Seriously though this book made me imagine a gnome lawyer suing for the personhood of flesh golems and that alone made it worth the purchase price.
Shortstone and Shortstone: Attorneys
Their practice was built on litigating freedom for goblin pets and for human rights for awakened animals...
This will be their hardest case ever - establishing that flesh golems are people and cannot be treated as chattel and must be paid for their labour.
Funded by a consortium of undead rights and labour groups, brother and sister legal team Shortstone and Shortstone is going up against the most powerful economic interests in Castorhage.
Is Beltane secretly backing this upstart crew as part of his plan for undead domination?
... I really want to write an adventure based on this idea now. The Blight is awesome.
First of all, I am sorry for folks who haven't gotten their goodies yet. Mine came a few weeks ago, but I haven't had a great deal of time to delve into it yet. Almost done chapter three at this point.
So far this is the best written RPG supplement I have ever read. Seriously. Yes, there are the usual small typos and misplaced homonyms that plague every monstrously-large, small-press RPG book, but the evocativeness of the language and the atmosphere that is summoned even in rules text is astoundingly good.
The background traits contain some of the best 3rd party traits I've ever read. They capture so much mechanically and flavour wise that I imagine building whole characters around them. I especially like that some of them come with drawbacks.
Seriously though, "Cruel Kin" really gave me the feels. You know when you read an RPG mechanic and it resonates with something in real life? That.
Some of the traits are somewhat powerful but I feel like they fit. And if the GM is on their game in terms of running the setting - they come with not-explicitly set out drawbacks. such as gaining spellike abilities but having a deformity and being slightly offputting to people. (Seems like you'd be more likely to be called out in a witch hunt is all I am saying.)
I really like some of the new subraces, and am so-so on others. The crazy artist elves are pretty wicked and a great take on urbanizing elves.
I dig the new races, especially swyne and the corphagi (cockroach people). Briny are so full of pathos! Night slugs are SO GROSS. I also appreciate the section on residents of the city, it really made me imagine tons of NPCs who would live in the area.
And I like the emphasis on social class. All of the sudden I am like... huh, I want to play a gnome lawyer...
Anyway, not even 1/10 done and I am blown away by this book. It was worth every moment of wait and the team did a bang up job. Bravo.
I also play in Lost Lands.
This review exemplifies why I don't want campaign setting in the RPG line. It makes stuff near impossible to use if you're not in Golarian... heck it's even too specific to be useful in most Golarian campaigns from what I'm reading.
It really is easier to reskin something generic as something that belongs in a world than to reskin something hyper-tailored to a specific world.
I won't be buying this book, which is a shame, because I want to support the game. But I don't enjoy Golarian and I don't want to send the signal that I want it crammed into everything. And I can't see it being even remotely useful for me. I don't want to have to redesign material from scratch to fit it in my campaign.
Nice! I also bought myself Freeport for Christmas! It's a great book. I couldn't resist after getting the pdf from the Frog God Games humble bundle.
If anyone needs some reading material to tide them over until the Blight arrives, I bought a couple extra humble bundle codes for that (one $1 pledge level and one second tier pledge level) and I'd be happy to gift them to good homes - especially fellow worshippers of the Frog God.
It's a nice meaty update!
I know I'm in the minority here but I kind of like that the long delay means I'm going to have a lot of gaming goodies hitting me like a truck parade over the next few months - will make it easier for me to save a bit knowing that I am getting lots of stuff in the mail... easier to say "naw I don't need that new gaming book" when I am getting the Complete Gamer from the Frog's Swords and Wiz kickstarter, a bunch of product from the Reaper Bones 3 KS and then this.... Should be a fun few months.
I was going to say the same. Using slings and throwing things is really hobbled.
I'd also like to see an arcane style divine caster like the archivist from 3.5 - that was, hands down, my favourite class in 3.5 and I was really sad to not see it come forward with horror adventures. (Thought it would be fitting since Archivist came out in "heroes of horror).
It was a bit powerful if the GM let it be since it could learn divine spells from any class as long as it could find the spell written down - but still not as strong as a pure wizard is in pathfinder.
There just isn't a good class or mechanics to get that flavour...
Steve Geddes wrote:
My understanding is that anything loaded with product identity isn't going to be available to use in other books.
The 3PP adventures I run regularly reference NPCs from the NPC Codex and use archetypes from different books. That doesn't work for archetypes and NPCs referencing Paizo IP. And even if they relaxed those rules - those things won't fit in other settings anyway.
