| Panchio |
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
Ok, I have figured a really funny concept for a build that I want to try out now, and I would like you guys to help me make it real:
We all know (most of us, at least) that you can't use acrobatics to move through threatened squares if you are wearing medium or heavy armor, as written at the Acrobatics skill:
"You cannot use Acrobatics to move past foes if your speed is reduced due to carrying a medium or heavy load or wearing medium or heavy armor."
BUT only now, reading again this skill (always something new to discover) I found out an exception I've never heard of:
"If an ability allows you to move at full speed under such conditions, you can use Acrobatics to move past foes."
This actually means that Dwarfs CAN use acrobatics to move through foes, even on heavy armor, just as full plates, because they have slow and steady:
" (Slow and Steady) Dwarves have a base speed of 20 feet, but their speed is never modified by armor or encumbrance."
After all that small talk, I REALLY want to make a dwarf wearing full plate, rolling arouund the grid and astonishing everyone with his grace on metal.
I am thinking about some Fighter/Rogue build, taking only 2 levels with rogue. The 2 levels on rogue are mainly for: acrobatics as class skill, and Lethal Acrobatics:
"Lethal Acrobatics: When a rogue with this talent successfully uses Acrobatics to move through an opponent’s square without provoking an attack of opportunity, that opponent is considered flat-footed to the rogue’s next attack until the end of the rogue’s turn."
Then, with fighter, I'd go with Dodge, Mobility, Power Attack, Imp. Overun, Charge Through and the Bullet Charge Style Feat.
So, any other thoughts on the build? Lets smash da fools!
| Panchio |
So your build seem at odds. If you're overrunning then you aren't using acrobatics to move through their square.
I am not using acrobatics only against the overun target.
Picture tree creatures side, by side, I want to go through the one at the middle, the other two will provoke atks of opportunity if I dont pass an acrobatic test.
But the whole point of the character is the doing acrobatics with full plate (lol) thing, the overun is just a way of exploiting the fact that I ll be dancing around the grid like a fool
| Alzrius |
If you can use Unchained's variant multiclassing, the option to multiclass as a fighter will get you armor training I at 7th level, letting you move at your full speed in medium armor.
Technically, you'd also gain the ability to move at your full speed in heavy armor at 7th level also, since the variant multiclassing for fighter says you just gain armor training I, and the text for armor training I says you gain your full move in heavy armor at 7th level, but I have to wonder if that'd be considered playing dirty.
Tryin' to catch you playin' dirty.
Tryin' to catch you playin' dirty.
Tryin' to catch you playin' dirty.
| Panchio |
I've had this idea too. Although you still have the armour check penalty to deal with to actually make the acrobatics roll DCs, at least you can try it.
I've made a simulator with the Traven Tokens 3.75, at lvl 11, WITH THE full plate penalty, I'd have +20 on acrobatics checks (with the armor training class ability 1 and 2), which is a pretty good bonus!
| Panchio |
If you can use Unchained's variant multiclassing, the option to multiclass as a fighter will get you armor training I at 7th level, letting you move at your full speed in medium armor.
The problem is I will need a lot of feats for this build (as I ll be taking feats like Skill Focus and Athletic, which means I ll probably need to be a fighter AND not take the variant multiclassing, for it ll make me loose a lot of feats.
| Panchio |
The game is starting at lvl 2, which is good, for it ll let me start alreay as a rogue/fighter, I am plaining the build like this:
Str 14
Dex 16
Con 13
Int 9
Wis 12
Cha 8
Fighter 1 Power Attack
Feat lvl 1 Skill Focus: Acrobatics.
Feat Lvl 3: Athletic
Rogue Talent Level 2: Lethal Acrobatics
Fighter 2 (4th lvl): Imp Overun
Feat lvl 5: Charge Through.
Fighter 4 (6th lvl): Doddge.
Lvl 7: Mobility.
Fighter 6: Bullete Charge
Fighter 7: Run (feat) as an advanced armor training with armor sprint.
Lvl 9: Bullete lvl 2.
| Panchio |
Just make sure you grab mithral armor, and you should be good. Certainly an entertaining sight.
I want to be really amusing, not depending on the mithral crap. I ll roleplay a really country-side dwarf, originated of a poor household, that believes "soft metals" are lame metals, and only uses true hard made metals, so that he won't use mithral (maybe adamantine in the future).
| Chess Pwn |
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Chess Pwn wrote:So your build seem at odds. If you're overrunning then you aren't using acrobatics to move through their square.I am not using acrobatics only against the overun target.
Picture tree creatures side, by side, I want to go through the one at the middle, the other two will provoke atks of opportunity if I dont pass an acrobatic test.
But the whole point of the character is the doing acrobatics with full plate (lol) thing, the overun is just a way of exploiting the fact that I ll be dancing around the grid like a fool
So if you do that then "Lethal Acrobatics" never will trigger. Which then questions why you dipped to get it.
