|
So, I shortly played an empiricist investigator and had a blast doing so. Normally I do melee characters or a couple times I've done melee/ranged characters with pets. I know magic is where all the power is, but that's never appealed to me as much.
Anyways. I really want to make an investigator for PFS now that I've had a couple of chances to play one (just played through the first book of Hell's Rebels). I had a ton of fun with it. Anyways, I want to be effective at combat, but I don't want it to cost me too much investigator progression.
The obvious choice is taking a level of Inspired Blade Swashbuckler and using a rapier, plus taking a fencing grace. That will let me use my melee abilities (studied combat/strike). Another interesting option I thought of was to take a level of witch and get the hair hex (int to hit and int to damage)...but that would only be good for one minute per day without taking more witch levels--which I don't really want to do.
A different option would be to use my exceptional UMD and find something magical to do that would aid me. Or finding a way to make studied combat/strike work with ranged attacks.
I want to be the best skill monkey I can be. To that end, this is what I've got planned so far.
Wayang - ability scores (including racials) (20 pt buy)
Str - 7
Dex - 16
Con - 14
Int - 20
Wis - 11
Cha - 5
Obviously I know this is a bit munchkin-y and I've got things to worry about (mummies and shadows), but those are risks I'm willing to take. I really just want to excel out of combat and be able to contribute in combat.
For one trait I'm obviously taking Student of Philosophy.
I also plan on spending 5 prestige to get the wayfinder that lets me cast Detect Magic at will instead of light (to be able to make use of my Knowledge: Arcana and Spellcraft.
First level feat will be Ovoid Compression (+2 to int checks, -1 to cha/wis checks (yes, I know this will apply to Will saves)).
The first talent I'll be taking is Expanded Inspiration (extra skills get free inspiration). Level three talent will probably be Extra Investigator Talent to take Underworld Inspiration.
Anyways.. the biggest question is if there's something competent I can do in combat without dipping into other classes. (also thoughts on a second trait would be good)
|
If you're going for a Dex build I suspect you're going to need some way to get Dex to damage if you want them to stay viable in combat and remain a threat. This pretty much means finding somewhere to fit Slashing Grace or Fencing Grace into your build, but then you're also looking at Weapon Finesse, etc.
A Str build can just grab a long spear, stay Investigator and go to town, for Dex I think that the Swashbuckler dip you mention is the best bet. Even from low levels you're going to be knocking Skill checks out of the park, I think it's more than doable to take a single level of Swashbuckler for everything it gives you, that and one feat (Fencing Grace) sets you up for both damage and defences very nicely, Combat Reflexes certainly won't hurt at later levels.
Other than that I think you might want to look at ranged options if you're definitely going Dex and really don't want to dip, there's not a lot else you can do that won't likely involve a lot more than a one level dip. I suppose you could possibly use the extra trait to pick up skill in an Elven Branched Spear that you can enchant with Agile later on, but you'll still need Weapon Finesse to make much use of it.
I'm really not a fan of dipping Inspired blade. Sure if you are happy with doing 1d6+8 or so at level 5 on a single hit go ahead, but as a dedicated martial player you will feel sooo weak.
So why not dip Steelblood bloodrager. Dump that dex. Get a bit less INT and be a heavy metal investigator and split s@$* with a Greatsword or Glaive like in the good old days? Or be a Tengu and Claw, Claw, Bite the foes of the society, that actually works quite well for a single class investigator.
Also where is Ovoid Compression from?
Also check out Clear Ear. Some Alchemy thing smart people like...
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
so please explain what you need an int of 20, cause I'd say swap the dex and the int. Making yourself good at combat will always feel good.
What you gain from dex: +2 to attack rolls and damage assuming dex to damage.
what you gain from int: +2 to skills and 2 usually wasted rounds of studied combat, 2 inspiration, and 1 extra lv1 extract.
|
|
I'm really not a fan of dipping Inspired blade. Sure if you are happy with doing 1d6+8 or so at level 5 on a single hit go ahead, but as a dedicated martial player you will feel sooo weak.
