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Hello everyone and Happy New Year 2017!
I may from time to time add a thread or two devoted to the martial classes, hence the ominous thread title, which suggests there may be more to come. By all means feel free to add threads named in a similar manner - this is for ease of tracking down the road.
My first thread relates to the old staple that was the Gauntlets of Ogre Power. Please bring it back. I don't care if it doesn't stack with the belt (or perhaps partially stacks i.e. if you have no belt, you're treated as STR 18, if you already have a belt, it adds +2...) ...BUT please... bring it back.
This won't make a smidgeon of a difference on the relative power level of a fighter vs. wizard, but this will go a long way in making the fighter, paladin, ranger, and other martial classes more enjoyable, as you are no longer slave to pumping STR up that much, which may result in other higher stats. Various builds could be possible with a comfortable STR 18 - you won't have the best damage, but you'll be able to qualify for most feats with it, and if you've upped INT to 13 (DEX to 15, CHA to 13) you now have more options down the road.
Also, such an item could be really cool for clerics, who could regain a little bit of melee luster when the oh-so-rare occasion presents itself - not to talk about the elusive wildshaping druid or polymorphing wizard too... look! I can put those gloves on before going smashy smashy, and lo and behold! I can be wise and smart again! (respectively! :P)
2nd edition didn't have to worry about stats in terms of feat prerequisites, so maybe also firm up language for such an item as well, making it plain and simple that you can qualify for STR feats with that item on. Pathfinder added some much needed verbiage on the temporary vs. permanent wearing of magic items, but perhaps it's time to relax a bit about 'no longer qualifying for feats' if you say, lose your pants (and the belt of STR that was holding those up!)
Just some randomized thought outputs in the eve of 2017. ;)
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I suppose they might think that Gauntlets of Ogre Power might be a bit ogrewhelming in power, and would actually help casters more than martials.
The one thing that casters don't have are decent physical stats to avoid being grappled or hit with other nasty CMB's. If they had 18 Strength from the gauntlets, which they can affordably make themselves, that becomes a significantly lower threat when their base was 7. The cost would be quite high presumably, and that's a cost casters generally have the least trouble dealing with due to magic item creation feats.
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GTW has it right. The lower you feel comfortable with your str being without the gauntlets, the better they are for you. I can think of a lot of low-str wizards who wouldn't mind using their gloves magic slot instead of their belt or cloak slot.
If you want to ensure they can't be easily cheesed by casters make them require base STR 12 or 13 to use.
I know stat requirements are non typical on items but that pretty easily avoids STR dump casters from cheesing them too hard.
Also (joys of running a home game) I may actually add this item to my world... with said restriction.
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I just think it's a bit weird we only have one main way to increase strength in a magical world like Golarion. Gauntlets of Ogre Power could help both divine and arcane casters with their melee touch spells.
But to come back to martials... I'd love to be able to dump STR on a paladin or ranger or fighter, and do *other* things with said characters. It would help with multiclass options too...
What do you think a Pathfinder version of Gauntlets of Ogre Power should be?
STR 18 or 20?
I noticed Maul of the Titans (still?) requires STR 18 to be wielded... I don't remember if these two items were originally meant as a set then...
Ogre's have a +8 racial adjustment to strength.
If you want the Gauntlets to stack with a Strength Belt, change the bonuses from a straight Strength boost to a bonus to Strength-related checks.
Maybe something like-
These thick leather gloves grant the user a +4 bonus on melee attack rolls with one or two handed weapons, Bull Rush, Overrun, Grapple, Sunder and Reposition attempts, and grant a +4 bonus to your CMD. In addition, you treat your carrying capacity as though your strength were four points higher.
You'll notice the gloves I wrote up don't work with light or thrown weapons and don't add a bonus to damage. (martial don't need damage bonuses. They need versatility increases.)
The way it's worded, it should not be very attractive to casters or finesse-based characters.
PF's style of belt of strength subsumed the gauntlets and belt of the old days. The intent I believe was to get rid of items that gave you a predetermined ability score because that makes your original ability score irrelevant. If someone with 20 Str and someone with 10 Str both put on the a strength boosting item, should they both end up with the same strength? I think its more fair and more fun if the 20 Str character still ends up stronger than the 10 Str character.
