So i was thinking of making a throwing weapon based character, and i ran into a could of issues that had me posing some rule questions which i would like to clear up. For my ease of building I will go through these in the topics as they came up for me.
1) What exactly are the throwning weapons and what can i use to throw?
this might seem silly, but there is some confusing stuff going on here.
I get that they must be a weapon type (light, one handed, ect), but not a weapon property (blocking, monk, ect). That means that a weapon can have multiple types. A javelin is both a 1 handed melee weapon and a thrown weapon, or a throwing axe is both a light weapon and a thrown weapon.
of which these are also light (finessable and agile enhancement)
Sadly throwing shields (with shield trained) don't benefit because enhancements don't apply.
1.1) BUUUUUUUT WAIT! arguably you can use
Requirement(s) Gorum
You were trained to use shields as weapons. Heavy and light shields are considered simple weapons rather than martial weapons for you. Heavy shields are considered light weapons for you.
and get this to apply to shields if you are a Shield champion (brawler) because it allows you to apply enhancements and you can get the size increase bonuses because you treat the throwing damage as a Shield Bash.
This means one can treat your (+1 bashing)light shield (+1 agile)spiked shield as a 1d8+[Dex] throwing weapon right?
1.11) With Shield trained it tells me to treat the HEAVY SHIELDS as light weapons. Does that mean they I can use the Finesse feat?
I know i can already use it as with swashbuckler's finesse because it counts as a 1h piercing weapon . And if i can use it with finesse, then i should be able to apply agile to the weapon aswell right?
Agile weapons are unusually well balanced and responsive. A wielder with the Weapon Finesse feat can choose to apply her Dexterity modifier to damage rolls with an agile weapon in place of her Strength modifier. This modifier to damage is not increased for two-handed weapons, but is still reduced for off-hand weapons.
1.12) So that means one could get Captain Andorran to throw a (+1 bashing)heavy shield (+1 agile)spiked shield as a 2d6+[Dex] right?
But back to throwing weapons
These are 1 handed options
Nothing exciting here. No slashing grace shenanigans yet.
1.2)
"Slashing grace?"
I hear you remark.
well, this was all under the assumption that all throwing weapons are ONLY those in the throw weapon group. If we were to treat ANYTHING with a range increment as a range increment, suddenly the list gets much bigger (like a Sibat and some interesting options open up. Now is that maybe the correct interpretation?And then combining this enhancement:
together with:
We could potentially be tossing +1 throwing, returning Adamantine greatswords. For 2d6+[Str]
Or we could skip the cost for a +1 enhancement by being a barbarian.
Benefit: While raging, you can throw a two-handed weapon as a standard action, and you double the range increment for weapons you throw. If you also have the Quick Draw feat, you can throw two-handed weapons at your full normal rate of attacks. Further, you can pick up an unattended object that you can use as a improvised weapon within your reach as part of the attack action to throw that item.
1.21) Now RAW, we'd still need to have Quickdraw to be able to attack multiple times, despite having a returning weapon, but I would suspect that that RAI, we could manage without right?
Now forgetting the 2h options and back to slashing grace.
Benefit: Choose one kind of light or one-handed slashing weapon (such as the longsword). When wielding your chosen weapon one-handed, you can treat it as a one-handed piercing melee weapon for all feats and class abilities that require such a weapon (such as a swashbuckler's or a duelist's precise strike) and you can add your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier to that weapon's damage. The weapon must be one appropriate for your size.
You do not gain this benefit while fighting with two weapons or using flurry of blows, or any time another hand is otherwise occupied.
1.22) Since we can now make any melee weapon throwable, and we know we can apply slashing grace to the ever adored Falcata or scimitar. AND since the feat doesn't specify that the damage replacement is restricted to melee hits. Does this mean that a lv 8 swashbuckler can toss out his +1 throwing, returning falcata for 1d8+[dex](17-20)x3+[lv] damage?
1.3) Now the last part, with the feats:
Benefit: While using Slipslinger Style, as a standard action you can use a sling to hurl an alchemical splash weapon, treating it as a sling bullet for the purpose of drawing and loading it into your sling. Your sling deals its normal weapon damage, plus the loaded splash weapon’s effect or damage. This extra damage is not multiplied on a critical hit.
Benefit: You can use a sling to hurl alchemical splash weapons as ammunition with Slipslinger Grenadier during an attack action or a full-attack action, loading your sling with such weapons as a free action.