You're quite right that each individual hit won't be big, but that's not the the Swashigators shtick. Combat Reflexes, Longarm elixir, possible a Swashbucklers Flair for +5ft reach... suddenly you threaten a 15ft area and probably have 5-6 AoOs at least. That very quickly adds up to some pretty significant damage (and incidentally helps keep you safer from most enemies). This especially shines in the relatively cramped conditions that a lot of PFS scenarios take place in and just dungeons in general. Spell casters? AoO unless they cast defensively, Ranged attackers? AoO. Enemy wants to move more than 5ft? AoO. Etc.
Fair warning, if you go balls deep on being a skill monger Empiricist Investigator you'll trivialize basic skill checks the same way a fully cheesed god wizard trivializes combat encounters. Anything that you're at risk of failing will quickly be a DC higher than the rest of the party can reliably keep up with.
This is coming from level 1 to 17 experience so far.
|
|
I'm going to throw some ideas at the wall non are optimal but they any help.
You can polymorphic in to small creatures and get an agile amulet of mighty fist. Alter self, monstrous physique etc.
Aid another monkey. Effortless aid, trait to boost aid another, body guard, Ring of Tactical Precision to give out Harrying Partners (big feat investment for little return).
Take infusion and hand out goodies. A couple of "potions of shield" go along way.
If by be an investigator you mean be good at skill, with your int you can multiclass all you want. All you lose is a couple of skill points by multiclassing into a 4+ skill points per level class. Losing alchemy is the larger loss.
Focusing on a physical stat more will help a lot but dex builds even with a dip get going very slowly.
Single level dips for dex:
-Inspired blade
-Urban ID rager blood rager (hatred). Weapon finesse, dex rage, wand use, furious weapon property, free skill focus
Dips for Strength:
Steelblooded (OptioalID Rager(anger)).
Barbarian chained or otherwise.
Fighter for feats (never a great choice as you will get the same build in 2 levels but you give up more than you get, usually)
|
|
so please explain what you need an int of 20, cause I'd say swap the dex and the int. Making yourself good at combat will always feel good.
What you gain from dex: +2 to attack rolls and damage assuming dex to damage.
what you gain from int: +2 to skills and 2 usually wasted rounds of studied combat, 2 inspiration, and 1 extra lv1 extract.
Yeah, for this character (where every other character I have excels at martial combat) those "gains from int" are for more desirable, you forgot one of the most important, 2 more skills per hd, as well.
I'm really not a fan of dipping Inspired blade. Sure if you are happy with doing 1d6+8 or so at level 5 on a single hit go ahead, but as a dedicated martial player you will feel sooo weak.
Also where is Ovoid Compression from?
Also check out Clear Ear. Some Alchemy thing smart people like...
That's how I feel about inspired blade, too. Sure, I can dip it and then use dex for combat, but while others are excelling at combat, even my participation will quickly feel useless.
Sorry, the feat is actually called Elongated Cranium and that's one of the options you choose from when you take the feat (from Occult Adventures).
Hm, here's another thought. I could take a level of something that gives me Weapon Focus and take Ranged Study. I like warpriests, but at level 1 they're nothing special. I could get some interesting blessings (Nobility, +2 to skill checks, or Luck, roll twice and take the better--Magdh from the new Realm of the Fey book gives luck and her Obedience is pretty awesome (though nerfed for PFS)).
Another option to get weapon focus with a ranged weapon, oddly enough, is a Kensai Magus. There's nothing that says the feat has to be taken with a weapon that spell combat/ spell strike can be used with. Both would get me level 0 spells, though with the warpriest I could still wear armor if I wanted to.
You dip inspired blade because studied combat applies to Opportunistic parry and riposte and it gives you a 3 feat combat style in one level, in fact as a human you can go combat reflexes/fencing grace/finesse/focus at level one and even be ready to exploit parry and riposte. It also minimizes the MAD nature of being a mostly buff based skill focused character that only has light armor, letting you basically be dex/int/con. The minute you get your hand on an inspired rapier and get combat inspiration you become pretty terrifying.
when you have 9 skill points a level is 11 really needed? how many skills do you need and are planning to have maxed?
