
The.Vortex |
2 people marked this as FAQ candidate. 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Hello everyone,
For reference a few links first:
Constrict
Trample
Rend
Natural Attacks
Amulet of Mighty Fists - This amulet grants an enhancement bonus of +1 to +5 on attack and damage rolls with unarmed attacks and natural weapons.
(Greater) Magic Fang - "Alternatively, you may imbue all of the creature's natural weapons with a +1 enhancement bonus (regardless of your caster level)."
Damage Reduction - "A creature with this special quality ignores damage from most weapons and natural attacks."
Constrict, Trample and Rend are Special Attacks, and each of them has their damage based on a natural attack of the creature. The AoMF and GMF increase Damage to all natural weapons. Does that increase increase the damage of Constrict, Trample or Rend?
And if not (because they are special attacks, not natural weapons), does damage reduction apply since they are, as per the previous statement, NOT natural attacks?
Or is there a distinction between natural attacks and natural weapons? If you look for natural attacks, you find the natural weapons listed, while natural weapon is not explained anywhere and the list of natural attacks does not list the special attacks either.
If the AoMF/GMF do not count and Damage Reduction does apply, is there any way to get through even the simplest damage reductions like magic with those special attacks?

Tyrant Lizard King |

Natural Weapons and Natural Attack are relative. A Claw attack is an attack with a Natural Weapon while also being considered a Natural Attack.
So for those special attacks; Trample, Rend and Constrict, they say that they cause additional damage... usually equal to the damage of a related natural attack. The key wording is "deals additional damage" not "deals Claw/Slam/Bite Damage". However, Rake says you gain "additional natural attacks". So a Rake is 2 extra Claw attacks and Claw attacks gain the benefit of GMF and AoMF for sure. I am uncertain about it applying to the Constrict, Rend and Trample damage but I'm leaning towards no.
Damage Reduction will have a descriptor of what kind of damage can bypass it, if any. So DR5/magic means that any physical damage that has at least a +1 enhancement bonus or is considered magic for overcoming DR it would ignore this DR. Silver and Cold Iron are bypassed by +3 or higher, Adamantine: +4 or more and Alignments: +5.

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Damage reduction reduce the damage of normal attacks, not natural attacks. If yo read the whole description of DR you find that it don't stop damage from spells, energy attacks or energy drain.
So rend, trample etc. are normal attacks and affected by DR.
Edit:: description of DR taken from the Glossary of the CRB, the Bestiary say "A creature with this special quality ignores damage from most weapons and natural attacks.". As the CRB is the basic rulebook I feel it supersede the Bestiary.

The.Vortex |
Doesn't sound like a consensus here, either. Tyrant Lizard King says only Rake benefits from AoMF and is unsure about the others, Java Man says they all benefit from it except for Rend.
And I am unsure what Diego Rossi is saying, really ;)
@Tyrant Lizard King: I am well aware how DR works against weapon attacks. The question here is: Do Contrict, Trample, etc. count as attacks with natural weapons and thus benefit from AoMF. And if they do NOT count as such, is their damage subject to damage reduction? If so, how can you bypass DR with those speical attacks at all?

Java Man |

All physical damage, even from spells that have physical type, is subject to DR, none of these abilities are energy damage, so DR applies.
To further explain my thinking, your damage for a natural weapon is increased by AoMF, so if an ability tells you to use your natural weapon damage, this should include the bonus. Rend is not a natural weapon in and of itself, it is a rider tacked onto natural weapons in certain circumstances, similiar to sneak attack, so AoMF has already boosted base claws, no double dipping it.

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And I am unsure what Diego Rossi is saying, really ;)
I am replying to this:
And if not (because they are special attacks, not natural weapons), does damage reduction apply since they are, as per the previous statement, NOT natural attacks?
DR applies to all attacks that deal damage that isn't:
- energy damage- negative levels
- spells (and some are affected, read the description)
- touch attacks

Tyrant Lizard King |

I cannot find anywhere in the rules that covers how special attacks work against DR so this would be my interpretation of the rules, not an official ruling...
I would say first that DR would apply to the special attack damage as it is physical damage, so none of these would bypass it by default. So which of these would GMF or AoMF apply in order to bypass DR?
Constrict: No
I think this because it is listed as bludgeoning damage and not any specific natural attack. Yes, the damage is compared to the damage of the natural attack that initiated the grapple but it is not that natural attack. For example, a Constrictor Snake's bite attack(B,P,S) would be affected as normal but wrapping it's body around an enemy to crush them(B) isn't considered a natural attack/unarmed strike.
Trample: Yes
Trample says "damage equal to the trampling creature’s slam damage". Does the creature have a Slam attack? Whether it does or does not, Trample gives it a special Slam attack as part of it's movement that's damage is automatically inflicted. The creature moves and everything in it's path is subject to this Slam damage.
Rend: ?
This could be handled in 3 different ways.
#1: The additional damage is not a natural attack so does not benefit from GMF or AoMF.
#2: The "additional" damage is damage that is added to the Claw attack that initiated the Rend. Being part of the Claw damage it would bypass the DR but not be directly boosted by GMF or AoMF to prevent double dipping. In other words, Claw, normally 1d6+ STR +1(enhancement), gains the Rend damage(1d6+ 1.5 STR)on top... making the Claw/Rend attack 2d6+ 2.5 STR +1(enhancement).
#3: Rend damage is considered Claw damage that automatically "hits" when the condition is met(usually hitting with 2 Claw attacks in the same round), therefore gaining the benefits of magic bonuses separately.
Rake: Yes
2 additional Claw attacks under certain conditions.(Pounce or successful maintain grapple)
Swallow Whole: Yes
"it swallows its prey, and the opponent takes bite damage."
I know some would disagree with these interpretations which is fine. Hopefully someone can clarify any of these that are unclear/unacceptable with a more knowledgeable interpretation.

The.Vortex |
Thanks for the additional details everyone. I can see the reasoning behind each of your statements. The consensus seems to be that DR applies. There doesn't seem to be a sonsensus as to wether GMF / AoMF does apply, or to which of the attacks it does apply.
I marked the initial post for FAQ in the hopes of getting a definitive answer from someone who has the power to give such :)