage), no save. That's 1.25 damage/caster level, which is passible, all things considered. No save is much more reliable than a save.

Here's a question: Why aren't you playing with the Psychic bloodline? You can conceal some manifestations just by the nature of Psychic casting, while the other ones are pretty obvious.

[John Mechalas]

My Self wrote:

Crazy assumptions aside, Stone Call might work...

I agree with you that Stone Call is as close as it gets. But 7 damage vs 5.5 is not really a significant increase, and it doesn't scale with level.

But, no save, no SR, no resistances...only DR would potentially apply. Add the large AoE and long range, and it's certainly not insignificant. It's a nice spell to have on hand in general, even at higher levels because of the terrain impact.

[kadance]

How about a Kineticist with an AOE infusion and the Delay Blast feat?

[Cevah]

Too bad Thorny Entanglement is not on your list.

However, Garden of Peril is. Sickened is a great debuff, and it only uses a move each round, leaving your standard for casting other stuff. I don't think it breaks invisibility, since you are not attacking.

My witch can get them both.

/cevah