With 1 rank into a knowledge you have 1+3 +3/4 with headband +2 heightened awareness +2 from heroism +1d6 your min bonus is +12/13.
but if you're not going to build for combat then you might as well really not build for combat. The difference between bad and useless isn't that big, just like difference between great at skills and a little more great isn't that big. But because the possibility of good at combat and great at skills is possible I really suggest it.
If building an INT-stacked character, an Elven Investigator could always use Elven Battle Focus.
You dip inspired blade because studied combat applies to Opportunistic parry and riposte and it gives you a 3 feat combat style in one level, in fact as a human you can go combat reflexes/fencing grace/finesse/focus at level one and even be ready to exploit parry and riposte. It also minimizes the MAD nature of being a mostly buff based skill focused character that only has light armor, letting you basically be dex/int/con. The minute you get your hand on an inspired rapier and get combat inspiration you become pretty terrifying.
All this sounds nifty but compared to a dedicated martial your individual hits are puny. Even with 20 starting dex you are gonna be dealing what 1d6+12 at level 6 and at level 10 you maybe add +5 to that number?
Intelligent foes simply won't attack you because your attacks are dealing a fraction of what a real front liner is dealing.
I admit that Combat Reflexes + Reach does accomplish something but requires your team to use sound tactics and as this is for PFS I wouldn't rely on it.
All this sounds nifty but compared to a dedicated martial your individual hits are puny. Even with 20 starting dex you are gonna be dealing what 1d6+12 at level 6 and at level 10 you maybe add +5 to that number?
I wouldn't call ~20 damage 'puny'. A typical martial is probably doing ~30 with a comparable weapon, and they're pulling maybe 3 hits/round if they can full attack, or 1 otherwise. Doing ~20 and working AoO's plus 3 attacks isn't that different overall. Swift Study can add a few d6's as well, which brings a single hit per round right up there.
You dip inspired blade because studied combat applies to Opportunistic parry and riposte and it gives you a 3 feat combat style in one level, in fact as a human you can go combat reflexes/fencing grace/finesse/focus at level one and even be ready to exploit parry and riposte. It also minimizes the MAD nature of being a mostly buff based skill focused character that only has light armor, letting you basically be dex/int/con. The minute you get your hand on an inspired rapier and get combat inspiration you become pretty terrifying.All this sounds nifty but compared to a dedicated martial your individual hits are puny. Even with 20 starting dex you are gonna be dealing what 1d6+12 at level 6 and at level 10 you maybe add +5 to that number?
Intelligent foes simply won't attack you because your attacks are dealing a fraction of what a real front liner is dealing.
I admit that Combat Reflexes + Reach does accomplish something but requires your team to use sound tactics and as this is for PFS I wouldn't rely on it.
Ugh, ok 1 inspired blade/9 investigator
1d6 + 6-8 dex +5 (answering) +4 studied combat +4 power attack + 1d8X2 inspired weapon So..+22 to +37 damage
+7 bab +5 answering +4 studied combat +1 wf -2 power attack +6-8 dex is +21 to 23 to hit.
So, on a riposte its a +22 to hit d6+21 damage on the low end. Plus sickened.
On a normal attack its +21/+16 for d6+17 damage.
this is not "a fraction" of a front liners damage This is actually pretty respectable damage. It also doesn't include much in the way of prebuffing outside of mutagen, and in 3 levels your inspiration die becomes 2d8 keep the highest.
Edit: it also is calculated as though your inspiration die rolled a 1. The minute you roll a 7 or 8 these numbers blow up.
the moment you decide you're not using two hands for your weapon is when your potential for large damage is gone.
lv7 barb is doing around +15/+10 for 2d6+19 with power attack, DPR against CR 7 with AC 20 is ~35. CR 9 with AC 23 is ~27
A high dex is looking at +20 for 1d6+12 with mutagen and heroism running, DPR is ~15 and ~14, you're very likely to hit every attack and confirm every crit.
