Man, i KNOW this isnt common, but whenever i see cha dropped to like 7 or 5 i just think of how badly my gm punishes that. People ignore you when you try to buy things, avoid you, your party members are asked to exclude you from meetings because you're so unlikeable/hideous.
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geokineticists really shine when they're acting as a tank. i found with my aether kineticist that the physical blast damage scales really quickly, and when you hit you hit hard. hitting hard and getting attention is how you tank in this game, for the most part, and you'll be able to take the hits.
first level is going to be rough for you, but take heart that you arent the wizard standing in the corner shakily firing a crossbow!
Switch DEX and CON, as a physical blaster you want to prioritize dex over con slightly for the better accuracy. You can dump STR some, down to what your comfortable with for a carry capacity. But yes Elemental Overflow, once it gets up and running, causes the class to approximate full BAB accuracy but with delayed iteratives since you are still only 3/4 BAB. One thing you could consider is Elemental Whispers + Greater. You can get an earth wysp at level 6, which will give you +1 attack/+1 dmg, and can have your starting familiar and then wysp be a sage familiar for knowledge checks.
Switch DEX and CON, as a physical blaster you want to prioritize dex over con slightly for the better accuracy. You can dump STR some, down to what your comfortable with for a carry capacity. But yes Elemental Overflow, once it gets up and running, causes the class to approximate full BAB accuracy but with delayed iteratives since you are still only 3/4 BAB. One thing you could consider is Elemental Whispers + Greater. You can get an earth wysp at level 6, which will give you +1 attack/+1 dmg, and can have your starting familiar and then wysp be a sage familiar for knowledge checks.
Those are post racial adjustments, dex/con are 16 each on that char
Strength 14
Dexterity 16
Constitution 14
Intelligence 12
Wisdom 14
Charisma 7
With the above stats we aren't as reliant on Dexterity for melee, and we can Power Attack now, adding more damage. A long spear is good for this, with Kinetic Blade for when things get close and it's your turn.
If we want the ranged blast to be a back up attack, dropping Dexterity to 13 and grabbing Heavy Armor(either through feats or multiclassing) is the way to go. Take Dodge and it's only like you lose 1 armor class.
First level is going to be rough for you, but take heart that you aren't the wizard standing in the corner shakily firing a crossbow!
My wizard thoroughly enjoys his light crossbow. It's served him well with many a devastating crits. When you don't want to use a spell, just shoot it. :)
Strength 14
Dexterity 16
Constitution 14
Intelligence 12
Wisdom 14
Charisma 7
Isn't CON 14 a bit low for a Kineticist?
Also I always get a laugh when people suggest 14 STR+Medium BAB+ Power Attack= More damage.
Also I always get a laugh when people suggest 14 STR+Medium BAB+ Power Attack= More damage.
It's been awhile since I did the math, but I think it generally would be more damage, even with low accuracy. The thing that makes power attack the most useless is already having high damage before applying it.
To be clear, I wouldn't take PA on a kineticist, but it's not because of their BAB. The rest of the class just doesn't mesh well with the feat.
I have a very similar build in PFS. The first couple of levels were mechanically boring, so I spruced it up with flavor.
Instead of throwing rocks, my dwarf threw stone boomerangs that looked like his mag ificent mustache. One time, he accidentally sneezed while stealthing, which resulted in an enemy getting impaled on a stone spike of "flying mucas." It's all in the presentation, my friend.
I used traits to pump up his UMD and Intimidated despite his terrible Charisma.
Strength 14
Dexterity 16
Constitution 14
Intelligence 12
Wisdom 14
Charisma 7Isn't CON 14 a bit low for a Kineticist?
Also I always get a laugh when people suggest 14 STR+Medium BAB+ Power Attack= More damage.
Physical Blasts don't need as much Con for damage as energy blasts do.