And I don't think that 3PPs can (or would want to) just rerelease Paizo's work with the fluff taken out. That would be plagiarism at best - and it would absolutely be copyright infringement.
So it's a lose lose lose for folks who don't like Golarian. They don't get books to buy that are useable off the shelf, the 3PP they like can't use the new mechanics in their books, and they can't even get the rules they might be willing to make workable off the internet.
Really, come on now with the slippery slope arguments. None of us are arguing anything about Starfinder. Please feel free to go start arguments with people who are. I have zero interest in Starfinder so I won't be buying it.
I like pathfinder mechanics, I am running a game using 3rd party books using pathfinder mechanics. I am not going to cancel my game, burn my books and switch systems because I don't like Golarian. Pathfinder was never advertised as GOLARIAN EVERYTHING - THE RPG. If it had been, I would have never bought into it.
I bought the system (around the same time that D&D 5th came out) because:
1) Strong 3rd party support (which will be eroded by these changes)
2) Access to the rules online (which will also be eroded by merging setting with rules books).
I'm a big fan of the rules system, I've bought almost all of the hardbacks, tonnes of the player companions and even a bunch of the setting material from before I abandoned Golarian.
If you like setting - GREAT - I hope Paizo makes setting books for you. But those of us who don't want setting are customers too. Or we are currently. Whether that continues if setting infects other rule books is up in the air.
I am definitely didn't say and would not say they don't work hard etc. I know they do. But as a customer, I want them to know ahead of time that this direction is likely to alienate me and customers like me. If I didn't care about the health of the game I wouldn't say anything.
And calling it "lard" is not trash talking it - it's using the dictionary definition of it which is "to augment or intersperse especially with something superfluous or excessive." Setting material in a non-setting rules splat fits the bill for me. It's superfluous.
Of course folks who would buy the setting material in a campaign setting splat like this change - they get to spend less money and get more of what they want.
But for those of us not interested in such material, we're being asked to pay the same amount to get less of what we want. And it's reasonable for us to be disappointed in that.
Purple Dragon Knight wrote:
Please, enough with this "if you don't like fluff which doesn't work for your world you are a bad GM" or "if you prefer to have non fluffed materials for ease of use you are a bad GM" nonsense. It adds nothing to the discussion.
If you like removing fluff - go ahead and do it. I'm not buying a book of NPCs that I need to rewrite from the ground up.
I am the GM. I am not GMing in Golarian. Two pages about an organization that would absolutely not fit in the world I run is completely useless to me. It's a waste of my money to pay for those two pages instead of 2 pages of material that is useful.
It is reasonable for me to prefer to be able to buy mechanics books that aren't filled with stuff I don't need - and worse, stuff that creates work for me. It's a value for money issue.
I am fine with Golarian flavour in existing in the setting books - because that's what those books are for. But the RPG line was never about shoving Golarian down GM's throats, and if it becomes that I will stop buying it.
Not every pathfinder game is set in Golarian. Setting material should be in setting books. Forcing everyone to buy Golarian to get mechanics is a really crummy way of trying to squeeze customers who don't like the setting to buy it anyway.
And as for "just read it online" - as has been noted by multiple posters - if it is setting material it isn't available on the PRD because it's IP and excluded from the PRD. So it removes it completely from being used by GMs who don't want to pay for Golarian specific material. Basically, this looks like Paizo turning into Hasbro - trying to force people to buy books by making everything IP. This also hurts 3PP - because none of those new mechanics can turn up in 3PP adventures.
They know the RPG line sells more than the Setting line - or they wouldn't be putting this with a generic title (no Golarian or Inner Sea) and they would be dropping an RPG line book not a setting line book. This is their sneaky way of trying to force GMs to buy setting line to get new rules.
The RPG line has always been seperate from the setting line. It's not unreasonable to be annoyed if that suddenly changes.
I ceetainly won't be buying any more Paizo books if they start putting heavy Golarian fluff in everything.
I currently own every hardback but Mythic, strategy guide, Curse of the Crimson Throne, and ultimate intrigue. So I have been a good customer. But I no longer GM in Golarian, and Inner Sea Races was a complete disappointment, so I had no plans to buy any more setting line material.
This book will mark the end of me buying RPG line as well if it signals a new trend.
Meh, not a fan of most of these organizations. Also I prefer my RPG line to be campaign neutral.