So yes, you're not a 2 handed weapon user damage, but you're doing good combat as a "off-damage" dealer. 15 damage a round is enough to be useful, doing 40% - 50% that of a main damage dealer when you aren't a main damage dealer.
str using THW starting with 18 str at lv7 is doing
+16 for 1d8+20 ~21 and ~17 DPR. As good as the barb but with only one swing.
All this sounds nifty but compared to a dedicated martial your individual hits are puny. Even with 20 starting dex you are gonna be dealing what 1d6+12 at level 6 and at level 10 you maybe add +5 to that number?I wouldn't call ~20 damage 'puny'. A typical martial is probably doing ~30 with a comparable weapon, and they're pulling maybe 3 hits/round if they can full attack, or 1 otherwise. Doing ~20 and working AoO's plus 3 attacks isn't that different overall. Swift Study can add a few d6's as well, which brings a single hit per round right up there.
Agreed I might have been exaggerating for the level 6 example. Especially since you will be critting often.
But claiming that you will be getting 3 AoO on an average combat round is equally exaggerating. And in my experience opportune parry and riposte is triggered far less often than one might hope.
At level 10 assuming a +1 Answering Inspired Rapier you will also have issues penetrating pretty much all common types of DR.
All this sounds nifty but compared to a dedicated martial your individual hits are puny. Even with 20 starting dex you are gonna be dealing what 1d6+12 at level 6 and at level 10 you maybe add +5 to that number?I wouldn't call ~20 damage 'puny'. A typical martial is probably doing ~30 with a comparable weapon, and they're pulling maybe 3 hits/round if they can full attack, or 1 otherwise. Doing ~20 and working AoO's plus 3 attacks isn't that different overall. Swift Study can add a few d6's as well, which brings a single hit per round right up there.Agreed I might have been exaggerating for the level 6 example. Especially since you will be critting often.
But claiming that you will be getting 3 AoO on an average combat round is equally exaggerating. And in my experience opportune parry and riposte is triggered far less often than one might hope.
At level 10 assuming a +1 Answering Inspired Rapier you will also have issues penetrating pretty much all common types of DR.
Its +5 on the riposte, also, weapon blanch, you're an alchemist too.
All this sounds nifty but compared to a dedicated martial your individual hits are puny. Even with 20 starting dex you are gonna be dealing what 1d6+12 at level 6 and at level 10 you maybe add +5 to that number?I wouldn't call ~20 damage 'puny'. A typical martial is probably doing ~30 with a comparable weapon, and they're pulling maybe 3 hits/round if they can full attack, or 1 otherwise. Doing ~20 and working AoO's plus 3 attacks isn't that different overall. Swift Study can add a few d6's as well, which brings a single hit per round right up there.Agreed I might have been exaggerating for the level 6 example. Especially since you will be critting often.
But claiming that you will be getting 3 AoO on an average combat round is equally exaggerating. And in my experience opportune parry and riposte is triggered far less often than one might hope.
At level 10 assuming a +1 Answering Inspired Rapier you will also have issues penetrating pretty much all common types of DR.
I didn't say they'd be working 3 AoO's, I said "working AoO's plus 3 attacks"; in other words, what the martial is getting plus a variable number of AoO's. I don't think going straight for an Answering, Inspired rapier is a very good idea at all. Personally, at 10, I'd probably be looking at something like a +3 Fortuitous... and some Deliquescent Gloves.
Its +5 on the riposte, also, weapon blanch, you're an alchemist too.
While you are waiting on the time to strike big bad is munching on my Barbarian because he's much tastier.
Weapon Blanche cost you a round a +2 Furious Weapon is 16k.
What about DR/slashing and bludgeoning?
I know that the Inspired Empiricist is a good build, but it's not all that it's hyped up to be either...
Its +5 on the riposte, also, weapon blanch, you're an alchemist too.While you are waiting on the time to strike big bad is munching on my Barbarian because he's much tastier.