The stat boosts from Elemental Overflow can easily go into Strength, and if needed you can lower some other stats to make Strength even higher. At that point is use something with a natural bonus to Strength, like a Skinwalker or a Tiefling variant though, not dwarf. Yes, you aren't adding that Strength bonus to damage, but with the dice and automatic bonus to damage from physical blasts(+1 per d6) you don't need too. And if you're in a situation where you Kinetic Blade isn't your best option, a melee weapon works just fine.
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Strength 14
Dexterity 16
Constitution 14
Intelligence 12
Wisdom 14
Charisma 7Isn't CON 14 a bit low for a Kineticist?
Also I always get a laugh when people suggest 14 STR+Medium BAB+ Power Attack= More damage.
Physical Blasts don't need as much Con for damage as energy blasts do.
The stat boosts from Elemental Overflow can easily go into Strength, and if needed you can lower some other stats to make Strength even higher. At that point is use something with a natural bonus to Strength, like a Skinwalker or a Tiefling variant though, not dwarf. Yes, you aren't adding that Strength bonus to damage, but with the dice and automatic bonus to damage from physical blasts(+1 per d6) you don't need too. And if you're in a situation where you Kinetic Blade isn't your best option, a melee weapon works just fine.
but why add in another stat when you don't need to. Con is super useful for absorbing the burn required from pretty much all abilities. Strength is only useful for damage and to-hit, which weapon finesse can alleviate using kinetic blade and Dex. as you said Physical blasts are pretty powerful so the extra con is only going to help more.
overall strength is a dump stat for almost all kineticists.
The stat boosts from Elemental Overflow can easily go into Strength, and if needed you can lower some other stats to make Strength even higher. At that point is use something with a natural bonus to Strength, like a Skinwalker or a Tiefling variant though, not dwarf. Yes, you aren't adding that Strength bonus to damage, but with the dice and automatic bonus to damage from physical blasts(+1 per d6) you don't need too. And if you're in a situation where you Kinetic Blade isn't your best option, a melee weapon works just fine.
But you're going to be spending a lot of time in charge range, and you're basically spending your HP like a resource (having 16 con vs. 14 is basically another point of burn you can safely take) and your AC isn't going to be great at low levels. Honestly, since the Kinetic Blade kineticist is an effortless switch hitter anyway, you should probably be staying out of melee range at least until your Elemental Defense becomes meaningful.
Since the Kineticist has very, very few required feats to work, putting one of them into weapon finesse allows you to disregard strength entirely beyond "carrying stuff" and still do fine in melee.
I'm also sort of curious about the action economy for picking up and dropping all of these melee weapons, since you're going to need two hands free for most of your turns. By the time you're level 3 your KB is going to be dealing 2d6+2+ConMod so you're comparable with the fighter with the greatsword with your hands free, and better than any weapon you can use.
What am I chopped liver? :P
Yeah, as a geokineticist, as long as the gear you need to wear allows you to carry a light load, and you have weapon finesse you really don't need strength for much.
Nobody seems to be annoyed at "low strength" in a character like they are at "low charisma". For a dwarf geokineticist with a 20 PB I would probably roll with something like 8/16/18/10/14/8 post-racials. At least with an 8 CHA you're just in "average Dwarf" territory.
Can't a Dwarf get away with 7 STR easily due to not being impeded even by a heavy load?
I just play my dwarf geokineticist as being especially taciturn, and highly obsessed with his mustache. Nobody questions his low Charisma, especially since his traits and abilities let him ignore the penalties more often than not.
1) Carry capacity
(Slow and Steady) Dwarves have a base speed of 20 feet, but their speed is never modified by armor or encumbrance.
Shadows... yeah they suck
You want to stay in a light load as a kineticist because you're relying on Dex to AC (this might change with the recent kinetic knight archetype though). A medium load caps your dex-to-AC bonus at 3, which is what you should be getting at level 1, and basically all of your money that doesn't go to AC and save boosting items will go to DEX and CON boosting items.
I would not consider a medium size character with less than 10 Str, and a Small one with less than 8. Anything less requires someone to carry your gear, only really works for those that want to walk around with no armor, and makes you Shadow bait.