This. It's a lot more work to remove fluff than to sprinkle it on - especially when it's baked so deeply in you have to rewrite the material completely to make it work.
This. I am totally into new archetypes and PrCs... unless I need to rewrite them completely... in which case there isn't a lot of point to paying $60-$70 on a hardcover. If I'm going to write the book myself it's not worth the money.
And Inner Sea Races was the most disappointing book I ever bought from Paizo. It had essentially zero new content in it for non-Golarian GMs. But it was setting line, so I got what I deserved for buying it.
Still - this is why I, for one, am really not excited about the RPG line getting taken over by the inner sea line. I've enjoyed most of the RPG line books I've bought - but if it turns into 60% completely useless golarian fluff 30% golarian larded mechanics and 10% semi-usable mechanical stuff that I can "file the serial numbers off" of - it's simply not going to be worth my money.
And forgive me but I simply don't believe assurances that this content is going to be useable outside of Golarian without heavy reworking. 10 new spells and 12 new feats isn't worth $65 or so, which is what HCs sell for here in Canada.
My biggest issue with Golarian themed books is they are so larded with fluff that there isn't actually a lot in them to make them worthwhile to a GM running another setting. I'd rather the 20 pages of actual rules content just get released in the paperback line so it doesn't cost me a fortune.
If you want to ensure they can't be easily cheesed by casters make them require base STR 12 or 13 to use.
I know stat requirements are non typical on items but that pretty easily avoids STR dump casters from cheesing them too hard.
Also (joys of running a home game) I may actually add this item to my world... with said restriction.
Sqn Cdr Flashheart wrote:
Mine arrived today in sunny New Zealand, w00t!
Mine arrived in Canada today!
It's everything I was hoping for. I mean, I had the pdf so I knew how awesome it was, but I just can't really read a pdf properly, I get so distracted from them...
Anyway, it smells amazing, the pages are good and heavy, the stitching is excellent, the art is great, and there are almost 20 pubs detailed in the book! This is a city that feels REAL.
I am almost sad my players are in the valley of the shrines right now... cause playing in the city seems like it would be a lot of fun.
Distant Scholar wrote:
The issue with this is it only includes downloads and only from the paizo store.
I bought like 8 or 9 hardcovers from Frog God games this year... but I bought them direct from their site since they have better sales and had better shipping prices. So none of that shows up in this.
Similarly I just bought a hardcover from Kobold Press and two from Green Ronin via ebay because... again... better prices and better shipping.
Paizo webstore's shipping to Canada is extremely expensive, it's easily the most expensive RPG store overall for shipping - and it usually doesn't have the lowest price for the books either.
Even when I do buy stuff from paizo it is never pdfs alone. I only get pdfs if they are free with a hardcover.
I buy pdf-only stuff - but generally at drive-thru RPG as their search interface is better and I like their library feature better organizationally. Also they offer bundles.... as far as I can tell paizo webstore does not.
So I guess - in conclusion - pdf downloads alone are not really the best measure of popularity IMO, nor is suggesting that publishers that sell more through their own stores or through other retail outlets or kickstarters are not as good as those who sell through Paizo....
Really, my complaint is suggesting these are the most popular 3PP publishers rather than the publishers who sell the most pdfs on paizo's webstore only. It's a small thing but I do like accuracy.
I think a lot of backers would like to hear more often, even if it was literally just like, "yep, still editing."
I am personally fine with their communication for the most part - but I think this one is just late enough that folks that are maybe newer to the company's style and track record are getting anxious.
I am super excited to get my hands on it, and hold no doubts that they will deliver. I'll be honest I am always a bit mystified by folks who seem surprised by kickstarters delivering late. This one still really isn't really outside the realm of reasonable lateness.
Mine all mine...don't touch wrote:
Naw. Got the book of the damned in the one box of this set I picked up and I was like ... boooooo... Not my thing. It's neat looking but I can't see myself using it.
I'm like great, I got a mini worth $10, I'd rather just have the mini worth $2 that I'll actually use. I also got the iron maiden before too... I have bad luck with getting dressing I don't want.
Wish I knew folks locally that collected so I could trade stuff I don't want for things I do.
Alas! Can't please everyone all of the time. I'll live.
Personally, I feel like 3PP are doing a better job than Paizo at creating options for the game at this point... like...
I guess where I am going with this tangent is that I don't see where the impetus is to do a new edition - even if sales are declining - (I haven't seen evidence of this). Even if it was, in fact, the case, I find it hard to believe it is because of the complexity of the ruleset.