Weapon Blanche cost you a round a +2 Furious Weapon is 16k.
What about DR/slashing and bludgeoning?
I know that the Inspired Empiricist is a good build, but it's not all that it's hyped up to be either...
I never claimed it was the be all of front line fighters, but it pulls its weight in combat and trivializes most skill checks.
As for dr slashing/bludgeoning, id probably either content myself with doing a little less damage if they were weaker monsters, or either
Touch injection/skinsend
Vomit swarm
Adhesive spittle
Monstrous physique the martial.
Its +5 on the riposte, also, weapon blanch, you're an alchemist too.While you are waiting on the time to strike big bad is munching on my Barbarian because he's much tastier.
Weapon Blanche cost you a round a +2 Furious Weapon is 16k.
What about DR/slashing and bludgeoning?
I know that the Inspired Empiricist is a good build, but it's not all that it's hyped up to be either...
The only thing that will match a martial class in combat is another martial class. So using your barbarian as a metric is not really fair. Are you holding yourself to the same standard? How to you equal the investigators out of combat and utility?
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I was merely arguing that one could easily dip a level of Barbarian or Bloodrager for an Investigator. In regards to offense that actually comes pretty close to a full barbarian in the PFS level range.
But whenever the issue of Investigator comes up everyone's always: all you need is DEX and INT and you can kick butt like super man. But that's just not true because your limiting yourself to the suckiest combat style on earth: One handed DEX based. Inspired Weapon and Combat Inspiration are also quite swell but for PFS you are pretty much approaching the end of your career once you get there.
I do admit to getting carried away in the process though...
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Feh, dex-based is "obvious" but that doesn't mean it's actually the best choice.
I guess turning into a large half-sultry-woman-half-dragon monstrosity with a longspear, wings, claws, bite and all that just isn't how people envision their "Sherlock" character. But it works very well.
|
|
Strength based class dips can work really well for Investigators, hell so can just going Strength + Longspear... but claudekennilols character is a Wayang with 7 Strength, those options aren't useful to him right now.
From having played an Inspired Blade Empiricist in PFS I will say that I have had no trouble getting at least 1-2 AoOs most rounds, you can always voluntarily provoke/parry/murder at low levels if you really want that extra attack when you're not losing iterative attacks to do so.
Any dip is going to cost resources that could be spent elsewhere, overall the Inspired Blade costs imo the least for the most return. But if that's not ideal then definitely give the newly minted Ravenor Inquisitor a look, Inquisitors make great archers regardless but if you go Wood and pick up Wood Bond as one of your two Revelations you already have a leg up and should easily be able to afford the hit penalty for Deadly Aim to boost your damage.
|
|
Take Care of DR
For dex based investigators Weapon Versatility is key. No you never have to worry about DR.
Damage can be increased and most DR overcome by buying Bane Baldric for 5 rounds of bane.
Add Debuffing to your Combat
Gloves of marking with sickening strike help you contribute as you debuff decently.
Dex build falls strongly in the category of secondary damage dealer but you have great support abilities and amazing defences.
Power Attack is Still Valuable
It is also worth noting that at dex build should have enough strength to power attack even one handed the investigator has the accuracy to spare. Weapon focus, mutagen, heroism, study, reduce person (for medium dex investigators). Gets you north of 90% to hit quite often. You will still be behind the barbarian but you will do fine.
I have never liked dipping.
As far as combat-type investigator archetypes go, my favorite is Lamplighter. The Initiative boosts they can get can make a GM apoplectic!
|
|
Ok. I got my hands on a Dhampir boon and will be rethinking my character. As much as I love wayang, I'm going to try to do this as a str/int based character and the wayang just didn't have the stats for it. So going with the ru-shi bloodline that gives me +2 str/int and -2 dex.
I still want a high int, but with Elongated Cranium, starting with 20 is a lot less necessary--I didn't know about this feat when I was playing around with a lvl 4 investigator and was still constantly getting 30s on skill checks. But this is still primarily a skill-based character so I'll be starting with an 18.
