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Hey Guys,
I have recently been working on a race balance concept where I'm trying to set all of the races to 15 RP. I GM for players that really like to optimize, and I'm finding that 80% of the playable races are never used. I would like players to feel confident choosing a race with cool style or RP aspects, without feeling like they are giving up the advantages of the most powerful races.
So far I have not included all the existing racial features, so unless you are familiar with the races as they are now, this might be a lot of information to deal with at once. I tried to stick with the race creator guidelines as much as possible, but there are definitely some judgement calls in there as well. I also devised a new race, after one of my players was pestering me about playing a tiny fey.
Any feedback would be appreciated, especially from a balance point of view.
Thanks for reading!
Cheers
Playable Races
Dotting for interest.
I feel like I'm in a similar situation with setting up races for my own games - down to wanting to have a tiny flying fey race. So good luck with this!
Edit: Out of curiosity, how to you feel about the balance for your Sprite race? While I personally like the idea of having a tiny flying race - it seems like a combination that will be amazing for casters (AC + staying out of Melee reach) while being something martials will never touch (STR penalty, lower damage dice).
I haven't play tested it yet, and you are right, it seems like it will be pretty heavy caster biased, but that's kinda the point of this rework. I want every race to be useful to someone.
I think it will be important to use weather and combat maneuvers against them. A strong wind stops them and severe (Gust of Wind) blows them away. Also their CMD will be terrible at early levels. Fly and Escape Artist are almost mandatory skill sinks for this race, with the low skill points of most casting classes that is going to hurt as well.
I think at low levels people underestimate how often they attack with casters, even if its just a crossbow, and at higher levels tiny size and flying are easily achieved with a couple spells.
Keep in mind that PCs generally don't get that much power from their race. I feel like you missed the mark on these.
Some of the races seem okay. Most feel like unnecessary buffs. Others you did not follow the race creation guidelines and did weird things like give kobolds the ability to cast monstrous physique I (a powerful 3rd level spell) that somehow turns them into a dragon. Or giving races advanced tier traits. Or giving nagaji the ability to make a decent poison for free. It raises a question why every nagaji isn't rich from stockpiling and selling their own venom. And you buff merfolk, which are already a really strong race with a downside easily made irrelevant .
You shouldn't need to make a race really strong in order for them to feel satisfying to play.
Hey Cyrad,
I intended on giving a lot of them advanced traits, 15 RP is an advanced race. I stuck pretty close to the guidelines as best I could, but obviously there is a lot of disparity between the different listed powers (ie. Gnome Magic and Svirfneblin Magic are both 2 RP).
I also made some judgement calls, when i felt things were over or undervalued (Climb speed 20 with +8 is 2 RP, +2 to Climb checks is 2 RP). Personally I think skill bonuses should 1 RP per +2, but that is a discussion for another day.
You are right about the poison races, I should specify that it goes inert after 1 minute or something. The poison is mechanically the same as Vishkanya Venom (other than 1 con instead of 1d2 dex), which is standard on that race.
I am more inclined to improve old toys than take toys away so to speak, and when you have races like Tiefling and Aasimar with variable ability bonuses and SLA's and skill bonuses and resistances, I would rather see the old races competitive than start banning some content in my games.
I may have gone overboard with Kobold, but I love them and they have gotten the short end of the stick for too long, but I don't feel like it is that overpowered. The spell loses all versatility, and its giving +2 Str to a race with -4, so you get a bit of natural armor and can fly/swim for 1/min per lvl 1/day. The idea was not that they get monstrous physique, its that 1/day they can tap into their draconic heritage and transform into a dragon for a short time. Mechanically it functions as monstrous physique, in the same way they use beast shape to describe a druid's wild shape, with some exceptions.
As far as Merfolk go, I wanted players to really consider taking Strongtail, instead of that just being the default. Now they can 5 ft step and move through difficult terrain with less than a full round action, which in my opinion make them playable, not overpowered.
While PC's don't generally get much power from their race, I think that is boring. I don't want players to say "I'm going to play a Wizard, what races give me Int and Dex?" I want them to be inspired by a cool race they like and try to build a character around that.
I'm not worried about the races feeling strong, I'm worried about relative power. Are there any others you feel are too strong compared to the rest presented?