If - hypothetically - sales are lower - It's more likely a combination of a number of things:
-folks not really liking Golarian so not buying adventure paths or already having enough of them and no time to run the ones they already own (me at this point on both - I own 5 APs - so definitely gave them a try and I also don't like their vibe).
-new players getting scooped by the newest version of the brand name tabletop game that is synonymous with this hobby instead of checking out the one with the unfortunate, shared-with-an-SUV name that kills its Search Engine Optimization
-Lower quality content, higher cost books. Occult adventures and bestiary 5 were awesome. But Horror Adventures, Inner Sea Races (should have known better than to grab this one), and Villain Codex were all let downs. The price of these books has gone up quite a bit in Canada too. And given that paizo's paper quality and binding is middling at best and always has been - that's led me to go more to 3PP which, oddly, seem to have way higher production values for the most part - or if they are the same or worse, their prices are much lower... $70 for inner sea races (which had nothing new for most races and was literally a copy and paste from the previous race book for faves of mine, like Tengu) or $60 for Advanced Race Compendium (ARC) from Kobold press.... um... I'll go with advanced race compendium (though in reality I will soon own both). I haven't seen the binding on ARC but I have read the PDF and there is way more useful and original crunch in there that is useful in my games...
I guess what I am saying is that even if financials were bad at Paizo (I doubt they are) there are things they could address that issue that don't begin and end with reissuing all their old books with slightly tweaked mechanics.
Milo v3 wrote:
If pathfinder went 2.0, whether tomorrow or in 2020 I can't see myself rebuying everything (or even anything), I just can't. At this point I have more 3PP books than Paizo stuff (and I have almost all the Paizo hardbacks) and there is no way of knowing if it would ever get updated, and honestly, I'd rather buy new stuff than buy the old stuff redone.
I honestly already have enough pathfinder books to play for the rest of my life so... yeah. I mean, Rappan Athuk, Slumbering Tsar, Sword of Air, Northlands Saga... those alone could easily keep me busy for a lot of years. That's just a few of the big adventure books I own... I also own a number of APs.
Pathfinder is the first system I've ever invested heavily in (I started out playing 3.5, but didn't own any books), and I just don't see any need to remake the wheel. There are tons of stories yet to be told and while I agree the core rulebook could use a REORGANIZATION - I don't think the rules really need to change. I personally never get sick of new classes, I buy 3PP books to get EVEN MORE classes and feats and races etc. I love them. So I just can't fathom the "there are too many rules" crowd.
Paizo hasn't even really scratched the surface in terms of providing GM's aids, we could use NPC codexes for each of the class books, for example. I'd definitely buy another monster codex with different monster races/more builds for races in the first book.
Adventures are a great way for Paizo to keep putting out new books without adding tons of options.
I just really don't understand the demand for a new edition. If you don't like the options, don't buy them, don't play with them, etc.
So I added that one thing back into my cart and then the discount got reapplied... weird... So I guess I gotta buy that thing to get the discount, lol.
And now, even though it's a $140 order, the blurb tells me to add $15 to get "first $10 shipping"
And the shipping changed from one $57 package to two packages, one $47 and one $27... for the same 3 things I had before.
I love Paizo but your store is really janky. It makes it infuriating to shop. I was seriously ready to make an order tonight but not now, not paying an extra $50 on my order because I deleted an item from my shopping cart and added it back in and the system decided that means it's a great idea to send my item in 2 packages instead of one.
This. Anyone suggesting that core wizard is weaker than, say, swashbuckler, or kineticist has a pretty flawed analysis.
There are stronger and weaker classes in every book, including the core rule book.
Do I think pathfinder is absolutely balanced? Nope. But I don't think it should be. Perfectly balanced classes end up being overly samey.
The game is not a contest (unless you're running an arena or something) so I don't see why it matters that Bob the barbarian is way stronger than Wendy the witch at level 2, but Wendy is way stronger at level 12.
First of all, most games (judging from sales of adventures - where lower level adventures sell more than higher level) are ending by level 10 or so anyway, so the worst of the caster-martial disparity never becomes an issue.
Second of all, if a GM wants the game to be more balanced they can simply decide to not allow the stronger options or not allow the weaker options.
Or they can choose to restrict which magical items are available - and ensure that the weaker classes get items that boost them more than the stronger classes.