Try playing a Telekineticist then, despite your 7 strength post level 4 your out-of-combat carrying capacity with 0 load is 100 lbs per level.
There's also some debate as to whether shadows can even penetrate your force ward. Though, I don't know if there were any shadows at all in the last 6 campaigns I was a player in, to be honest.
What am I chopped liver? :P*gives Ravingdork a hug* Far from it Ravingdork! I appreciate your advice to focus more on roleplay, and I did look over Valgar for ideas. Sadly, geokineticists are pretty cookie cutter right now, so it's exactly the same as my plan, except I'm going Elemental Whispers instead of Kinetic Cover, and I couldn't think of any comments to make on it. If it make you feel any better, I lurk around your Emporium a lot, and usually learn a lot from checking out your characters. :)
Have you had a chance to see Psychic Anthology yet? They have several new options for kineticists that help alleviate the cookie cutter issue (74 new blasts and wild talents to be exact). For example, geokineticists can get stone shield as a 1st-level utility talent now.
Try playing a Telekineticist then, despite your 7 strength post level 4 your out-of-combat carrying capacity with 0 load is 100 lbs per level.
If you're talking about TK Haul, then you may not be encumbered, but you would be moving at half speed, because you'll be needing to spend your standard action for concentrating on the spell, instead of using it for a double move.
Man, i KNOW this isnt common, but whenever i see cha dropped to like 7 or 5 i just think of how badly my gm punishes that. People ignore you when you try to buy things, avoid you, your party members are asked to exclude you from meetings because you're so unlikeable/hideous.
He is a dwarf with Int12. Therefore...
* Stoic Negotiator (+2 diplomacy and bluff)
* Ease of Faith (+1 diplomacy and class skill)
* Clever Wordplay (Int for diplomacy)
So he is a Cha5 dwarf who has, at lvl 1, diplomacy +8 (and bluff -1 / intimidate -3).
The Cha5 thus doesn't mean that he is hideous. Quite the opposite, he is likeable and easy to get along with. He is just bad at lying and isn't threatening at all. Which goes well with his Str10.
It also means that his handle animal skill is abysmal. So don't ask him to deal with animals. :P
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Also, if he was an inquisitor with stoic negotiator and wis16, he'd have both of his traits free to use. And he'd start off with Diplomacy +9, Bluff +9, Intimidate +8, Sense Motive +7. That'd make him a really effective Cha5 face. Who just happens to be really bad with animals.
I'm not sure why i don't see Opening Volley in more kineticist builds, it seems like an obvious choice to me. A +4 to hit in a situation you are going to be able to reproduce in almost every fight your character will ever be in? Yes please, more of that.
Most kineticists stay away from melee. Their blade is their backup for a lot of the one's I've seen.
Man, i KNOW this isnt common, but whenever i see cha dropped to like 7 or 5 i just think of how badly my gm punishes that. People ignore you when you try to buy things, avoid you, your party members are asked to exclude you from meetings because you're so unlikeable/hideous.He is a dwarf with Int12. Therefore...
* Stoic Negotiator (+2 diplomacy and bluff)
* Ease of Faith (+1 diplomacy and class skill)
* Clever Wordplay (Int for diplomacy)So he is a Cha5 dwarf who has, at lvl 1, diplomacy +8 (and bluff -1 / intimidate -3).
The Cha5 thus doesn't mean that he is hideous. Quite the opposite, he is likeable and easy to get along with. He is just bad at lying and isn't threatening at all. Which goes well with his Str10.
It also means that his handle animal skill is abysmal. So don't ask him to deal with animals. :P
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Also, if he was an inquisitor with stoic negotiator and wis16, he'd have both of his traits free to use. And he'd start off with Diplomacy +9, Bluff +9, Intimidate +8, Sense Motive +7. That'd make him a really effective Cha5 face. Who just happens to be really bad with animals.
Cunning and logic doesn't make him likeable. You've created a hard negotiator whose ability to use logic to maneuver people in conversation gets them to do what he wants. Thats the flavor of the clever wordplay trait.