I started a thread in 2013 to re-introduce the gauntlets of ogre power, but it was to make a strength version of the circlet of persuassion. I began the thread but someone else ran with the idea.
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The 3.5 version of the Gauntlets was this:
Gauntlets of Ogre Power
These gauntlets are made of tough leather with iron studs running across the back of the hands and fingers. They grant the wearer great strength, adding a +2 enhancement bonus to his Strength score. Both gauntlets must be worn for the magic to be effective.
Faint transmutation; CL 6th; Craft Wondrous Item, bull’s strength; Price 4,000 gp; Weight 4 lb.
The Pathfinder RPG Belt of Giant STR is this (both wouldn't stack, as you mentioned):
Belt of Giant Strength
Aura moderate transmutation; CL 8th
Slot belt; Weight 1 lb.; Price 4,000 gp (+2), 16,000 gp (+4), 36,000 gp (+6)
Description
This belt is a thick leather affair, often decorated with huge metal buckles. The belt grants the wearer an enhancement bonus to Strength of +2, +4, or +6. Treat this as a temporary ability bonus for the first 24 hours the belt is worn.
Construction Requirements
Craft Wondrous Item, bull's strength; Cost 2,000 gp (+2), 8,000 gp (+4), 18,000 gp (+6)
Therefore, I'm thinking about bringing them back with a set 18 score (same as before but not quite as good as we don't have 18/00 anymore) or provides an enhancement bonus of 2 if you're already 18 or higher.
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Addendum: I know, it wouldn't stack with the belt, but would be a far superior magic item for those with low STR. A belt of STR +2 is a paltry, useless item for the unfortunate dude with a STR of 6 or 7. I'm sure re-pricing would be required, but would go a long way to make a weak guy strong in a significant way.
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Fighters would have to choose between these and gloves of duelling. Since starting with high str is almost mandatory for fighters an item giving them fixed str wouldn't be much useful. On the other hand classes who can dump str would love the gountlets of Ogre Power. The end result would be different than the expected one: more power to casters and less to fighters or martials.
If you want to reintroduce the GoOP I suggest the following
Gauntlets of Ogre Power: These gauntlets are made of tough leather with iron studs running across the back of the hands and fingers. They grant the wearer great strength giving their wearer a +2 morale bonus to attack rolls and damage
Useful for most martials (not for barbarians I'm afraid but they don't really need them) and this way they won't end up being more useful for casters than for martials.
Also note how a +2 to attack rolls and damage equals an increase of +4 to str stacking with belt of giant strength.P.S.
Now you just need to bring back the Hammer of Thunderbolts and have it stack with belt and gauntlests... :D
Could you make a theoretical "your STR is now 18" to be an expensive (so dumping STR and waiting until you can buy them painful) item that works only for certain classes?
If, say, only reasonably wealthy fighters, swashbucklers, and barbarians could get their STR set to 18 by buying gloves, that would be a nice boost to throwing builds, at least.
There's a reason they completely redid how polymorph works. There's a reason I've never actually played with a Synthesist (and I think they're the most banned archetype?). Stat replacement is broken. Especially if you use point buy. Setting Str to 18 either doesn't do much (the 16 Str Fighter), makes things worse (the 20 Str barbarian), is an endgame item (the 10 Str Wizard), or an epic level artifact (the Wizard's 2 Str familiar). Since you price it based on the ideal user... epic level artifact (200k+) it is!
As you already said, for people who focus on Str the normal belt is probably better. The only people who would be using the gauntlets are the ones who benefit way, way more. It would be an item exclusively used to game the system. And with the much greater availability of magic items in Pathfinder (and the ability to make them yourself), anyone who wants it would find a way to get it. Even in odd forms (familiar sized, for a velociraptor, etc.).
Honestly, I'm not really opposed, I'm just pretty sure it wouldn't do what you want. Unless what you want is to bring back CoDzilla.
I was going to write a longer response, but Bob already hit the nail on the head.
