Just something I wanted to check. Mortals when desperate will often use magic to turn to devils and make deals and whatnot. Is there anything that stops them from turning to angels instead? I figured it might be something like there's less of them, or they're harder to contact. Or they might not be as willing to help.
Yeah that seems fair. Angels save lives, Devils just do whatever crap you're willing* to get ripped off for.
*Or not ;)
Angels seem more inclined to swoop in for deathbed conversions, offering comfort and a better long-term future when people don't have time left to enjoy the pleasures of the Material. Much like getting someone to sell their soul, Pharasma takes a very dim view of Outsiders interfering like this, but these cases still go to trial, with advocates from both sides.
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This line of discussion reminds me of The Blackadder medieval deathbed scene.
People turning to evil for assistance so often does seem really silly. It's not like people don't have things they could offer a good-aligned outsider that's easier to stomach than what an evil one would demand.
Years of service to a Good cause, for example, is something that could be bargained with for a non-evil boon.
I think that part of it is that deals with evil are a classic trope in stories and thus they come to mind more readily. (Both in-universe and out)
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Just something I wanted to check. Mortals when desperate will often use magic to turn to devils and make deals and whatnot. Is there anything that stops them from turning to angels instead? I figured it might be something like there's less of them, or they're harder to contact. Or they might not be as willing to help.
Angels give help to the deserving when it's truly needed... or refuse such help when the refusal would make the petitioner stronger in the long run.
Devils make deals for the unworthy who want shortcuts to their ends. Devils tend to de-emphasize the long-term costs.... or not mention them at all, unless asked carefully.
Good in PF is usually charitable. If you trade for your good deeds they're just neutral. Angels get no benefit. They may offer help because they want to, but not because you offered something in return.
The Outer Plains are fuelled by the souls of the Material Plain. Good Outsiders only want Good souls to come to there Plain. Evil Outsiders also only want Evil souls. So Devils use the "easy" path to power to corrupt the soul to Evil. Good Outsiders show the path to "hard work" to cleanse the soul for Good. All Outsiders that come/interact with the Material Plain are recruiting for there Plain.
A devil went down to Golarion, looking for a soul to steal ...
I agree with most of the other posters, angels wouldn't grant selfish wishes. Although it's not just devils, the Efreeti (LE fire Genie) do so as well.
In the Pathfinder universe, everyone has a natural alignment of Evil. If you're good or neutral and do evil acts, you eventually become evil. If you're evil and do a few good or neutral acts, you remain evil. Evil is the natural resting point for all creatures' alignments.
Devils know this, and know that if they can stop someone's constant push into good or neutrality, they will find their proper resting point at evil.
Angels know this, too, and therefore know that it is a waste of resources to attempt to push someone into good, since they'll just settle back into evil, anyway.
What should be noted is that Devils should only make contracts with lawful individuals so that they end up in Hell when they die (and so they don't break their contracts).
In the Pathfinder universe, everyone has a natural alignment of Evil. If you're good or neutral and do evil acts, you eventually become evil. If you're evil and do a few good or neutral acts, you remain evil. Evil is the natural resting point for all creatures' alignments.
Devils know this, and know that if they can stop someone's constant push into good or neutrality, they will find their proper resting point at evil.
Angels know this, too, and therefore know that it is a waste of resources to attempt to push someone into good, since they'll just settle back into evil, anyway.
What should be noted is that Devils should only make contracts with lawful individuals so that they end up in Hell when they die (and so they don't break their contracts).
Actually I would say most are neutral...some people fall to evil, but there are plenty of cases in the AP's and CS material of people, and even the rare fiend/undead, which has gone from evil to neutral or good. And plenty of people who start neutral but become more good.
And I would say devils probably really don't care much at all about chaos...Devils are incredibly smart and they have millennia experience in drafting fool proof contracts. The vast majority of chaotic folks who sign a contract are not going to wiggle out of it, at least in the long term.