Also, with only 20ft of movement, I'm not sure I'd call that dancing around the battlefield.
| Panchio |
Panchio wrote:Chess Pwn wrote:So your build seem at odds. If you're overrunning then you aren't using acrobatics to move through their square.I am not using acrobatics only against the overun target.
Picture tree creatures side, by side, I want to go through the one at the middle, the other two will provoke atks of opportunity if I dont pass an acrobatic test.
But the whole point of the character is the doing acrobatics with full plate (lol) thing, the overun is just a way of exploiting the fact that I ll be dancing around the grid like a fool
So if you do that then "Lethal Acrobatics" never will trigger. Which then questions why you dipped to get it.
Also, with only 20ft of movement, I'm not sure I'd call that dancing around the battlefield.
It ll trigger against adjacent foes (not the targets of the maneuver). But I agree, not that usefull, I just took a look at the rogue talents and took the related with acrobatics that seemed the most cool, and this one was it.
The 20 ft movement is a real problem, specially if I consider it ll cost me 2 squares per target I passby with Acrobatics. I can always use acrobatics as part of a charge (there for moving 40 ft instead of 20 ft), and with Charge Through I can even pass throug targets, so that ll grant me passing 4 foes in a row, probably knoking then down as I do it.
Also, I can always count with haste as a recorrent buff from my fellow casters :3
| Kris Verschaeve |
I Think you have stumbled upon the missing piece of an awesome TWF ruge sap adept build because of the Flat footed part in lethal acrobatics
Circling mongoose
Prerequisite(s): Dex 13, Dodge, Mobility, Spring Attack, base attack bonus +6.
Benefit: When you are adjacent to a foe, as a full-round action, you can take a full-attack action to make melee attacks against the foe, moving 5 feet before each attack. You must move 5 feet before each melee attack you make, and can't exceed your maximum speed, exceed your maximum number of attacks in a round, or attack any other target until the beginning of your next turn.
You must remain adjacent to the foe, and your movement provokes attacks of opportunity as normal unless you succeed at the appropriate Acrobatics checks. If your first attack against the foe hits, you are considered to be flanking the foe on your second attack. Subsequent attacks made as part of the full-attack action continue to be treated as if you were flanking the foe until one of your attacks misses, at which point your attacks are treated normally.
Combine this lethal acrobatics which would trigger on the first attack and all of the subsequent attacks to make flat footed and Sap master and you can just walk around an enemy and b@&+& slap him for double sneak attack damage.
| Panchio |
I Think you have stumbled upon the missing piece of an awesome TWF ruge sap adept build because of the Flat footed part in lethal acrobatics
Circling mongoose
Prerequisite(s): Dex 13, Dodge, Mobility, Spring Attack, base attack bonus +6.Benefit: When you are adjacent to a foe, as a full-round action, you can take a full-attack action to make melee attacks against the foe, moving 5 feet before each attack. You must move 5 feet before each melee attack you make, and can't exceed your maximum speed, exceed your maximum number of attacks in a round, or attack any other target until the beginning of your next turn.
You must remain adjacent to the foe, and your movement provokes attacks of opportunity as normal unless you succeed at the appropriate Acrobatics checks. If your first attack against the foe hits, you are considered to be flanking the foe on your second attack. Subsequent attacks made as part of the full-attack action continue to be treated as if you were flanking the foe until one of your attacks misses, at which point your attacks are treated normally.
Combine this lethal acrobatics which would trigger on the first attack and all of the subsequent attacks to make flat footed and Sap master and you can just walk around an enemy and b~&#~ slap him for double sneak attack damage.
I was thinking on taking two weapon fighting, actually, mainly because I picture my dwarf with a great axe OR two axes (dwarven and a light one).
That is a great idea!
| Chess Pwn |
It ll trigger against adjacent foes (not the targets of the maneuver). But I agree, not that usefull, I just took a look at the rogue talents and took the related with acrobatics that seemed the most cool, and this one was it.
The 20 ft movement is a real problem, specially if I consider it ll cost me 2 squares per target I passby with Acrobatics. I can always use acrobatics as part of a charge (there for moving 40 ft instead of 20 ft), and with Charge Through I can even pass throug targets, so that ll grant me passing 4 foes in a row, probably knoking then down as I do it.
Also, I can always count with haste as a recorrent buff from my fellow casters :3
No you won't.
It only triggers when you "move through an opponent’s square". NOT when you move through a square an opponent threatens. So you need to tumble THROUGH an enemy to have the rogue talent do anything. Not just move around a target| Panchio |
No you won't.
It only triggers when you "move through an opponent’s square". NOT when you move through a square an opponent threatens. So you need to tumble THROUGH an enemy to have the rogue talent do anything.Still, i am facing one foe, I move through him, he becomes flat flooted, I overun him without dex on CMD.
| Panchio |
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Panchio wrote:It ll trigger against adjacent foes (not the targets of the maneuver). But I agree, not that usefull, I just took a look at the rogue talents and took the related with acrobatics that seemed the most cool, and this one was it.