My experience with the 2nd edition and 5th edition gauntlets of ogre power, which basically do exactly what you suggest, was that they were primarily used by characters for whom Strength wasn't their main focus. And in Pathfinder, where stat increases are more liberal, the "give it to the guy who dumped Strength" effect would be even more pronounced: Unless you can afford it at 2nd-3rd level, if Strength is your primary stat you can't afford to dump it until you get this one item, and when you get into the later levels, Strength 18 isn't going to cut the mustard.
And if it is very expensive (I'd eyeball it to be a +10 equivalent bonus, with a 50% discount for being capped, so around 50,000) then it is a toy for wizards and other characters who can afford to ignore Strength for the first 10-15 levels.
TL;DR: The 2nd and 5th edition style gauntlets of ogre power don't help the martials "rise".
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Add one more vote to the 'this is really not a good idea' pile.
D&D 5th Edition has returned to this idea, and it pretty much sucks. A group I was in found a set of these gauntlets at level 4 (sets your strength to 19) and it ended up with the....Cleric (my character).
- The Fighter already had an 18 Strength (functionally the same as a 19),
- The Barbarian also had an 18 Strength,
- The rogue had a pretty low strength, but used Dexterity for attacks and damage so didn't really care,
- So the 12 strength Cleric got magic gauntlets and started swinging his mace in melee for a little while
So, it basically ended up that the Cleric had much better overall stats than everyone else because he didn't put a lot of resources into strength, which rubs me the wrong way (and it's my character!). A single item like this shouldn't take a character from 'can swing a mace and maybe even hit' to 'just about as good as the fighter, for a little while at least' all by itself.
3rd Edition and its descendants was pretty smart to do away with 'fixed stat' items like this in my opinion: In truth, the addition of the so-called 'magic shop' probably required the removal of these items, as they could be extremely abusive if getting one was just a matter of getting enough cash.
Why don't you just have the gauntlets give a fully stackable damage bonus.
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I'd love this for a vigilante. 20 pt buy:
Str (12) Dex (18) Con (14) Int (10) Wis (10) Cha (13)
Lethal Grace, Fist of the Avenger. Add in Dragon Style and it's upgrade. At Lvl 8 get the gauntlets for a boost to Str 18. Now get +12 to hit, +16 damage (before power attack and amulet of mighty blows). Stuck at 1d4 base damage? Who cares with passive damage like that. Throw in good face skills and he'd be a really fun character to play. The gloves would be great for him.
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This would rock for a pally or ranger. Pally can bump up wis and cha. Ranger can put it all in dex and switch hit decently in melee. Etc. Not saying it's optimized but just frees up more options.
And I wouldn't have an issue at all seeing a cleric more often in melee with this.
Bottom line I'm seeing a lot dex builds that still have a problem with their CMB, carrying capacity, etc. The dex feats never seem written to make fully functional PCs (always feels like you must still go halfway STR). I'm aware dex is a significant advantage but some dex builds need 3-5 feats to take off... so an item that let's them catch up a bit would be cool. Wondering about pricing at this point. I'm open to artifact design if need be...
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I don't think that would do much good for pure martials - do you dump strength and be useless until you attain the gauntlets (after which you have a strength of 18, pretty unimpressive for a Fighter)? Or do you pump strength and then when you get the gauntlets your original strength attribute goes to waste?
But it would be great for Clerics, Druids, Oracles, etc. They could dump strength and use spellcasting until they can afford the gauntlets, and then become excellent melee characters later on.
And it should definitely work on thrown weapons, and stack with a belt. (fond memories of his AD&D1 cleric of Thor with a girdle of Giant Strength, Gauntlets of Ogre Power, and Hammer of Thunderbolts)
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Fighters would have to choose between these and gloves of duelling. Since starting with high str is almost mandatory for fighters an item giving them fixed str wouldn't be much useful. On the other hand classes who can dump str would love the gountlets of Ogre Power. The end result would be different than the expected one: more power to casters and less to fighters or martials.
If you want to reintroduce the GoOP I suggest the following
Gauntlets of Ogre Power: These gauntlets are made of tough leather with iron studs running across the back of the hands and fingers. They grant the wearer great strength giving their wearer a +2 morale bonus to attack rolls and damageUseful for most martials (not for barbarians I'm afraid but they don't really need them) and this way they won't end up being more useful for casters than for martials.