As always thanks for your feedback,
Cheers
Good to have some free playably balanced races stuff out there. ;)
Fellwynd wrote: I intended on giving a lot of them advanced traits, 15 RP is an advanced race. I stuck pretty close to the guidelines as best I could, but obviously there is a lot of disparity between the different listed powers (ie. Gnome Magic and Svirfneblin Magic are both 2 RP). The issue is that many advanced traits can be very powerful for a 1st level character to have. Races generally shouldn't have abilities that a 1st level character shouldn't have. Such as flight and 3rd level spell effects. You can make strong and fun races without resorting to this.
Fellwynd wrote: I also made some judgement calls, when i felt things were over or undervalued (Climb speed 20 with +8 is 2 RP, +2 to Climb checks is 2 RP). Personally I think skill bonuses should 1 RP per +2, but that is a discussion for another day. Usually it's the case that an ability's RP cost is too low rather than too high. If you're just going to make judgment calls, then it's better you ignore RP costs and look at each race as a complete package. This is the biggest problem I have with your house rules. You focus too much on making all the races be 15 RP and not looking at each of them as a complete package.
Fellwynd wrote: You are right about the poison races, I should specify that it goes inert after 1 minute or something. The poison is mechanically the same as Vishkanya Venom (other than 1 con instead of 1d2 dex), which is standard on that race. Con damage is waaay better than Dex damage. Even if you're dealing less of it.
Fellwynd wrote: I am more inclined to improve old toys than take toys away so to speak, and when you have races like Tiefling and Aasimar with variable ability bonuses and SLA's and skill bonuses and resistances, I would rather see the old races competitive than start banning some content in my games. Tieflings aren't that bad. Just very variable. I don't think there's anything wrong with that. It's basically like having multiple races under the same name, and that's fine for a race that's supposed to be extremely variable.
Aasimar would be fine if they had a racial penalty.
Fellwynd wrote: I may have gone overboard with Kobold, but I love them and they have gotten the short end of the stick for too long, but I don't feel like it is that overpowered. The spell loses all versatility, and its giving +2 Str to a race with -4, so you get a bit of natural armor and can fly/swim for 1/min per lvl 1/day. The idea was not that they get monstrous physique, its that 1/day they can tap into their draconic heritage and transform into a dragon for a short time. Mechanically it functions as monstrous physique, in the same way they use beast shape to describe a druid's wild shape, with some exceptions. The ability doesn't work the way you say it should. And being able to fly at 1st level is overpowered. It's a benchmark ability that's generally unavailable until 5th level. That's why fly and monstrous physique I are 3rd level spells.
Fellwynd wrote: As far as Merfolk go, I wanted players to really consider taking Strongtail, instead of that just being the default. Now they can 5 ft step and move through difficult terrain with less than a full round action, which in my opinion make them playable, not overpowered. Merfolk are a strong race because they get three racial bonuses, a +2 natural armor bonus, a swim speed, the ability to breathe underwater, and no racial penalties.
Fellwynd wrote: While PC's don't generally get much power from their race, I think that is boring. I don't want players to say "I'm going to play a Wizard, what races give me Int and Dex?" I want them to be inspired by a cool race they like and try to build a character around that. I agree that races would be much cooler if they had more interesting class features, but you can do that without giving them abilities overpowered for a 1st level character to have. See the runari as a good example. By giving things like flight and 40 movement speed, you aren't actually fixing the kind of player mentality you describe. You're just changing the question to "Okay, i'm playing a Dex fighter. Which race gives me a Dex bonus and 40 speed?"
After reading through it a bit more:
-I agree with Cyrad that you might be focusing a bit too much on making races exactly 15RP. The race builder is... flawed, and probably best used as a general guideline rather than a goal.
-Again, while I personally like the idea of a tiny flying fey race (seeing it as something that appears in multiple fantasy works) the ability to fly is very powerful, especially at level 1 without requiring an action. I would disagree with you improving the fly maneuverability of Sprites to average (seemingly at the cost of fly speed) as making the checks to hover/avoid falling when attacked is far more important for something like a caster. Leaving the maneuverability at clumsy (or poor at best) would be far better balanced in my opinion - as the race would need several levels + investment in the fly skill before they could reliably pull off checks which let them stay completely out of melee range in combat.