I can start tossing out Alchemical splash weapons with my sling as if they were bullets. But whose extra splash damage does not multiply.
Does this mean I am attacking with my sling? (, hitting AC, applying enhancement and feat bonuses, and most importantly treating it as a weapon in the thrown weapon group )
Or am I treating it as a modified thrown splash weapon? (getting bonuses of splash weapons like targetign touch AC, increased aoe or [int] to damage from alchemist}
I'm leaning for the former (this opens up Startoss style), but i can understand the latter for RAI.
Now for the next set of questions.
2) How to attack with different throwing weapons.
Normally you use Dex to hit with ranged attack. But with the magical belt
Slot belt; Price 14,000 gp; Weight 1 lb.
Description
This thick leather belt is buckled with a bright bronze clasp in the shape of a fist. When worn, it grants its wearer a +2 enhancement bonus to Strength and allows him to apply his Strength modifier as a bonus on attack rolls instead of his Dexterity modifier when making ranged attacks with thrown weapons. Also, the range increment of any weapon thrown by the wearer gains a +10-foot bonus. Treat this Strength bonus as a temporary ability bonus for the first 24 hours the belt is worn.
You can use your STR to hit on ranged attacks with thrown weapons. Pretty straight forward.
2.1) But does this apply to slings aswell?
2.2) And while we are on the subject of slings, I take it that since they fall in the thrown weapon group I can use Startoss style and the subsequent feats with it aswell, correct?
Benefit: Choose one weapon from the thrown fighter weapon group. While using this style and the chosen weapon, you gain a bonus on damage rolls made with the weapon equal to 2 + 2 per style feat you possess that lists Startoss Style as a prerequisite (maximum +6 damage). You cannot use this ability if you are carrying a weapon or a shield in your off hand (except for a buckler).
Special: In addition to the chosen weapon, a character with this feat and the weapon training (thrown) class feature can use Startoss Style with any thrown weapons that she wields in one hand.
2.3) And while we are on this, does that mean that if we treat the sling as a thrown weapon, does this mean we can combine (MoMS Monk) Startoss style, with Slipslinger style (and eventually Slipslinger Bombardment)? And can we do this with ALL "Slings"?
You gain a +1 bonus on damage rolls made with all types of slings, and don’t provoke attacks of opportunity when reloading a sling. In addition, you treat all ranged and thrown weapons that have “sling” in their name as if they were slings for all feats and class abilities that require such weapons, as well as the warslinger racial trait.
3) Then there is the question about improvised weapons. There are feats that allow you throw improvised items without penalty.
Benefit: You do not suffer any penalties for using an improvised ranged weapon. You receive a +1 circumstance bonus on attack rolls made with thrown splash weapons.
Normal: You take a –4 penalty on attack rolls made with an improvised weapon
And to even increase the size:
Prerequisites: Catch Off-Guard or Throw Anything, base attack bonus +8.
Benefit: You do not suffer any penalties for using an improvised weapon. Increase the amount of damage dealt by the improvised weapon by one step (for example, 1d4 becomes 1d6) to a maximum of 1d8 (2d6 if the improvised weapon is two-handed). The improvised weapon has a critical threat range of 19–20, with a critical multiplier of ×2.
3.1) Now does this also apply to throwing statues/metal urns with the Hurling rage powers?
Hurling, Lesser (Ex) : As a full-round action while raging, the barbarian can lift and hurl an object up to one size category smaller than herself with both hands or two size categories smaller with one hand as an improvised weapon with a range increment of 10 feet. This inflicts damage as a falling object (Core Rulebook 443) plus the barbarian’s Strength bonus. This damage is halved if the object is not made of stone, metal, or similar material. This is a ranged touch attack, and the target may attempt a Reflex save (DC 10 + 1/2 the barbarian’s level + the barbarian’s Strength modifier) for half damage. The barbarian may apply Power Attack to this attack as a one- or two-handed weapon, as appropriate.
Hurling(Ex) :
As lesser hurling, but the barbarian can increase the range increment to 20 feet or increase the size of a hurled object by one size category. A barbarian must have the lesser hurling rage power to select this rage power. A barbarian must be at least 8th level to select this rage power.
Hurling, greater(Ex) :
As hurling, but the barbarian can increase the range increment to 30 feet or increase the size of a hurled object by two size categories. A barbarian must have the hurling rage power to select this rage power. A barbarian must be at least 12th level to select this rage power.