Also note how a +2 to attack rolls and damage equals an increase of +4 to str stacking with belt of giant strength.P.S.
Now you just need to bring back the Hammer of Thunderbolts and have it stack with belt and gauntlests... :D
And advanced versions: When you get to Hil Giant, it adds an extra buff like punishing kick.
Gauntlets of Ogre Power: These gauntlets are made of tough leather with iron studs running across the back of the hands and fingers. They grant the wearer great strength giving their wearer a +1 morale bonus to attack rolls and damage. Price 3K gp
Gauntlets of Hill Giant Power: +2 Morale attk/dam, Price 12K gp. A character who succeeds on a attack roll with a melee or thrown weapon while wearing these gauntlets can choose to knock their target back 5ft from the sheer force of their blow.
In addition, you may perform a Feat of Strength (examples below) 1/day. Because they require focus and discipline, most of these Feats cannot be performed in combat.
Feats of Strength include such actions as: Bending bars made of iron or steel; lifting a massive gate, boulder, or other heavy object over your head for one minute; crushing a mundane item (not made of mythril or adamantium) to dust or shrapnel; punching through a wall to create a hole the size of a window or doorway; throwing a handheld object half a mile or more; or leaping straight up 20 feet or straight forward 40 feet without the aid of a running start.
Gauntlets of Stone Giant Power: +3 Morale attk/dam, Price 27K gp. A character who succeeds on a attack roll with a melee or thrown weapon while wearing these gauntlets can choose to knock their target back 5ft from the sheer force of their blow.
Feat of Strength 2/day
Gauntlets of Fire Giant Power: +4 Morale attk/dam, Price 56K gp. A character who succeeds on a attack roll with a melee or thrown weapon while wearing these gauntlets can choose to knock their target back 10ft from the sheer force of their blow. Feat of Strength 3/day
Gauntlets of Cloud Giant Power: +5 Morale attk/dam, Price 112K gp. A character who succeeds on a attack roll with a melee or thrown weapon while wearing these gauntlets can choose to knock their target back 15ft from the sheer force of their blow. Feat of Strength 4/day
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useful in making archers and switch hitters even more powerful. It also makes characters more reliant on magic items, and fails to fix the problem... A magic item as solution to a martial/caster disparity seems wrong too.
Combat stamina (free for martial classes) is the current paizo fix, it seems decent.
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Went and dug out my original stuff.
Gauntlets of Ogre Power: These gauntlets give the wearer the ability to strike as an Ogre and generally give his hands and arms the strength of an ogre. They do not necessarily increase his hit probability however.
Girdle of Giant Strength: Wearing this device bestows the strength and hit probability (if greater than the wearer's own) of Hill Giant.
To go with the spirit, but still go with Pathfinder's war-gamey sensibilities, at least to a point, here is my take.
Gauntlets of Ogre Power should give a stacking Damage boost, (+5?) and/or the ability to use weapons one size category higher than normal for you, or strike as if they are one category higher.
Girdles of Giant Strength should be as standard girdles of strength, but add additional lift/carry effects.
Went and dug out my original stuff.
Gauntlets of Ogre Power: These gauntlets give the wearer the ability to strike as an Ogre and generally give his hands and arms the strength of an ogre. They do not necessarily increase his hit probability however.Girdle of Giant Strength: Wearing this device bestows the strength and hit probability (if greater than the wearer's own) of Hill Giant.To go with the spirit, but still go with Pathfinder's war-gamey sensibilities, at least to a point, here is my take.
Gauntlets of Ogre Power should give a stacking Damage boost, (+5?) and/or the ability to use weapons one size category higher than normal for you, or strike as if they are one category higher.
Girdles of Giant Strength should be as standard girdles of strength, but add additional lift/carry effects.
I don't think magic items to grant even bigger damage bonuses are really all that warranted.
As GD mentioned above, boosting archer damage further just gets silly, as does (non-UC) Barbarian Pounce damage - such characters already do staggering amounts of damage, and inflating the rocket tag further doesn't actually do anything to address the point of the entire M/C-D argument; that martials lack agency at higher levels due to the inability to affect their environment or surroundings except by hitting things harder with a sword/bow.