The 20 ft movement is a real problem, specially if I consider it ll cost me 2 squares per target I passby with Acrobatics. I can always use acrobatics as part of a charge (there for moving 40 ft instead of 20 ft), and with Charge Through I can even pass throug targets, so that ll grant me passing 4 foes in a row, probably knoking then down as I do it.
Also, I can always count with haste as a recorrent buff from my fellow casters :3
No you won't.
It only triggers when you "move through an opponent’s square". NOT when you move through a square an opponent threatens. So you need to tumble THROUGH an enemy to have the rogue talent do anything. Not just move around a target
But you are right, I read it wrong, it wont trigger against adjacent targets. Still, a funny thing to do with acrobatics, letting me hit someone once in a while without dex on AC.
| Chess Pwn |
Int 3 is able to understand and speak human languages.
Int 3 area is your mentally handicapped people.
int 5 are your learning challenged people, a struggle and difficult to pull a non-failing grade.
int 7 are your people that need to do more work and take a little longer to understand something, but are quite capable of passing and doing well.
int 9 and 11 are your normal people.
int 13 and 15 are the honors and A+ people.
Higher are your crazy smart people.
EDIT: it should be noted in the common and elite stats that an 8 is the low stat. Also there are races that have an int penalty, meaning that int 7 or lower is quite probable because 2 scores could result in that situation for the common stats.
So either an 8 is normal and a 7 is retarded and you have 6 and lower as... more severe retardation? But still capable of communicating until reaching an int of 3.
Which also kinda means that roughly 1/3 of certain races are retarded.
Or you can make retardation a more rare occurrence and have it not be possible for Players to reach that level, and players can reach a 5 with point buy and the int dumped race.
| Panchio |
Int 3 is able to understand and speak human languages.
Int 3 area is your mentally handicapped people.
int 5 are your learning challenged people, a struggle and difficult to pull a non-failing grade.
int 7 are your people that need to do more work and take a little longer to understand something, but are quite capable of passing and doing well.
int 9 and 11 are your normal people.
int 13 and 15 are the honors and A+ people.
Higher are your crazy smart people.
Where did you find this? By this table, I guess I would be a 7, really.
| Chess Pwn |
It's stated somewhere that A 3 is able to understand and communicate language, but a 2 isn't.
So it's basically correlating that to say that a 3 is the lowest int and still be considered human. Which seems like the right spot to place the mentally challenged people, they are still people and can communicate and thus function somewhat.
Then it's going up and saying that every 2 points is a "mental step" and that it follows a kind of bell curve so that as you approach 10 the difference is lessened.
| Panchio |
It's stated somewhere that A 3 is able to understand and communicate language, but a 2 isn't.
So it's basically correlating that to say that a 3 is the lowest int and still be considered human. Which seems like the right spot to place the mentally challenged people, they are still people and can communicate and thus function somewhat.
Then it's going up and saying that every 2 points is a "mental step" and that it follows a kind of bell curve so that as you approach 10 the difference is lessened.
I see. I wish they could made an official table about this, including all the stats
This has caused many discussions with my friends at bars hahahaha
Gray Warden
|
As long as you don't pretend to be some sort of Stephen Hawking, you don't have to roleplay the specific number on your stats. Just be roughly coherent with your character. I interpret them in this way:
Int 5-7 (mod -3/-2): not the sharpest knife in the drawer
Int 8-11 (mod -1/0): average
Int 12-15 (mod +1/+2): promising
Int 16-19 (mod +3/+4): very talented
Int 20+ (mod >= +5): increasing degrees of genius
| Panchio |
As long as you don't pretend to be some sort of Stephen Hawking, you don't have to roleplay the specific number on your stats. Just be roughly coherent with your character. I interpret them in this way:
Int 5-7 (mod -3/-2): not the sharpest knife in the drawer
Int 8-11 (mod -1/0): average
Int 12-15 (mod +1/+2): promising
Int 16-19 (mod +3/+4): very talented
Int 20+ (mod >= +5): increasing degrees of genius
I agree, but I like when the roleplaying is builded on a two lined road way, you make your sheet based on the concept of the character you want to play, but simutaneously the sheet limitations modifies
your original roleplay into something new.| Inlaa |
Hm. Honestly, what about:
3 levels of rogue (for 2d6 SAD), or 4 levels (for a bonus feat as a talent at level 4). 2 levels of Siegebreaker Fighter (because it's awesome). Then either choose Vigilante (Avenger) OR Molthuni Arsenal Chaplain Warpriest OR a Barbarian OR Bloodrager.
Siegebreaker Fighter has great synergy with the Bulette Style feats. Your goal is to ram things and make them dead. Rogue's SAD will benefit you because you're using acrobatics to ram into things anyway and they'll be flat-footed, thus susceptible to SAD damage. And since you're taking 4 levels of Rogue, why not take the Bandit archetype to do better in the Surprise Round?