Does this mean A lv 4 gnome Barbarian can pick up a tiny object in 2h (like a metal urn) increase it to small object (2d6)with improvised master 2d6+1.5[STR] ?
3.2) and If i am an Enlarged lv 12 Bar (or Primalist (bloodrager), can i pick up a Huge Statue and chuck it at my foes without it shrinking when i release it? Or does it get enlarged to Gargantuan when i pick it up and then shrink back to Huge when I throw it?
3.3) And does this also stack with the Breaker (barbarian) Battle Scavanger ability?
3.4)I also assume this works for the Body Bludgeon rage power
3.5) And while we are here, can we take weapon focus and weapon specialization for Improvised weapons ? I assume those would also apply to weapons when they are thrown.
And for the people who like to sneak attack or hit touch AC's. The Catch of Guard feat states:
3.6) Now RAI i presume they say improvised melee weapon, they mean a melee attack, but could I RAW this as to also apply to ranged attacks when throwing improvised melee weapons? (like chucking a bar stool, or a bench, so i could to sneak attack by throwing improvised melee weapons vs the Flatfooted AC of unarmed opponents?
4) So now we finally arrive at the last portion of my queries. Increasing the damage potential.
So i already addressed some thing like a changing the [mod] you get to apply to damage, or if you can add enhancement bonuses and size increases. I assume if you are throwing with a magically beefed up weapon that count as larger then it looks, you will do appropriate damage.
Now the easiest ways to increase the damage pool i think at to use either the monk progressions for throwing monk weapons, the Brawler progression for throwing close weapons or the warpriest sacred weapon progression when it comes to throwing any other light or 1h weapon . (warpriest of Kurgess anyone?).
But after all of talk about what we can consider a thrown weapon. i was wondering. Can we further increase the size of weapons we toss with spells like Lead Blades
CASTING
Casting Time 1 standard action
Components V, S
EFFECT
Range personal
Targets touch
Duration 1 minute/level (D)
DESCRIPTION
Lead blades increases the momentum and density of your melee weapons just as they strike a foe. All melee weapons you are carrying when the spell is cast deal damage as if one size category larger than they actually are. For instance, a Medium longsword normally deals 1d8 points of damage, but it would instead deal 2d6 points of damage if benefiting from lead blades (see table below). Only you can benefit from this spell. If anyone else uses one of your weapons to make an attack it deals damage as normal for its size.
Again, there is no specification of having to make melee attacks. So our lv 4/2 ranger/barb could use raging hurler and a wand of returning weapon to toss our lead bladed greatsword at a foe for 3d6+[str]. Correct?
4.1) And I could use the same spell to boost Captain Andorran's shield to 3d6 right? (since the size increases come from two different effects)
4.2) But can we go even crazier? How about we just dip a ranger and go strait up Titan Fighter (Fighter), or take the Titan Mauler (Barbarian) aswell, and start lobbing around an oversized lead bladed greatswords at a foe for 4d6+[str]? Sure, the to hit is terrible.
Giant Weapon Wielder (Ex): At 1st level, a titan fighter can wield two-handed melee weapons intended for creatures one size category larger than himself, treating them as two-handed weapons. He takes an additional –2 penalty on attack rolls when using an oversized two-handed weapon. This ability replaces the fighter’s 1st level bonus feat.
Incredible Heft (Ex) : At 3rd level, a titan fighter becomes more skilled at wielding weapons intended for creatures one size category larger than himself. The penalty on attack rolls for using such weapons is reduced by 1, including when using oversized two-handed weapons. At 7th level and every 4 levels thereafter, this penalty is reduced by another 1 (minimum 0). This ability replaces armor training.
Jotungrip (Ex): At 2nd level, a titan mauler may choose to wield a two-handed melee weapon in one hand with a –2 penalty on attack rolls while doing so. The weapon must be appropriately sized for her, and it is treated as one-handed when determining the effect of Power Attack, Strength bonus to damage, and the like. This ability replaces uncanny dodge.
Massive Weapons (Ex): At 3rd level, a titan mauler becomes skilled in the use of massive weapons looted from her titanic foes. The attack roll penalty for using weapons too large for her size is reduced by 1, and this reduction increases by 1 for every three levels beyond 3rd (to a minimum of 0). This ability replaces trap sense.
Sure, the to hit is terrible. But RAW, there is nothing stopping us from throwing oversized weapons right?
5) Coming back to Hercules, Warpriest of Kurgess for a moment.