The thing about most RPG settings, and many fantasy works in general, is the central idea that the world is falling to pieces, and thus the 'heroes' are needed to save it from the brink of destruction. This explains why a group of 4-6 good aligned individuals have to defeat 1000's of evil creatures of increasing power scale.
Thus, there are about twice as many gods with the evil domain then there are ones with the good domain.
This of course, goes back to the game's design- it is a war simulation of a small number of 'good' pieces against countless 'evil' ones. Games such as this naturally have more 'evil' content since that has a nice, easily places role as adversaries- everything else is fluff that you only need a little of. Having 10 evil cults gives you maybe 10 sessions of wiping out cults. 10 good cults are just background dressing.
So, sicne the design requires more evil (or at least more evil beings that are active than good)... the angels have their forces stretched a bit thin. They have to stop qlippoth from teaming up with cthulhu in order to kill all mortal life before dropping by at 3 o clock to stop the daily attempt to open 1000 portals to the abadon that would allow the daemons to feast upon countless souls.
Devils can manage, since they can easily make deals with evil forces- either buying them off or threatening to make any battle a 2 front war if they pull a nazi germany to their soviet union. That, along with good general management of their forces, means they don't have to worry about threats too much. So devils have more leeway to drum up business.
You could just as easily ask "how does the mob stay competitive. Souls are the currency, but the game is the same. Good guys, like the police and red cross, by thier very nature, aren't really going to help people cheat the system the same way the mob would.
I just imagine that angels are spread too thin to save lives in every occasion, which is why you turn to evil to bring someone back.
Otherwise there would be a huge cosmic imbalance and whatever.
I just imagine that angels are spread too thin to save lives in every occasion, which is why you turn to evil to bring someone back.
Otherwise there would be a huge cosmic imbalance and whatever.
That is probably the answer you knew already.
So Good shares.And now the pool is thin because Good shared with everybody.
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The desperate seek quick assistance, and often lack means. Evil is willing to offer quick assistance, and the upfront costs are usually low. Evil is like the predatory balloon mortgage. Same day decision. Bad credit, no problem. Payments are only $150/month... Until the fifth year when they go to $850.
Good on the other hand is often ponderous and demanding. Good works at its own pace, and usually only helps those it sees as deserving. Good is more like the traditional bank mortgage experience. Your credit and income must be excellent, it'll take them about four weeks to reach a final decision, and if you are approved you can expect to pay back a stable amount for the next 30 years.
Heck, I think that is explicitly stated as the best selling point for one of the archdevils, Moloch I think- the most responsive customer service out of any deity.
You want your village saved? Sure, but you gotta damn your soul to be part of my army.
They slap a 45% import tariff on goods from Tian Xia.
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Coming at this from a completely different direction:
The devils are more in need of the souls/help of mortals than the angels are, because they are engaging in hierarchical power struggles within Hell itself. And demons are doing the same thing within the Abyss, only more so.
So the whole risk/reward structure is different. They *have* to produce, or they'll be outpaced by Bob from Hell Level 8. So they're more willing to take chances on making deals with unproven up and comers.
Angels don't have that kind of pressure, so they can wait around for someone who is perfect.
I just imagine that angels are spread too thin to save lives in every occasion, which is why you turn to evil to bring someone back.
Otherwise there would be a huge cosmic imbalance and whatever.
Angels might also say your good dead buddy is either enjoying thier eternal reward in paradise or has already become an archon and is doing more good in thier present state.
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People turning to evil for assistance so often does seem really silly. It's not like people don't have things they could offer a good-aligned outsider that's easier to stomach than what an evil one would demand.
Years of service to a Good cause, for example, is something that could be bargained with for a non-evil boon.
I think that part of it is that deals with evil are a classic trope in stories and thus they come to mind more readily. (Both in-universe and out)
Supply and demand. A devil can offer that which an angel will not.
Me: "I don't want to die. Help me."
Angel: "It's your time."