Thus, assuming 2 levels of Rogue and 2 levels of Siegebreaker Fighter, plus some other class afterwards (let's go with armored hulk barbarian), you have...
R1 1) SAD 1d6, Power Attack
R2 2) Evasion, Lethal Acrobatics
F1 3) Breaker Rush (aw yis), Improved Overrun
F2 4) Armored Vigor, Breaker Momentum (AW YIS)
B1 5) Indomitable Stance (very dwarfy), Rage, Bulette Charge Style
B2 6) Overbearing Advance, Armored Swiftness
B3 7) Resilience of Steel, Bulette Rampage
B4 8) Knockback
Let's assume you started with 16 STR at chargen and added 2 points to it as you leveled, so you have 22 STR in rage right now. Let's also assume Full Plate +2.
So let's see what this means:
Enter Rage as a free action. You use Acrobatics (because you're a dwarf) to charge at someone in full plate and NOT get attacked. You're badass like that.
You connect. You bullrush them, dealing 10 damage from Breaker Rush. You also get a free overrun attempt, now dealing 10 more damage from Breaker Rush, but also 6 more from Overbearing Advance, and 1d8+9(STR)+5 (1/2 armor bonus). So, mathing that all up... 1d8+40, or 41-48 damage with a simple bull rush on a single enemy. If there's a line of enemies, you can bull rush and overrun the whole lot of them. If they're standing in front of a wall, you can smash them all into that wall.
On the second turn, you get AoOs on anyone that's standing up. And you can potentially start a bullrush string all over again.
But you know what? Let's take ONE more level this time, just for fun, this time in Rogue.
R1 1) SAD 1d6, Power Attack
R2 2) Evasion, Lethal Acrobatics
F1 3) Breaker Rush (aw yis), Improved Overrun
F2 4) Armored Vigor, Breaker Momentum (AW YIS)
B1 5) Indomitable Stance (very dwarfy), Rage, Bulette Charge Style
B2 6) Overbearing Advance, Armored Swiftness
B3 7) Resilience of Steel, Bulette Rampage
B4 8) Knockback
R3 9) 2d6 SAD, Spiked Destroyer
Okay, let's talk about what this means.
Enemies are flat-footed to you when you use your acrobatics roll against them, right? So let's say you just did your bullrush on a guy last turn for 41-48 damage. Except now you have +1 armor spikes (adamantine, perhaps?), dealing 1d4+1+STR damage, or 1d4+7 in your case. The damage dealt just went up to 1d8+1d4+47, or 49-59. Um, nice.
Well, now you're gonna bullrush him again. This time, he's considered flatfooted to you. You bull rush, and because you succeed he takes damage from your armor spikes. But because you're attacking with armor spikes, you're getting off a Sneak Attack. He'll take 2d6 damage from your sneak attack because he's considered flatfooted, making your total damage for Bull Rush to equal 51-71.
On one guy.
Now, you can only get the Armor Spikes damage boost once per turn (it's a swift action), but I think this is a kickass combo. A one-level dip into Snakebite Brawler for full BAB and an extra d6 doesn't sound too shabby.
| Panchio |
Hm. Honestly, what about:
3 levels of rogue (for 2d6 SAD), or 4 levels (for a bonus feat as a talent at level 4). 2 levels of Siegebreaker Fighter (because it's awesome). Then either choose Vigilante (Avenger) OR Molthuni Arsenal Chaplain Warpriest OR a Barbarian OR Bloodrager.
Siegebreaker Fighter has great synergy with the Bulette Style feats. Your goal is to ram things and make them dead. Rogue's SAD will benefit you because you're using acrobatics to ram into things anyway and they'll be flat-footed, thus susceptible to SAD damage. And since you're taking 4 levels of Rogue, why not take the Bandit archetype to do better in the Surprise Round?
Thus, assuming 2 levels of Rogue and 2 levels of Siegebreaker Fighter, plus some other class afterwards (let's go with armored hulk barbarian), you have...
R1 1) SAD 1d6, Power Attack
R2 2) Evasion, Lethal Acrobatics
F1 3) Breaker Rush (aw yis), Improved Overrun
F2 4) Armored Vigor, Breaker Momentum (AW YIS)
B1 5) Indomitable Stance (very dwarfy), Rage, Bulette Charge Style
B2 6) Overbearing Advance, Armored Swiftness
B3 7) Resilience of Steel, Bulette Rampage
B4 8) KnockbackLet's assume you started with 16 STR at chargen and added 2 points to it as you leveled, so you have 22 STR in rage right now. Let's also assume Full Plate +2.
So let's see what this means:
Enter Rage as a free action. You use Acrobatics (because you're a dwarf) to charge at someone in full plate and NOT get attacked. You're badass like that.
You connect. You bullrush them, dealing 10 damage from Breaker Rush. You also get a free overrun attempt, now dealing 10 more damage from Breaker Rush,...