Benefit: As a standard action, you can make a single ranged thrown weapon attack at your full attack bonus with the chosen weapon. If you hit, you deal damage normally and can make a second attack (at your full attack bonus) against a target within one range increment of the first. You determine cover for this attack from the first target’s space instead of your space. You can make only one additional attack per round with this feat. If you have Vital Strike, Improved Vital Strike, or Greater Vital Strike, you can add the additional damage from those feats to the initial ranged attack (but not the second attack).
Benefit: When you hit an opponent while using the Startoss Comet feat, you can continue to make attacks against foes that are within one range increment of all previous opponents. You determine cover for each attack from the most recently hit foe’s space instead of your space, and you cannot attack an individual foe more than once during this attack action. You can make a maximum number of attacks equal to 1 + 1 per 5 points of base attack bonus you possess. If you have Vital Strike, Improved Vital Strike, or Greater Vital Strike, you can add the additional damage from those feats to the initial ranged attack (but not any subsequent attacks).
This lv 5/1 human warpriest
B deadly aim, C, weapon focus spear, 1 point blank shot, 3 startoss comet, B, precise shot, 5 startoss shower. With returning weapon prepared and a wand of lead blades and using deadly aim.
Can (standard)toss his +1 (sacred) shocking spear at a target at full BAB, against orc 1 at 20ft (, then another (comet) at Orc2 who is 20ft further away and then (shower) another one at Full BAB at orc 3 who is 20 ft further away and then the last at -5 to hit vs Orc4 (not sure if this is how the feat works) and damage each orc for 2d6+[Str]+5 +1d6[elec] and an additional +6 to Orc 1.
And if he uses a +1 (sacred)shocking javelin it would be 1d8+[Str]+5 +1d6[elec]to each Orc within 50ft of the next target.
Correct?
Sorry for the long post, i didn't want to have to smear this out over multiple threads and i tried to include everything relevant to people who would consider making a throwing based character, or a halfling slinging alchemist.
* I fundamentally misread the returning weapon enhancement. I understand that you cannot make Full attacks with it. It would require a ricochet weapon Class ability, or Ricochet shot
Benefit(s): When you make a ranged attack with an appropriate thrown weapon, the weapon returns to your hand immediately after the attack is resolved.
This ability does not allow bullets, thrown ammunition such as darts or shuriken, or thrown splash weapons to return to you. Improvised thrown weapons don't return to you unless you have the Throw Anything feat.
(and Martial focus if you aren't a fighter.)
Benefit(s): Choose one fighter weapon group . While wielding a weapon from this group with which you are proficient, you gain a +1 bonus on damage rolls.
Special: The Martial Focus feat counts as the weapon training class feature with the chosen fighter weapon group for the purpose of weapon mastery feat prerequisites and what weapons you can use with weapon mastery feats.
So there is a feat tax if you want to hurl your +1 throwing earthbreakers at a foe multiple times a round.
That, and you can also do this as a non barbarian with the Two handed thrower feat...
Benefit: Whenever you use two hands to throw a one-handed or two-handed weapon, you gain a bonus on damage rolls equal to 1-1/2 times your Strength bonus. Using two hands to throw any weapon requires only a standard action for you. If you also have the Quick Draw feat, you can throw two-handed weapons at your full normal rate of attacks.
Normal: You add your Strength bonus on thrown weapon damage, regardless of available hands. Throwing a two-handed weapon is a full-round action.
If we consider that the throwing enhancement turns a weapon into a and actual ranged thrown weapon... which remains the question.
I've also been reading a bit further on the forums into the the sling, slipslinger style and startoss style . Apparently the dev intended for slings to be applicable with both styles. So you can at least get the extra damage and widen your weapon options when using startoss style and sling feats.
The question would then be if the standard actions to load a splash weapon as a bullet and fire it as a bullet sliplinger Grenadier . Will actually make it count as a bullet and be usable with the Startoss feats (including the other way around to get the bonus damage from the startoss feats when doing the normal sling damage during a slipslinger grenadier attack.
And my assesment at the end of Herculer throwing the spear was incorrect He would make 4 attacks at full BAB and all at 2d6+[STR]+[6(featdam)]+1 +1d6{elec}, each attack targeting another foe beyond the next. And this during a standard action.
I i replace a spear with a Javeling, All that changes is the damage die and the range of the ability.
So Questions 2.2, 2.3 and 5) have already been answered. The rest if could not find concrete answers on. yet.