-I'm a bit sceptical about giving races a 40ft base move speed.
-I really like the idea of limited fast healing for the elemental planetouched races. Doesn't seem too powerful, but makes them feel more connected to their element. That said, I think Resistance 5 is already powerful enough without needing to increase it to Resistance 10.
Fellwynd wrote: I am more inclined to improve old toys than take toys away so to speak, and when you have races like Tiefling and Aasimar with variable ability bonuses and SLA's and skill bonuses and resistances, I would rather see the old races competitive than start banning some content in my games. Regarding the variable ability bonuses Aasimar/Tieflings have, I wonder if it may be a good option to give similar options to other races as a way to make them more appealing to players. For example, having alternate racial heritages for a Changeling's Hag heritage or for Wood Elves, High Elves, etc. After all, I find that a big reason I see so many Aasimar/Tieflings is because of how easy it is to have a good stat array for a variety of classes when you have the option to pick a heritage.
Cyrad wrote: Usually it's the case that an ability's RP cost is too low rather than too high. If you're just going to make judgment calls, then it's better you ignore RP costs and look at each race as a complete package. This is the biggest problem I have with your house rules. You focus too much on making all the races be 15 RP and not looking at each of them as a complete package. I agree, many of the racial abilities available are priced too low, but I needed to have some point of reference to work from. I tried to keep the powers thematically relevant, and consistent with my view of the race. Other than the Kobold's dragon form, every racial feature is available already on one race or another. Are there any specific abilities that you feel do not fit with these races?
Cyrad wrote: Con damage is waaay better than Dex damage. Even if you're dealing less of it. Con is better than Dex, but not by much in my opinion. A small amount of damage and Fort save debuff vs AC, Init, Ref, many skills and potentially attack and damage. In general I'm just not worried about poison damage coming from players. Anything you actually want to poison is going to have a solid Fort save, and low HD enemies will die in a couple hits anyway. Players are not typically trying to scale their Con like they would with Str or a casting stat, so the save DC is going to fall off as well.
Cyrad wrote: Tieflings aren't that bad. Just very variable. I don't think there's anything wrong with that. It's basically like having multiple races under the same name, and that's fine for a race that's supposed to be extremely variable.
Aasimar would be fine if they had a racial penalty.
I agree Tieflings are in a good place, I just think the tail is cool, and should have been standard form the beginning. Aasimar are very strong in my opinion, and are kind of the benchmark in this system.
Cyrad wrote: The ability doesn't work the way you say it should. And being able to fly at 1st level is overpowered. It's a benchmark ability that's generally unavailable until 5th level. That's why fly and monstrous physique I are 3rd level spells. What do you mean it doesn't work the way I say it should? I agree continuous flying should not be available at level 1, but Paizo thinks otherwise, there are already 2 races with flight, and adding a bit a variety in the races that can fly was one of my goals with this update. If a player really wants to fly all the time they can, and with much less interesting characters than my version of Kobold.
Cyrad wrote: Merfolk are a strong race because they get three racial bonuses, a +2 natural armor bonus, a swim speed, the ability to breathe underwater, and no racial penalties. I think 5ft base speed is a pretty big penalty. They cannot move without provoking on land, and difficult terrain is a full round action. In the water they are exactly the same as they were before. Do you feel that Merfolk were too strong to begin with?
Cyrad wrote: I agree that races would be much cooler if they had more interesting class features, but you can do that without giving them abilities overpowered for a 1st level character to have. See the runari as a good example. By giving things like flight and 40 movement speed, you aren't actually fixing the kind of player mentality you describe. You're just changing the question to "Okay, i'm playing a Dex fighter. Which race gives me a Dex bonus and 40 speed?" The answer to that is Elf, Drow, and Catfolk. Now you have an option to style your character depending on which mental stat is important to you and which dump stat you would prefer, instead of just playing a human for the feat if all you want is Dex. This is exactly the point of my work, making multiple races viable for any given build depending on player preference, not having a top tier of 6-10 races, while they other 30 get ignored.
Please keep responding, I respect your opinion and your thoughts are very helpful. Feel free to get specific about individual races and abilities you don't like as well, I'm planning to use this in my next game, and the more polish the better.