Str - 16 (14 + 2)
Dex - 10 (12 - 2)
Con - 14
Int - 18 (16 + 2)
Wis - 12
Cha - 7
The dex will hurt my AC, but I have extracts / UMD that can make up for that and some magic armor can definitely help.
lvl 1 feat is still Elongated Cranium (ovoid compression)
lvl 3 feat is still Fey Obedience
After that I haven't made any decisions. Level 5 may have to be Life-Dominant Soul, but I'll see how levels 3-4 go first (this character will be starting at lvl 3).
I'd still like to see a way to make dex worked, but I don't see a way to do it before level 4 (2nd level spells extracts) without dipping.
Wasn't fey obedience nerfed badly for PFS purposes?
Page 28—When you perform Magdh's obedience, select three Intelligence-based skills. You gain a +4 bonus on those skill checks for 24 hours or until you perform this obedience again.
Irori's Obedience which grants +4 to all Knowledge Skills is prolly better.
I still can't really wrap my head around ovoid compression, just seems like too much investment to be super super stellar at something you're already super stellar at. Also I've been playing PFS with some high level inquisitors recently and they kind o spoil the fun as no one else ever has to roll skill check any more.
|
|
Wasn't fey obedience nerfed badly for PFS purposes?
Page 28—When you perform Magdh's obedience, select three Intelligence-based skills. You gain a +4 bonus on those skill checks for 24 hours or until you perform this obedience again.
Irori's Obedience which grants +4 to all Knowledge Skills is prolly better.
I still can't really wrap my head around ovoid compression, just seems like too much investment to be super super stellar at something you're already super stellar at. Also I've been playing PFS with some high level inquisitors recently and they kind o spoil the fun as no one else ever has to roll skill check any more.
"Nerfed badly" is very subjective. As it was, especially for an empiricist, it was basically a no-brainer -- +4 to 20 skills is simply broken (20 skills assuming Student of Philosophy trait as well). While Irori may make more skills higher (10 knowledges), +4 to three int-based skills of my choice each day is more desirable (at least to me). For example, Spellcraft, Perception, and Use Magic Device will probably be my go-to-skills for this. So while yes, it was "nerfed badly" it's still really, really good.
Ovoid compression--+2 to 20 skills and -1 to 4 skills, only 1 of which I'd ever even need to possibly use, doesn't seem like too much of an investment cost.
I also realized that this guy will be starting at level 4 (and will actually probably be level 5 by the time I get to play him), so I could still stick with my original plan and rely on alter self/monstrous physique and an agile amulet of mighty fists (fifth level feat would then have to be weapon finesse).
|
|
I have a level 10 Emp Investigator that has higher accuracy than anyone else in the party and damage that is only slightly behind... and the high crit rate feels like it makes up for that... of course that only lasts as long as the inspiration points do. Its also strength based for what its worth, dipping or going dex based was too much taken away from the core aspect of KNOWING EVERYTHING which is what really makes the class hilariously fun. Dump as many feats as you can into Extra Investigator Talents or Extra Inspiration. If you can snag an inspired weapon and have the points to keep it fueled than you can keep up with damage well enough with just that and everything else is free for cheesing out your skill cheks. Remember to drink lots and lots of Tears to Wine!
I'd be interested in seeing your race and ability score spreads.
|
|
Unless you've got the Armor Expert trait or something similar, you should be taking a -1 penalty on all of your str/dex based checks from your armor (attacks, initiative, skills, etc). Mithral basically turns it into light armor, but unless you're actually proficient in medium armor (the original type of the armor), you're still taking the ACP as a non-proficiency penalty.
This does give me hope of remaining a wayang and still being strength based.. Ugh, analysis paralysis at its worst..
then his trait is probably armor expert and not reactionary.
Looks like you are using your FCB for the half-elf's option of adding +1/4th to your inspiration rolls. Not sure if that was expressly mentioned.
If Hurtful was PFS-legal, half the melee character out there would use it, and the other half that needed their swift-actions for something else would feel rightly ripped-off. Hurtful is just... too much, at least in my opinion.