Your cunning and logic are more than a match for another’s confidence and poise.
Most people will submit to that, but they aren't going to find it pleasant.
Edit: and its eaten both your traits, and traded stonecunning and offensive and defensive racial traits away from a geokineticist for a +2 to diplomacy to cover up your dumpstat weakness.
Oh, I've seen a few melee going into whip builds. Just that most I've seen stay at range, and the melee are doing melee and not getting off ranged attacks.
Man, i KNOW this isnt common, but whenever i see cha dropped to like 7 or 5 i just think of how badly my gm punishes that. People ignore you when you try to buy things, avoid you, your party members are asked to exclude you from meetings because you're so unlikeable/hideous.He is a dwarf with Int12. Therefore...
* Stoic Negotiator (+2 diplomacy and bluff)
* Ease of Faith (+1 diplomacy and class skill)
* Clever Wordplay (Int for diplomacy)So he is a Cha5 dwarf who has, at lvl 1, diplomacy +8 (and bluff -1 / intimidate -3).
The Cha5 thus doesn't mean that he is hideous. Quite the opposite, he is likeable and easy to get along with. He is just bad at lying and isn't threatening at all. Which goes well with his Str10.
It also means that his handle animal skill is abysmal. So don't ask him to deal with animals. :P
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Also, if he was an inquisitor with stoic negotiator and wis16, he'd have both of his traits free to use. And he'd start off with Diplomacy +9, Bluff +9, Intimidate +8, Sense Motive +7. That'd make him a really effective Cha5 face. Who just happens to be really bad with animals.
Cunning and logic doesn't make him likeable. You've created a hard negotiator whose ability to use logic to maneuver people in conversation gets them to do what he wants. Thats the flavor of the clever wordplay trait.
Your cunning and logic are more than a match for another’s confidence and poise.Most people will submit to that, but they aren't going to find it pleasant.
Edit: and its eaten both your traits, and traded stonecunning and offensive and defensive racial traits away from a geokineticist for a +2 to diplomacy to cover up your dumpstat weakness.
It's kind of bad form to tell someone that they're role playing their character wrong.
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It's kind of bad form to tell someone that they're role playing their character wrong.
Its not much better form to grab traits with no care for anything but the mechanical boosts.
Edit to kill quote chain and add: Especially when character traits are being used without their rp context to counter rp consequences to dumping a stat for mechanical advantage.
Man, i KNOW this isnt common, but whenever i see cha dropped to like 7 or 5 i just think of how badly my gm punishes that. People ignore you when you try to buy things, avoid you, your party members are asked to exclude you from meetings because you're so unlikeable/hideous.He is a dwarf with Int12. Therefore...
* Stoic Negotiator (+2 diplomacy and bluff)
* Ease of Faith (+1 diplomacy and class skill)
* Clever Wordplay (Int for diplomacy)So he is a Cha5 dwarf who has, at lvl 1, diplomacy +8 (and bluff -1 / intimidate -3).
The Cha5 thus doesn't mean that he is hideous. Quite the opposite, he is likeable and easy to get along with. He is just bad at lying and isn't threatening at all. Which goes well with his Str10.
It also means that his handle animal skill is abysmal. So don't ask him to deal with animals. :P
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Also, if he was an inquisitor with stoic negotiator and wis16, he'd have both of his traits free to use. And he'd start off with Diplomacy +9, Bluff +9, Intimidate +8, Sense Motive +7. That'd make him a really effective Cha5 face. Who just happens to be really bad with animals.
I recommend the following traits instead:
Or something similar that doesn't merely add a bonus, but alters the contributing ability score altogether.
Yeah, you're not being fair. Clever wordplay doesn't have to mean you are unlikable. The way I saw it, you are diplomatic, but are honest to a fault and aren't threatening at all. That's a combination which is impossible to create without a low Cha and traits. And it's a combination which is realistic.
