So I got my archer inquisitor to lvl 8 and the swash/investigator is up to level 3... kinda love/hate it atm so debating on going with my original idea of a occultist. Thinking a warrior type with a great sword, transmutation first and foremost with a liberal helping of leadblade and shield when I can. At least when looking at the battle host I'm finding that Focus powers and mental focus take priority pretty quickly. So leaning towards a half elf for the favored bonus. Since this is for PFS I'm thinking about taking skill focus to linguistics along with orator.
That said I'm wondering if I'm losing too much going battle host in ways of utility.I admit the big selling point for me though is you dont have to worry about other implements other than the one. (Probably plate armor) But getting more schools will give me more options...
What is everyone else's opinion?
Battle Host gets you a free item of at most around 1650 GP (masterwork full plate), a bunch of feats, and a daily+ spiritual ally and swift action physical buff.
What you're giving up is 2 entire implement schools, your really useful UMD and object reading skills, and your contact outsider skill that's mostly fluff. At 9th level a vanilla occultist knows 16 spells, a battle host would know 8, and 1st-9th is a significant part of your character arc.
I find in practice people tend to overvalue the free item (you can just buy full plate later, it's not that much in the grand scheme of things). So I guess the question for your character is how much are you going to need more feats for your combat style and how much are you going to miss all that spell casting. The vanilla Occultist can be plenty martial, though you're starved for feats if you want to be an archer. But if you just want to grab a polearm and power attack with it, then I think you're giving up more than you get with the battle host.
Battle host is fun to play, but their spell choices are extremely limited. You have to build them wisely.
swash/investigator is up to level 3
these take some time to get going. You're doing a Dex to damage build, which normally takes time to get going, and on an investigator, that takes time before it gains access to all it's buffs. Also it depends a lot on how you allocated your stats. If you don't build for combat then he's going to be useless in combat.
Not saying you're doing it wrong, but that studied combat and mutagens are nice buffs for investigators and you're at the level just before those.
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That said I'm wondering if I'm losing too much going battle host in ways of utility.I admit the big selling point for me though is you dont have to worry about other implements other than the one. (Probably plate armor) But getting more schools will give me more options...What is everyone else's opinion?
Having multiple Implements isn't usually a problem since all the Schools except Conjuration have wearable options. I personally don't like being locked in to one particular item for all time the way that Battle Host does.
My suggestion would be the Haunt Collector archetype from Horror Adventures. It is powerful, flexible, and flavorful. It is by far my favorite Occultist archetype.
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In defense of the Battle Host, I find that it is really handy for the mental focus-hungry implements, like the Divination and Transmutation ones - you don't lose as much if you are going to be specialised, anyway.
At level 12, you are looking at a max of 12 (Level) +6 (FCB)+INT (anywhere from 4-8 at this point, I'd imagine) +2 (Extra Mental Focus) = 24-28 points.
In order to get the max juice out of the Divination implement, you'd probably put at least 9 points in it for the permanent see invisibility + darkvision, maybe 10 for the extra +1.
That leaves you with 14-18 points. At level 12, the Transmutation passive gives you a free +6 belt for 9 mental focus.. leaving you with 5-9 points to spend in your third implement school. Doubling up on Transmutation then effectively gives you another +6 belt, and you've directed all your mental focus.
I'm not claiming that it's the most ideal way of doing it, but what I like about the Battle Host is that it ensures that you aren't spread thin if you actually want to get some use out of your passive abilities, because it doesn't after all change the baseline mental focus mechanic.
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But one of the advantages of being an elf is that you get 50% more mental focus than non-elves. So it's easier for a half-elf or elf to fund focus hungry implements like divination, so you're much less strapped to fund your implements.
I played an Occultist who was an elf up to 15 recently, and at the end I had 34 points of mental focus to divvy up: 12 to divination (for 60' blindsense), 9 for transmutation (for a +6 belt), 8 for abjuration (for a +4 resistance bonus), with 5 left over to divvy up between the other schools with less impressive implement powers. So this is doable. Sure, a battle host would have 4 schools by level 15 so they'd have all those same resonant abilities, but there's a fair number of useful spells in Conjuration and Illusion so it would be tough for me to pick between the two.