Thanks again,
Cheers
I'm confused by your intent. If your players are using only 20% of the playable races, why not re-evaluate those 20% instead of trying to fix the other 80%? It is my opinion that some of the non-core races are so popular because their strengths are too easily exploited.
I don't want to address every race you worked on, but here's a small piece. For half-elf, focused study and envoy fit the description of the class, though I don't see them as neccessary. Quick reactions is certainly helpful, but it doesn't fit the description of their race and neither of the parent races get it. While envoy bolsters the magical nature of an elf, the "envoy" aspect is not present in their description and it I feel it detracts from the half-elf's aspect of moving between cultures. Elves are typically seen as insular compared to half-elves. You give humans a big boost to the linguistics skill, but I think that would be better suited for the half-elf.
Ciaran Barnes wrote: I'm confused by your intent. If your players are using only 20% of the playable races, why not re-evaluate those 20% instead of trying to fix the other 80%? It is my opinion that some of the non-core races are so popular because their strengths are too easily exploited. This is personal preference, though i see your point. I would rather bring low power races up than reduce they power of the popular races. Even if i reduced the power of the popular races, it does not address the issue that so many of the other races are much weaker by comparison. Take a look at goblin, kobold, and gillmen, just to name a few. Their original features are very weak compared to even the base races.
Ciaran Barnes wrote: I don't want to address every race you worked on, but here's a small piece. For half-elf, focused study and envoy fit the description of the class, though I don't see them as neccessary. Quick reactions is certainly helpful, but it doesn't fit the description of their race and neither of the parent races get it. While envoy bolsters the magical nature of an elf, the "envoy" aspect is not present in their description and it I feel it detracts from the half-elf's aspect of moving between cultures. Elves are typically seen as insular compared to half-elves. You give humans a big boost to the linguistics skill, but I think that would be better suited for the half-elf. My thinking there was Human get the flexible feat, and elves gain the movement speed, so Improved Initiative was kind of a mid way feature. I'm not super happy with envoy for Elves, I agree it fits the concept for Half-elves much better, but then I thought if humans and elves don't get a SLA, where do Half-elves get it?
Ciaran Barnes wrote: I'm a bit sceptical about giving races a 40ft base move speed. I like disparity between races speeds, its fun for RP, and i think an Elf should beat a Human who should beat a Dwarf in a footrace. When I look at Barbarians in games I have run, I have never felt that the increased movement speed was anything too strong. However, I think 1 RP is too low for this ability, I think I will make it 2, remove envoy, and adjust drow and catfolk as well.
Thanks for the input guys.
Cheers
Touching on some of your other points Charon:
Charon Onozuka wrote: I agree with Cyrad that you might be focusing a bit too much on making races exactly 15RP. The race builder is... flawed, and probably best used as a general guideline rather than a goal. I agree that its flawed, and I tried not to stick to it precisely, but rather look at a weak race, add what I wanted and then adjust so they point values lined up. I think having a baseline and a system you can reference, however flawed, helps to keep things balanced when you are overhauling this many features.
Charon Onozuka wrote: Again, while I personally like the idea of a tiny flying fey race (seeing it as something that appears in multiple fantasy works) the ability to fly is very powerful, especially at level 1 without requiring an action. I would disagree with you improving the fly maneuverability of Sprites to average (seemingly at the cost of fly speed) as making the checks to hover/avoid falling when attacked is far more important for something like a caster. Leaving the maneuverability at clumsy (or poor at best) would be far better balanced in my opinion - as the race would need several levels + investment in the fly skill before they could reliably pull off checks which let them stay completely out of melee range in combat. After reviewing the Fly skill and the race, I'm inclined to agree. I have reduced the maneuverability one step and removed the Int penalty to keep them at 15 RP.
Charon Onozuka wrote: Regarding the variable ability bonuses Aasimar/Tieflings have, I wonder if it may be a good option to give similar options to other races as a way to make them more appealing to players. For example, having alternate racial heritages for a Changeling's Hag heritage or for Wood Elves, High Elves, etc. After all, I find that a big reason I see so many Aasimar/Tieflings is because of how easy it is to have a good stat array for a variety of classes when you have the option to pick a heritage. This would be great, but would also be a ton of work. Many of the heritages for these races only share the fact that they are outsiders and have elemental resistances. All the other race features are totally changed. Another reason you see them is due to the lack of weaknesses. They get good ability bonuses, resistances, a SLA, skills, Darkvision, and they are immune to humanoid only effects. Combined with being able to cherry pick your ability bonus makes them very attractive to a wide variety of classes and builds.