I really liked this build hahaha
Thank you for the ideas!
| Inlaa |
Oh, and you want this racial ability as a dwarf:
Relentless: Dwarves are skilled at pushing their way through a battlefield, tossing aside lesser foes with ease. Dwarves with this racial trait receive a +2 bonus on combat maneuver checks made to bull rush or overrun an opponent. This bonus only applies while both the dwarf and his opponent are standing on the ground. This racial trait replaces stability.
Alternatively, if you decide to keep Stability, consider the following feat: Ledge Walker.
Which basically means you can probably charge across thin slopes and stuff without any real problems when others would be stopped.
For cool points and an option to use when you're backed up against a wall with an enemy right in front of you, consider the Smashing Style feat along with Weapon Style Mastery to use it alongside Bulette Style. Basically, if you're backed up against a wall, you can sunder an enemy's armor and get a free bullrush attempt on them. With Smashing Dent as well, this reduces their armor bonus by 1, you get to try to break their armor, AND you get a free bull rush followed by a free overrun and potentially followed by a free armor spikes attack. Oh, and you'd still get your full attack on your enemy since you can do this in place of a single attack in your iteratives.
There's also the Shield Slam route, which is probably your best route after you get all the stuff in that 9 level build I posted. Presumably, you'd be able to bash someone with your shield while they stand directly in front of you (thus dealing damage with your shield), get a free bull rush, etc. etc. And if they happen to be right in front of a wall themselves, couldn't you repeatedly shield slam them for more bull rushes and overruns in the same turn?
I'm not sure on the RAW on that last thought, but if you CAN, that makes bull rushing people into walls and then beating them senseless with a shield AWESOME.
| Inlaa |
You know what? I want to see how much more fun this gets.
R=Rogue, F=Siegebreaker Fighter, B=Armored Hulk Barbarian, S=Snakebite Striker Brawler, V=Avenger Vigilante
R1 1) SAD 1d6, Power Attack
R2 2) Evasion, Lethal Acrobatics
F1 3) Breaker Rush (aw yis), Improved Overrun
F2 4) Armored Vigor, Breaker Momentum (AW YIS)
B1 5) Indomitable Stance (very dwarfy), Rage, Bulette Charge Style
B2 6) Overbearing Advance, Armored Swiftness
B3 7) Resilience of Steel, Bulette Rampage
B4 8) Knockback
R3 9) 2d6 SAD, Spiked Destroyer
S1 10) 3d6 SAD, Unarmed Strike, Martial Training
V1 11) Improved Shield Bash
V2 12) Two-Weapon Fighting
V3 13) Shield Slam
V4 14) Improved Bull Rush
V5 15) Greater Bull Rush
Okay, so your SAD is now 3d6, you're still only 1 BAB behind a single-classed full BAB guy, and you're able to slam someone repeatedly once they're against a wall.
Round 1: Bull rush something, free overrun blah blah blah. You knock 'em good and hard, shoving them up against a wall. They're flatfooted. Next round they stand up and fight back; who cares. You're a dwarf.
Okay. Your turn. Shield slam; free bull rush; free overrun. Shield slam again; free bullrush; free overrun. Shield slam one more time; it all happens again.
This SHOULD work because...
1. You CAN bullrush them while they're against a wall; they just won't move through the wall.
2. You're doing your bull rushes and overruns as free actions as part of your shield slam.
3. The only ruling I could see making this not work is someone declaring "You have to move into their square to Overrun them." I'm not sure that applies to this situation. But even then, you're at LEAST getting free bull rushes on an enemy standing literally 5 free in front of you. That's awesome.
This just seems like a super fun build to do in general.
Oh, and don't forget that you can two-hand your shield. Enchant the shield and the shield spikes.
BTW, this second half of the setup comes online at level 13; 14 and 15 are just there to make you better at Bull Rushing in general (and also to make your bull rushed enemies provoke AoOs when they fly past your allies).
And don't ACTUALLY use two-weapon fighting with this setup. Just shield slam. Just shield slam.
EDIT: Also, level 16? Take a second level of Snakebite Brawler. Heavy Shields and Spiked Shields are technically in the Close weapon category, so you can shield slam someone repeatedly with Brawler's Flurry for 4 attacks a turn at level 16. At level 17, it's 5 shield slams a round.
This is beautiful.
Basically, you have an acceptable number of skill points (and potentially Trapfinding if you used the base rogue instead of an archetype), so you're not a terrible skillmonkey. You have great combat capabilities. You can either Bull Rush things for great effect OR stand in one place and shield slam them repeatedly. Finally, because you're STR based, you can get a Belt of Mighty Hurling and boost its STR bonus really high so that you can use STR for thrown weapons, giving you a third means of fighting.