And isn't that the point of pathfinder over something like 5ed? To be able to crunch numbers and books to create interesting flavor/strong builds?
Finally...using both traits to make up for a dump stat seems like a good trade to me. Especially if your GM is going to go out of his way to make your character unplayable if you don't (i.e.: can't buy anything or talk to anyone, even your party members. You might as well tell the player to go home at that point!)
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Edit:
As for bruising intellect, I prefer that on an Int12 half-orc to go with intimidating. For the dwarf, diplomacy and bluff seem to be better choices to me.
And UMD doesn't get around his GM's preference for not letting a low Cha character do anything outside of combat.
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It's kind of bad form to tell someone that they're role playing their character wrong.
Its not much better form to grab traits with no care for anything but the mechanical boosts.
Edit to kill quote chain and add: Especially when character traits are being used without their rp context to counter rp consequences to dumping a stat for mechanical advantage.
Eliminate one consequence of dumping CHA. The character still can't intimidate or lie very well.
I'm of the mind that mechanics can be used to support many differen kinds of character concepts rather than just one.
Yeah, you're not being fair. Clever wordplay doesn't have to mean you are unlikable. The way I saw it, you are diplomatic, but are honest to a fault and aren't threatening at all. That's a combination which is impossible to create without a low Cha and traits. And it's a combination which is realistic.
And isn't that the point of pathfinder over something like 5ed? To be able to crunch numbers and books to create interesting flavor/strong builds?
Finally...using both traits to make up for a dump stat seems like a good trade to me. Especially if your GM is going to go out of his way to make your character unplayable if you don't (i.e.: can't buy anything or talk to anyone, even your party members. You might as well tell the player to go home at that point!)
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Edit:
As for bruising intellect, I prefer that on an Int12 half-orc to go with intimidating. For the dwarf, diplomacy and bluff seem to be better choices to me.
And UMD doesn't get around his GM's preference for not letting a low Cha character do anything outside of combat.
The term cunning does not have positive linguistic connotations. It may be associated with respect, but pretty rarely likeability.
Nor did i say unplayable, unplayable out of combat, etc etc. Thats baggage y'all are putting on the statement. My gm just isn't going to let a handful of context removed trait boosts override intentionally giving your character a massive social weakness in order to maximize your combat numbers. In the same way as if you dump strength hes going to be a nitpicker about encumbrance, duration of ant haul spells, action economy to retrieve things from differently carried locations and the like.
Edit: traits are not free of roleplay baggage at our table, is basically what im saying, and using cunning and logic to get people to agree to what you want doesn't make one likeable.
Oh, I've seen a few melee going into whip builds. Just that most I've seen stay at range, and the melee are doing melee and not getting off ranged attacks.
Yeah, you can turn any kineticist into a melee capable one at level 9 through 2 wild talents (kinetic blade and whip) and 2 feats (weapon finesse and combat reflexes). Ideally you will have 1 or 2 of the good elemental defenses (aether, earth, water) and you may want to take Kinetic Form later (it honestly doesn't really do anything useful before Kinetic Whip though.)
Before then, you just stay out of melee range, using Kinetic Blade for those situations where you end up there anywhay and can't 5' step and blast (remember, even if it seems like it really ought to, gathering power does *not* provoke AoOs.)
Some of this may change with the Kinetic Knight though.
Genuinely curious:
Cha6 dwarf at Int12. He has bruising intellect and stoic negotiator. RPs a very stubborn and uncompromising dwarf. At Lvl 1 he has diplomacy +4, bluff +4 and intimidate +5 (better face skills than most characters, but completely average for trained ones). Would he be forced to sit out of party planning, not be allowed to buy goods, and be avoided by NPCs?
Cha5 dwarf inquisitor of Torag. Has the conversion inquisition, which states "You are a powerful persuader. A honeyed tongue empowered by divine argumentation sways the indifferent and adversarial to you." He has at lvl1 diplomacy +7, bluff +7, intimidate +8, sense motive +7. Would your table penalize him for his low charisma score, which at this point only mechanically affects the leadership feat, handle animal, and class features if multiclassing?