Charon Onozuka wrote: I really like the idea of limited fast healing for the elemental planetouched races. Doesn't seem too powerful, but makes them feel more connected to their element. That said, I think Resistance 5 is already powerful enough without needing to increase it to Resistance 10. I like that feature too, its an optional trait for all of them but I think its great. I think resist 5 is too weak for a planetouched race. They can shoot fire from their hands and make weapons burst into flame, in my opinion it should take more than a good roll on a d6 to affect them with fire damage.
Thanks for the input, I really appreciate it.
Cheers
Which races have fly speeds? You realize not all races have been designed equal, right? Just because you find an obscure race in a bestiary doesn't mean Paizo intended for it to be as balanced as a core race.
sorta scratching my head at buffs to humans, arguably one of the best races in the game within normal price ranges, and then nerfs to the comparably mediocre sulis. etc.
Cyrad wrote: Which races have fly speeds? You realize not all races have been designed equal, right? Just because you find an obscure race in a bestiary doesn't mean Paizo intended for it to be as balanced as a core race. I'm looking at the SRD, Strix and Wyvaran both have fly speeds. Strix are from the Advanced Race Guide and Wyvaran are from Bestiery 4. They are both intended as advanced races. The whole point of this is that Paizo did not intend for the available races to be balanced, and I want more balanced options for players in my games.
swoosh wrote: sorta scratching my head at buffs to humans, arguably one of the best races in the game within normal price ranges, and then nerfs to the comparably mediocre sulis. etc. I don't think Suli is a weak race at all. Resistance to every element and selectable bonus damage type are both very strong racial features. Combined with immunity to humanoid only effects, some skill bonuses and a Str bonus, Suli looks like a very playable race to me. Also removing Low-light Vision from a race that has Darkvision is a pretty negligible nerf.
As far as humans go, they still have the least interesting racial features of any race in my opinion. You play a human when you are desperate for a bonus feat, or you are planning some Racial Heritage shenanigans, but otherwise you can find better combinations for almost any class by picking a race that gives you the ability adjustments you want along with relevant skill bonuses or unique abilities.
Is there a particular combo or build you think would be broken with Humans in my system?
Thanks for the input guys!
Fellwynd wrote: Cyrad wrote: Which races have fly speeds? You realize not all races have been designed equal, right? Just because you find an obscure race in a bestiary doesn't mean Paizo intended for it to be as balanced as a core race. I'm looking at the SRD, Strix and Wyvaran both have fly speeds. Strix are from the Advanced Race Guide and Wyvaran are from Bestiery 4. They are both intended as advanced races. The whole point of this is that Paizo did not intend for the available races to be balanced, and I want more balanced options for players in my games. Your argument was that at-will flight for races is not overpowered because the Strix and the Wyveran has it. Now you're saying that's fine because Paizo intended for those races to be overpowered?
If you're looking to create balanced options, then making all the races as strong as the strix or the wyveran doesn't sound like a good idea. Even if you somehow manage to make all races have equal power, this would make really powerful low level PCs, which goes beyond what you're trying to accomplish since you're merely trying to make races feel meaning at all levels -- not significantly increase power at low levels when races already feel really meaningful. It's one of the several reasons why your houserules won't really accomplish what you're trying to do.
On the subject of fly speed and not all options being weighed equally, a climb speed is broken compared to the number of RP spent to get it. You can spend on 2 RP on a +2 to the Climb skill, or you can spend 2 RP on a 20 ft climb speed (which includes a +8 bonus to Climb checks and other benefits. Flight is considerably more powerful, especially at low level.
Cyrad wrote: Your argument was that at-will flight for races is not overpowered because the Strix and the Wyveran has it. Now you're saying that's fine because Paizo intended for those races to be overpowered? My argument was that we live in a world where Paizo has given characters the option to play a race that can fly at level 1. I agree its not balanced or reasonable, but it is what it is. Adding another option for flying characters or giving Kobolds limited flight is not breaking anything, its just adding some diversity to an existing system.