This is really not that bad of a build. You'll need Extra Rage though, probably at level 17. For Quick Draw you can put the Training enchantment (Quick Draw) on your shield spikes (since your shield IS in your hand this works). Ergo, by holding your shield you can make a full attack with your thrown weapons without difficulty.
| Chess Pwn |
back in DnD all the stats started out at 8 for the point buy for stats. Reason being that an 8 was the average for people. I believe this was stated in some book.
In pathfinder the base is 10, so similarly one could say that the average for pathfinder is 10, it's where you aren't taking a penalty or getting a bonus and thus is the average.
Average being used here is meaning the base benchmark. ex. the average forth grader reads at a fourth grade level. So while this isn't an average of a defined group, it's the expected benchmark level.
| Inlaa |
@Inlaa: is there anything in that build which would let you bull rush or overrun a target larger than size Large?
Sort of.
Let me admit that I didn't choose the absolute BEST option now that I think about it. The absolute BEST option for this build is this:
Seriously, in between the dotted lines below is the best way of handling this
--------------------------------------------------------------------------- -----------------
Do what the guy in the other thread did and use a Primalist Untouchable Steelblood Bloodrager for 8 levels instead of Barbarian for 4 levels. (Again, 4 levels by level 9, then 4 more right afterwards.) You get Bloodrage, you get spell resistance. At level 4 of Bloodrager you'd get your Abyssal Bloodrage power to grow bigger when you rage; at level 8 you'd get the two Bloodrage powers I listed in the build already.
This should stack with Enlarge Person, meaning you can become a Huge sized dwarf and tackle big ugly things.
Nevermind, it acts like Enlarge Person, so probably not. But still a cool idea, and still probably the best option.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------- -----------------
But let's assume you don't want to take Bloodrager levels with 3 archetypes. What else can you do?
Firstly, you'll benefit from size-increasing effects anyway, so chances are you're going to want Enlarge Person by some means. Given that, I imagine potions of Enlarge Person or scrolls of it are kept around you. But if we want to be self-sufficient about this, we can take Bloodrage Powers as a Barbarian.
Look at this one:
Prerequisite(s): Barbarian 6, abyssal blood (lesser)
Benefit(s): Once per day when the barbarian enters a rage, she can choose to grow one size category larger than her base size (as enlarge person, even if the barbarian isn't humanoid).
Okay. So, let's assume we take Barbarian to 8 after we get the third Rogue level. That lets use become Large 1/day. Not great, but that's an option.
But as said, just having Extended Enlarge Person available is a much better option. It lasts 1 min/level, so a 10th level buddy of ours could make us Large for 20 minutes at a time. That's a long enough duration that we can cast it when we're pretty sure there's a fight coming. And just because we're good teammates, we'll get a Lesser Extend Metamagic Rod to give to our friend from our own money in return for these favors each day.
Now, there IS another option, and it's a cool one, and it stacks with Enlarge Person as far as I can tell. However, I frankly don't like it because of how feat intensive it is:
Greater Eldritch Heritage (Orc Bloodline).
This requires 4 feats to make it work: Skill Focus (Survival), Eldritch Heritage, Improved Eldritch Heritage, and Greater Eldritch Heritage. We can cut down on the number of feats by 1 if we use the Training Enchantment and put Greater Eldritch Heritage on it, but that means we don't get free Quick Draw. This also means we'll either be taking this as an end-game ability OR we'll be taking this before the Shield Slam stuff.
But basically we get to be a giant dwarf for 1 min/charlevel and it CAN stack with Enlarge Person as far as I can tell. It's too costly for what it does, however. But this means that you can tackle Large creatures with Enlarge Person and use your Orc bloodline power to grow a size category to bullrush Huge things.
Honestly, what I would suggest is taking a 1 level dip into Sorcerer (Eldritch Scrapper) so we can get Martial Flexibility out of it and use Arcane scrolls with no big issue. Then we purchase the highest level Enlarge Person scrolls we can and cast them on our own self when we have to tackle something big.
And, of course, Boots of the Mastodon for when there's something even bigger than Large we need to tackle.
Finally, an alternative to being a Dwarf is being a Duergar, who get Enlarge Person as a racial SLA anyway.
| Trinam |
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back in DnD all the stats started out at 8 for the point buy for stats. Reason being that an 8 was the average for people. I believe this was stated in some book.
In pathfinder the base is 10, so similarly one could say that the average for pathfinder is 10, it's where you aren't taking a penalty or getting a bonus and thus is the average.
Average being used here is meaning the base benchmark. ex. the average forth grader reads at a fourth grade level. So while this isn't an average of a defined group, it's the expected benchmark level.
Act-cha-lee...
The normal human range is 3 to 18.
This means average is 10-11, thanks bell curves. This is also why 10-11 are the +0.
As to why the system started at 8? Well, that's another kettle of fish.
The following point buy values can be used as a standard for Dungeons and Dragons 3.0 and 3.5 games during the creation of PCs, as an alternative to dice-based generation.
Standard point-buy values are 25 and 32, but the DM may prescribe others.
Each stat begins at 8.