Edit: traits are not free of roleplay baggage at our table, is basically what im saying, and using cunning and logic to get people to agree to what you want doesn't make one likeable.
I'm not saying that there's no roleplaying attached to the trait at all. Only that it can be used to portray both a character who uses cold logic to convince people as well as a character who is friendly and both is incapable of lying and, when trying to scare people, gets replies of "that's cute."
I played a 5 CHA 18 WIS dwarf inquisitor with the conversion inquisition (and max ranks in social skills) as an RPing challenge a while back. Specifically to try to figure out someone with virtually no redeeming personality qualities could nonetheless be unreasonably persuasive.
I tried to do things like "always talk in a monotone" and "snortlaugh occasionally". She was an accountant (max ranks in profession too!) and I figured out that her persistence due to a utter obliviousness towards social niceties, unreasonable attention to detail, and tendency to systematize everything basically allowed her to bludgeon anybody into submission in an argument. The hardest question was how diplomacy worked, so we interpreted it that she was the "bad cop" who proved that the party was serious-minded and trustworthy, while the target would then consider somebody, anybody, else in the party as a comparative breath of fresh air.
It was a fun character for a brief campaign, but it would have been hard to keep this up for like a year-long game.
Edit: traits are not free of roleplay baggage at our table, is basically what im saying, and using cunning and logic to get people to agree to what you want doesn't make one likeable.I'm not saying that there's no roleplaying attached to the trait at all. Only that it can be used to portray both a character who uses cold logic to convince people as well as a character who is friendly and both is incapable of lying and, when trying to scare people, gets replies of "that's cute."
Except the second option ignores the flavor of the trait. It doesn't say anything about friendly. It talks about cunning and logic. Diplomacy isn't just whether you're friendly, or even likeable, its about getting cooperation without burning a bridge.
Look this could go on forever but here we go
Likeability and personal magnetism is linked to the charisma score.
Nothing about diplomacy says people have to like you cause you made the check, its about getting cooperation.
The flavor of the trait in question doesn't lend itself to a likeable character, just a manipulative one. The attitude changes only last 1d4 hours
Taking a trait or feat that lets you move a skill mod to a different stat doesn't change the fact that stat is low and the 6 stats represent more than just a number that goes next to a skill save or attack bonus.
As for the cha 6 dwarf whose the stubborn no nonsense negotiator? "And...you don't have to bring your dwarf friend." Lord Patronpants mused idly. "I know he means well its just, discussions with him get so...intense and the people at this dinner have a more....refined taste in evening conversation." He stares at his wine as he swirls it. Subtlety, grace, and a willingness to compromise will go farther with the people here than bullheadedness. He may hurt your chances"
As for the inquisitor, again, being a powerful persuader doesn't mean you're liked. People have to give you the time of day before you have enough time to be using diplomacy, nearly every use of which takes a minute or more of interaction. Granted once you have them you're probably going to succeed.
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Oh, I've seen a few melee going into whip builds. Just that most I've seen stay at range, and the melee are doing melee and not getting off ranged attacks.Yeah, you can turn any kineticist into a melee capable one at level 9 through 2 wild talents (kinetic blade and whip) and 2 feats (weapon finesse and combat reflexes). Ideally you will have 1 or 2 of the good elemental defenses (aether, earth, water) and you may want to take Kinetic Form later (it honestly doesn't really do anything useful before Kinetic Whip though.)
Before then, you just stay out of melee range, using Kinetic Blade for those situations where you end up there anywhay and can't 5' step and blast (remember, even if it seems like it really ought to, gathering power does *not* provoke AoOs.)
Some of this may change with the Kinetic Knight though.
I must disagree. I've been getting in close to bring down water's wrath since I dropped out of the Houses of Perfection to join the Pathfinders. You don't need anything but a little finesse and the patience to gather energy before striking. The elements hit harder than most small folk can with weapons, even early on.