Get him some buffs (the game is built around this being the case, and this is from a single bard) and he's running at +36M/+36/+36/+31/+26/+21 (1d8+34, 19-20x3). Against an APL+2 creature (AC 33, 300hp) that's an average of over 265hp damage per round.
Swapping the gloves of duelling for your +5 morale bonus gloves, and this increases to over 285 damage a round on average. Enough to end a "Hard" encounter in one round with above average dice.
Beyond which, what <ed> martials is it going to be used by if it isn't good for barbarians? Fighters aren't going to give up gloves of dueling for it, especially with the weapon training options.
Gloves for paladins and cavaliers?
Can't and won't argue optimal about it, or whether they are called for, since that is a matter of preferences. It is all just ideas for ways to retain the flavor of some old items. If it doesn't work for you, fine. If this fits someone's desired flavor, great.
It's a game, we don't have to be right.
Can't and won't argue optimal about it, or whether they are called for, since that is a matter of preferences. It is all just ideas for ways to retain the flavor of some old items. If it doesn't work for you, fine. If this fits someone's desired flavor, great.
It's a game, we don't have to be right.
And that is perfectly okay. What occurs in a home game is entirely each group's business. Hell, I had an Eberron pathfinder game where everyone was running around in 40K style power armor or mecha.
Given the title and purpose of this thread was intended to be much broader than a simple home game, however, I felt it worth pointing out that alternate (and more optimal) damage-boosting magic items are not actually what is needed to make martial characters more viable.
Because damage is the one thing they can (with care) do well already.
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I think the thing that (non-Barbarian) martials could really make use of is some item that enables them to move and full attack at least a few times a day.
I'd like to think the Quick Runner's Shirt got nerfed because "1k is pretty cheap for that" not because "we simply do not want martials to be able to do that."
I simply do not think that "giving the fighter more narrative power" (assuming we could even agree on what that means) is a thing that can be accomplished with slotted magic items.
What's the deal with gloves of dueling being indispensable? I had never even heard of them before reading this thread. No one in my groups have ever used them, and yet have lived to tell the tale.
Gloves of Dueling used to be just "good", but now your weapon training bonus potentially adds to:
- number of times you can use limited per day combat feats
- CMD
- Counteracting non-proficiency penalties.
- Intimidate Checks
- Reflex Saves
- Number of rerolls on fear saves you can grant allies.
- Damage when using weapon finesse.
- Damage when dealing nonlethal damage.
- Damage when using thrown weapons
- Initiative
- Number of times you can enhance your weapon with warrior spirit and how much it can be enhanced.
- Number of additional weapons you can apply Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization, etc. to.
(I'm leaving out Weapon Sacrifice since no one wants to do that).
Odds are pretty good that if you're a fighter, you're going to want to take advantage of at least one or two of those, so 2 more uses of warrior spirit and initiative (in addition to +2 to hit and damage) is better than what else you'd be getting from your gloves.
Gauntlets of Ogre Power: These gauntlets are made of tough leather with iron studs running across the back of the hands and fingers. They grant the wearer great strength giving their wearer a +2 morale bonus to attack rolls and damageUseful for most martials (not for barbarians I'm afraid but they don't really need them)
Barbarians only get the morale bonus to their STR and CON directly, they can get the additional bonus from this on top of it. Considering how high end barbs also love using corageous weapons anyway (and superstition means you frequently can't be heroism'd after a fight starts), it might actually even be better for them than most melee classes.
What's the deal with gloves of dueling being indispensable? I had never even heard of them before reading this thread. No one in my groups have ever used them, and yet have lived to tell the tale.
Its mostly from a pure optimization perspective. Beyond being +2 to hit and damage (basically a +4 strength boost) the advanced weapon training options give you a number of stronger than most feats abilities that all hinge on your highest weapon training bonus.
Standouts are
Abundant tactics into barroom brawler, and item mastery feats
AWT also has Double your weapon training to damage when you dex to hit/str to damage on finesse and thrown, weapon training to initiative, weapon training to reflex saves. Magus ability to boost a weapon 1+ weapon training times a day (which the gloves of dueling make superior to the magus ability in output).
Yeah you can do without them, but there's a distinct increase in what you can do, at a lower level if you have them. Not much else can top em for the Fighter class.