Cyrad wrote: If you're looking to create balanced options, then making all the races as strong as the strix or the wyveran doesn't sound like a good idea. Even if you somehow manage to make all races have equal power, this would make really powerful low level PCs, which goes beyond what you're trying to accomplish since you're merely trying to make races feel meaning at all levels -- not significantly increase power at low levels when races already feel really meaningful. It's one of the several reasons why your houserules won't really accomplish what you're trying to do. It's pretty much impossible to have balance in a system like this, where class and build factor so heavily into a race's actual power. Power hungry players will always find a way to abuse a system, if that is their goal. That's where GMing well comes into play, if only one player can fly all the time, as the GM you can bet I am going to be very aware of the wind strength and direction at all times, and put in plenty of encounters in enclosed spaces.
Adding power to the races is exactly what I'm trying to accomplish, at level 10 I want there to be meaningful differences between an Elf Ranger, a Human Ranger, and a Dwarf Ranger. I want race to be an important part of your characters identity, not just the place you got +2 to your stat of choice.
The low level PC's will only be overpowered compared to existing ones, everyone they encounter in the world will be using the same races, and have the same advantages.
I think I need to do a better job of explaining my purpose with this homebrew. I'm not trying to make the racial abilities long lasting or frontload PC's power at early levels. The idea is to create options that are attractive to players, to get some diversity in my games.
Just out of curiosity, what do you guys think are the 3 most broken races in this system? (Bonus points if you tell me why)
Cheers!
Fellwynd wrote: Cyrad wrote: Your argument was that at-will flight for races is not overpowered because the Strix and the Wyveran has it. Now you're saying that's fine because Paizo intended for those races to be overpowered? My argument was that we live in a world where Paizo has given characters the option to play a race that can fly at level 1. I agree its not balanced or reasonable, but it is what it is. Adding another option for flying characters or giving Kobolds limited flight is not breaking anything, its just adding some diversity to an existing system. But as I pointed out, your argument that it's "okay" to give at-will flight to a race because "Paizo did it" is completely undermined by the fact that Paizo never intended those races to play alongside standard races.
Flight is a powerful ability. The game deliberately makes it unavailable until 5th level for a reason and published adventures design encounters assuming flight isn't available until then. And high level combat becomes dominated by whether or not any given PC can fly. While you're the GM, saying giving flight early won't significantly affect anything is completely untrue.
Fellwynd wrote: Cyrad wrote: If you're looking to create balanced options, then making all the races as strong as the strix or the wyveran doesn't sound like a good idea. Even if you somehow manage to make all races have equal power, this would make really powerful low level PCs, which goes beyond what you're trying to accomplish since you're merely trying to make races feel meaning at all levels -- not significantly increase power at low levels when races already feel really meaningful. It's one of the several reasons why your houserules won't really accomplish what you're trying to do. It's pretty much impossible to have balance in a system like this, where class and build factor so heavily into a race's actual power. Power hungry players will always find a way to abuse a system, if that is their goal. That's where GMing well comes into play, if only one player can fly all the time, as the GM you can bet I am going to be very aware of the wind strength and direction at all times, and put in plenty of encounters in enclosed spaces.
Adding power to the races is exactly what I'm trying to accomplish, at level 10 I want there to be meaningful differences between an Elf Ranger, a Human Ranger, and a Dwarf Ranger. I want race to be an important part of your characters identity, not just the place you got +2 to your stat of choice.
As I explained already, you can make cool races with interesting abilities without resorting to giving them racial traits that would be overpowered for a 1st level character to have. I designed several races with unique and flavorful abilities, and yet could play alongside any core race.
Fellwynd wrote: The low level PC's will only be overpowered compared to existing ones, everyone they encounter in the world will be using the same races, and have the same advantages. This isn't a PvP game. It's a fallacy to say an ability is balanced for a PC because the bad guys have it, too.
Fellwynd wrote: I think I need to do a better job of explaining my purpose with this homebrew. I'm not trying to make the racial abilities long lasting or frontload PC's power at early levels. The idea is to create options that are attractive to players, to get some diversity in my games. If you really want to tweak all the races to add diversity, you should design them from the ground up as a whole package rather than just haphazardly patch them with unnecessary buffs that don't make much sense.
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