I own almost every Paizo hardback (only missing intrigue, mythic and strategy guide - not interested in these) - I buy a lot of Paizo books. That will end if they bring out a second edition.
I am not going to rebuy all the books. I won't.
They will only be in pathfinder, as the environment books are more rules heavy (they have lots of environmental rules, archetypes etc) in them they don't feel like there is enough meat for 5e and SW - so what they do instead is take the adventures in them and put those adventures into "quests of doom" books for 5e and SW - which is one of the reasons why there are more quests of doom books for 5e and SW than for pathfinder (which only has one).
Marshes and Mountains are going to be the next KS, box set will be later in the year.
GM Rednal wrote:
I think the explanation they gave was that time spent writing updates was time not spent working, doubly so when they had that printing deadline to meet. Though, I've given advice to other companies doing Kickstarters, and my usual suggestion is to update backers every two weeks no matter what. It doesn't have to be a giant update or anything - just a quick "we're still working on this and things are on schedule" is all that's really necessary. XD Takes literally a minute to write. End your Friday with that and you're good.
This, I am used to this with Frog God but I always think... they would probably make an additional 10% on this kickstarter if they sent out a short note every time we broke a stretch goal... mostly just cause it generates excitement and reminds backers to add to their pledges early (thus generating more revenue to break more stretch goals)
I mean I guess it's cause I write emails for a living (essentially) - I don't understand the idea that updates are time consuming - but then again I don't know what the backend of kickstarter updates looks like, so I could be wrong.
That said, I've just come to accept the Frogs are not super spammy on the emails, even if I'd like them to be. I love their work and even though I haven't got any physical product yet from a kickstarter (I've backed 3 now) I trust they will deliver.
honestly I am so glad the NPC books are setting agnostic for the most part. I mean, gods, no problem, fine, that makes sense those are easy to swap out.
But I don't play in Golarian. It's not my cup of tea. I like some of the setting books because they have good ideas and are fun to read - but adding it to NPC books would take away a lot of the utility away since I use them to simplify my life.
My last couple sessions were almost completely run out of the monster codex because my players are overpowered for the module I am running - was really great to be able to swap out the CR1 orcs for stronger ones really easily.
So, thanks for making NPC books setting agnostic. That negative review sealed the deal for me, will be picking this up when I get a bit of coin.
Thanks! I appreciate you taking the time to take a look at it.
I'm sad that there is no contest this year as I had never heard about it before this year but I guess it gives me a chance to practice some more.
I'll try to post another one sometime this week :)
If you want an approximation of shipping, I'd go to frog gods website and put the current edition in your cart, and make like you're going to check out. It will provide a shipping estimate. If you get just the hardcover (no add ons) the shipping price should be pretty close to that. I am guessing in the 20-25 range for Canada.
Yeah things take awhile. I am not going to lie I am also hungry for an update, but I am trusting that the time they are not spending updating us is being spent working on the product. Still moderately irritating but I love the work the Frogs do and I know in the end this is going to be a book I am excited to have on my shelf.
yay found it! This is tempting, gonna be honest wasn't interested in picking this one up any time soon what with my severely expensive Lost Lands addiction, but this cover is soooo nice. I honestly don't understand why this isn't the default cover - it is way better looking.
Anyway, broke right now so gonna have to hope it is available next month.
Befuddled GM wrote:
Yah I am not worried about it getting done, just wondering if there is any timeline for when I might get it into my greedy little hands.
Greg said in July that they expect to be trickling out pdfs in the next month or so, here:
Though he cautioned he didn't have any firm timelines. First one expected is the Tome of Blighted Horrors.
Don't know for sure on the pdf dates either. I figure probably a couple months in advance of the dates I ball parked below, though these will likely be staggered. For instance, ToBH shouldn't be more than a month or two away...
This was what he said re: the physical product:
As for timeline, to make a guess I'd say end of 2016/beginning of 2017. But I don't have concrete data to back that up, just my sense of it. I'm sorry I can't be more specific.
Anyway, my sense of it is they are getting it done as quick as they can while ensuring it meets their high standards of quality.
According to the Bard's gate timeline the army of light defeated Tsar around 300 years ago (3210 IR Tsar defeated - 3400 Rappan Athuk "discovered" - Current year is 3517) . So,even Tar-Barphon happened a lot longer ago than the defeat of Tsar... more than 800 years ago it looks like.
So I'd go with the latter as the former happened much too far in the past.