Devil: "Okay, but it's going to cost you."
Me: "I want stuff. And things!"
Angel: "That stuff belongs to someone else. Earn it."
Devil: "Sounds good. Just scratch my back and it's yours."
Me: "I wish so-and-so was dead."
Angel: "That's not very nice."
Devil: "Can do. Sign here..."
The point here is that the things an angel is willing to do/give is a subset of what a devil is willing to do/give. Open market versus black market. Sure, going to the nearby convenience store works when you want a bag of chips, and you certainly wouldn't ask your friendly neighborhood drug-dealer to get some Doritos for you, but when it's a bag of cocaine you're after... you might want to skip 7-11.
So the whole risk/reward structure is different. They *have* to produce, or they'll be outpaced by Bob from Hell Level 8.
Hate that guy. He's been angling for my sweet corner cubicle since day one...
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So the whole risk/reward structure is different. They *have* to produce, or they'll be outpaced by Bob from Hell Level 8.Hate that guy. He's been angling for my sweet corner cubicle since day one...
He keeps stealing my red stapler.
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So the whole risk/reward structure is different. They *have* to produce, or they'll be outpaced by Bob from Hell Level 8.Hate that guy. He's been angling for my sweet corner cubicle since day one...
He totally wants your not corner office bro. The lack of view of eternal torture and hell fire makes everyone jealous.
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He totally wants your not corner office bro. The lack of view of eternal torture and hell fire makes everyone jealous.So the whole risk/reward structure is different. They *have* to produce, or they'll be outpaced by Bob from Hell Level 8.Hate that guy. He's been angling for my sweet corner cubicle since day one...
You know it, Brophamet. I can still smell the brimstone though. Smells like... victory...
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He keeps stealing my red stapler.So the whole risk/reward structure is different. They *have* to produce, or they'll be outpaced by Bob from Hell Level 8.Hate that guy. He's been angling for my sweet corner cubicle since day one...
And unfortunately, we work for Asmodeoco, so burning the building down would be superfluous.
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Supply and demand. A devil can offer that which an angel will not.Me: "I don't want to die. Help me."
Angel: "It's your time."
Devil: "Okay, but it's going to cost you."Me: "I want stuff. And things!"
Angel: "That stuff belongs to someone else. Earn it."
Devil: "Sounds good. Just scratch my back and it's yours."Me: "I wish so-and-so was dead."
Angel: "That's not very nice."
Devil: "Can do. Sign here..."The point here is that the things an angel is willing to do/give is a subset of what a devil is willing to do/give. Open market versus black market. Sure, going to the nearby convenience store works when you want a bag of chips, and you certainly wouldn't ask your friendly neighborhood drug-dealer to get some Doritos for you, but when it's a bag of cocaine you're after... you might want to skip 7-11.
Weird. A Paladin (more or less) is required to help those people that the Angels won't. In other words, he's expected to be more good than a being made entirely out of good.
Supply and demand. A devil can offer that which an angel will not.Me: "I don't want to die. Help me."
Angel: "It's your time."
Devil: "Okay, but it's going to cost you."Me: "I want stuff. And things!"
Angel: "That stuff belongs to someone else. Earn it."
Devil: "Sounds good. Just scratch my back and it's yours."Me: "I wish so-and-so was dead."
Angel: "That's not very nice."
Devil: "Can do. Sign here..."The point here is that the things an angel is willing to do/give is a subset of what a devil is willing to do/give. Open market versus black market. Sure, going to the nearby convenience store works when you want a bag of chips, and you certainly wouldn't ask your friendly neighborhood drug-dealer to get some Doritos for you, but when it's a bag of cocaine you're after... you might want to skip 7-11.
Weird. A Paladin (more or less) is required to help those people that the Angels won't. In other words, he's expected to be more good than a being made entirely out of good.
and those paladins are the rare few, and often off crusading in the world scar. Same exact problem: not enough supply for the demand.