A stat of 9 costs 1 point.
A stat of 10 costs 2 points.
A stat of 11 costs 3 points.
A stat of 12 costs 4 points.
A stat of 13 costs 5 points.
A stat of 14 costs 6 points.
A stat of 15 costs 8 points.
A stat of 16 costs 10 points.
A stat of 17 costs 13 points.
A stat of 18 costs 16 points.
It was because their system didn't allow dump stats for bonus points and had a different point distribution+higher point buy values to compensate. If you don't start at a -something with those rules, nobody ever has a proper low stat and that's no fun. But this isn't really why I'm here, it's just some neat trivia.
| AM BARBARIAN |
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THEY SEE ROLLIN, AM HATIN
PERCEPTIONIN TRYIN TO CATCH ROLLIN DIRTY
SPEED STAT AM SO HIGH, AM CHARGIN
SPLATTING CASTYS WHO TRYIN TO CATCH ROLLIN DIRTY
CASTY MIND BLANKIN THINK THAT AM NOT BE SEEN
GO 'WHAT' WHEN BARBARIAN HIT THE SCENE
GET MAD CRITS CAUSE YOU KNOW +5 LANCE AM KEEN
AM RAGE, AM SUNDER, AM SPLAT EVERYTHING
BATTY BAT IN SPIN BEST TO BE WARY
FIGHT AM NOT LIKELY TO BE SCARY
UNLESS NOT BARBARIAN, THEN AM SCARY
CASTY GO SPLAT LIKE RUN FOR DAIRY
EQUIPMENT AM ALL TOTALLY GEARED OUT
GOT PEOPLE BEGGING FOR POSTING SKILLS
BUT AM STILL WAITING FOR REQUEST BE FILLED
FOR SCHRODINGER CASTY TO PUT UP BUILD
AM GRADUATING WITH AWESOME PHD
EVEN IF DOOR AM LOCKED AM NEVER NEEDING KEY
SMASH OPEN WALL BEFORE COUNT AM GET TO THREE
GONNA SUNDER EVEN IF AM TRYING TO FLEE
AM NO FIGHT BARBARIAN NOT WON
AT SUNDER AM NUMBER ONE
PUNCH DEATH IN FACE WITH LANCE FOR FUN
NOT NEED GAT, BARBARIAN HAVE HUGE GUNS
SUNDER CHECKS AT PLUS ELEVENTY ONE
AM KICKING BUTTS THROUGHOUT GOLARI-ON
ONE BARBAIAN ENGINE OF DESTRUCTION
ONCE SMASH DRIVE THROUGH WHEN ORDER AM WRONG
(BARBARIAN NOT WANT SAUCE ON)
AM SEEING ORDER, A BURGER
ROLL INIT, AM TRYIN CATCH ROLLIN DIRTY
SEND CASTY SKULL THROUGH, A DANCE FLOOR
DISCO ON FIRE, THAT AM DANCIN DIRTY
BUT AM NOT ROLLIN DIRTY
BARBARIAN NOT NEED ROLLIN DIRTY
| Inlaa |
I'm a dumbie. You can already Bull Rush things 1 size category larger than you. So in that vein:
B = Untouchable Primalist Steelblood Bloodrager now.
R1 1) SAD 1d6, Power Attack
R2 2) Evasion, Lethal Acrobatics
F1 3) Breaker Rush (aw yis), Improved Overrun
F2 4) Armored Vigor, Breaker Momentum (AW YIS)
B1 5) Claws, Indomitable Stance (very dwarfy), Bloodage, Bulette Charge Style
B2 6) Overbearing Advance, Armored Swiftness
B3 7) Resilience of Steel, Bulette Rampage
B4 8) Demonic Bulk, SR 8+Bloodrager Level
R3 9) 2d6 SAD, Spiked Destroyer
B5 10) Armor Training 1
B6 11) Improved Bullrush (BONUS), Improved Shield Bash
B7 12) Blood Deflection
B8 13) Overbearing Advance, Knockback, Two-Weapon Fighting
S1 14) 3d6 SAD, Unarmed Strike, Martial Training
V1 15) Shield Slam
V2 16) Greater Bull Rush
Basically, you delay Greater Bull Rush a level, but in return you get a free-from-rage Enlarge Person, allowing you to smack Huge creatures on their ass and stomp all over them. That's probably good enough for most encounters. You can start doing this by level 8, but your build really comes online at level 9 and then again at level 13.
Gargantuan and Colossal will still pose problems, so keep those mammoth boots handy.
Personally, I prefer the Barbarian build over the Bloodrager one. It comes completely online earlier (level 9 versus level 13), and as previously said, you can always keep spells of Enlarge Person handy, either through potions or scrolls or friendly mage buddies.
#AdventurersAreNeverAlone
| avr |
Scrolls won't work - they take arcane spell failure and heavy armor's a bit time consuming to remove and rearm. Potions and buddies though, they work.
The Boots of the Mastodon give you a +2 to overrun checks (nice but not worth 10 500 gp) and a 1/day trample against creatures up to Large size no matter what your size is ... which sounds amusing as can be on your sprite familiar but not a lot of use to your dwarven wrecking ball.
| Inlaa |
Yeah, I think the solution to creatures larger than Huge might have to be getting the Orc bloodline somehow. But that's tough.
Option 1: VMC Sorcerer. But that's... ugh. Those lost feats hurt so much. It slows your progression SO MUCH.
Option 2: Just use feats and the Training enchantment.
With the original 15 level build, you'll have problems because Skill Focus and the Eldritch Heritage feats are all NOT combat feats. So, your best best to be able to bump things bigger than Huge size is to slow your feat progression. Take Skill Focus at level 15, bumping Shield Slam and Greater Bull Rush into 16 and 18 respectively. At 17 and 19 you get Eldritch Heritage / Improved Eldritch Heritage, and you can enchant those shield spikes for Greater Eldritch Heritage.
And you can now turn into a giant dwarf, get poked by a friend and made ever giant-er, and so be a Huge sized dwarf that can knock down uglies. But for this to work, you HAVE to use your orc ability first, and THEN apply the Enlarge Person effect - I think that's the RAW. Maybe your DM will disagree and you can do it in either order.
But yeah, that lets you bull rush and overrun Gargantuan creatures. That's, uh, most things. But you gotta be level 19 for that to work.
Scrolls won't work - they take arcane spell failure and heavy armor's a bit time consuming to remove and rearm. Potions and buddies though, they work.
The Boots of the Mastodon give you a +2 to overrun checks (nice but not worth 10 500 gp) and a 1/day trample against creatures up to Large size no matter what your size is ... which sounds amusing as can be on your sprite familiar but not a lot of use to your dwarven wrecking ball.
Thanks for pointing that out. I complete misread the boots part.
| avr |
There's got to be an easier way. And with a bit of searching I found it; Poised Bearing and if necessary Imposing Bearing. Which means you need 3+ levels of siegebreaker fighter to get armor training. But with those two feats and enlarge person you can bull rush anything.
| Inlaa |
There's got to be an easier way. And with a bit of searching I found it; Poised Bearing and if necessary Imposing Bearing. Which means you need 3+ levels of siegebreaker fighter to get armor training. But with those two feats and enlarge person you can bull rush anything.
...
I...
You did it. You fixed the build. Anything is possible now.
I'll work this into the build tomorrow and see what I come up with. I just checked and the Siegebreaker DOES get Armor Training.
This will be the best. Dwarf. Ever.
| Inlaa |
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I lied I'm doing this now.
R=Rogue, F=Siegebreaker Fighter, B=Armored Hulk Barbarian, S=Snakebite Striker Brawler, V=Avenger Vigilante
R1 1) SAD 1d6, Power Attack
R2 2) Evasion, Lethal Acrobatics
F1 3) Breaker Rush (aw yis), Improved Overrun
F2 4) Armored Vigor, Breaker Momentum (AW YIS)
B1 5) Indomitable Stance (very dwarfy), Rage, Bulette Charge Style
B2 6) Overbearing Advance, Armored Swiftness
B3 7) Resilience of Steel, Bulette Rampage
B4 8) Knockback
R3 9) 2d6 SAD, Spiked Destroyer
S1 10) 3d6 SAD, Unarmed Strike, Martial Training
F3 11) Armor Training 1, Poised Bearing
V1 12) -
V2 13) Two-Weapon Fighting, Imposing Bearing
V3 14) -
V4 15) Improved Shield Bash, Shield Slam
V5 16) -
V6 17) Improved Bull Rush, Greater Bull Rush
Worth it.
And if you wanted to do without the Shield Slam setup until later in lieu of better bull rushes:
R1 1) SAD 1d6, Power Attack
R2 2) Evasion, Lethal Acrobatics
F1 3) Breaker Rush (aw yis), Improved Overrun
F2 4) Armored Vigor, Breaker Momentum (AW YIS)
B1 5) Indomitable Stance (very dwarfy), Rage, Bulette Charge Style
B2 6) Overbearing Advance, Armored Swiftness
B3 7) Resilience of Steel, Bulette Rampage
B4 8) Knockback
R3 9) 2d6 SAD, Spiked Destroyer
S1 10) 3d6 SAD, Unarmed Strike, Martial Training
F3 11) Armor Training 1, Poised Bearing
V1 12) -
V2 13) Improved Bull Rush, Imposing Bearing
V3 14) -
V4 15) Greater Bull Rush, TWF
V5 16) -
V6 17) Improved Shield Bash, Shield Slam
Or if you want, consider taking a regular Brawler instead of a Snakebite Brawler. You can get 1 bonus feat of your choice via Martial Flexibility, which means you can get whatever setup you want online a little earlier each day for a move action. And given that 1d6 SAD isn't that great compared to a bonus feat...