My first Occultist was a Tome Eater, and while I never got to eat any scrolls or do any counterspelling, I can say that I didn't miss the features he replaced. Pretty much the only upside the Tome Eater has over Battle Host is that he starts with an extra implement. You're really gonna want that new implement. I found that a melee Occultist really only needs two or three schools, the rest is pure bonus. In the end, my only regret is that I should've taken Divination as a school, it's really pretty good. Getting bonuses on saves or to-hits is pretty rad.
As far as Battle Host is concerned, replacing Magic Item Skill and Object Reading with strict downgrades hurts, but not majorly. The bonus feats, Spirit Warrior, and Heroic Splendor are pretty much all straight upgrades over the abilities they replace. I'd say that makes the BH a lot better than the vanilla Occultist.
Keep in mind, you still gain access to more schools of magic than Mental Focus. Focus on one or two schools, and only put a few points in the others if you need to. The Transmutation resonant power eats up pretty much all of your Mental Focus at lower levels, and about half at higher levels. And it's worth it, don't get me wrong, but that means you have to neglect other schools. If you want a free Cloak of Resistance, that'll also cost you quite some points. And don't get me started on Divination; that school pretty much wants all of your points.
In summary: Battle Host is pretty great. It'll suck the first few levels, but once you get some more spells known, you're gonna start kicking ass.
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Sorry I'm not so familiar with PFS, are Half-Elves able to take the Full-Elf Favoured Class Alternates, because the Elf-Occultist Favoured is what you want. Or be an Full-Elf and pick up the Forlorn alternate racial trait(Which grants you Skill Focus) ?
Overall I often find the Battle Host is pretty much losing Magic circles and magic item skill, for combat feats. So it basically comes down to: Is what you are doing with 1-2 extra combat feats better than magic circles and universal UMD?
My personal opinion is "No-way" but everyone's mileage vary.
I find for a Melee Occultist the Reliquarian Archtype much more useful. Domains are crazy diverse some might not be so great when replacing an implement- Others Domains I'd drop whole class features for. The best part of the Reliquarian Implement is it works 100% of the time with no MF investment. That certainly saves on worrying how much MF to invest each day. Also sometimes far better spells lists that aren't tied down to a school.
People often don't like the MAD problem that comes with Reliquarian, but in a Meleer's world that's not even an issue. 90% of your spells and Focus Power come from Abj, Trans, & Div and are bluffs, No-save, or use caster level checks.
So don't worry about Int. Ever. Just get 16 Int by level 10 or 13-14 for PFS which won't see past that level anyway, and pump the rest into Wisdom.
PROVIDED there is a domain suiting your needs, don't take the Archetype blindly.
But one of the advantages of being an elf is that you get 50% more mental focus than non-elves. So it's easier for a half-elf or elf to fund focus hungry implements like divination, so you're much less strapped to fund your implements.
I played an Occultist who was an elf up to 15 recently, and at the end I had 34 points of mental focus to divvy up: 12 to divination (for 60' blindsense), 9 for transmutation (for a +6 belt), 8 for abjuration (for a +4 resistance bonus), with 5 left over to divvy up between the other schools with less impressive implement powers. So this is doable. Sure, a battle host would have 4 schools by level 15 so they'd have all those same resonant abilities, but there's a fair number of useful spells in Conjuration and Illusion so it would be tough for me to pick between the two.
Yes, exactly. My point is that even as an elf/half-elf, if you want to get the most mileage out of certain implements, you will need a ton of mental focus, to the point where the implement trade out doesn't seem like such a big deal.
(I mean, my hypothetical divination/transmutation/transmutation example at level 12 has 26 int, 6 extra mental focus from being an elf, and the feat extra mental focus - and still barely manages to max out the three implements that it carries (and just wait for level 13, when you'll want 12 points in divination, leaving you one short, even with all that investment.)
So yes, you really want to have access to the Elf FCB, because it feels like what makes the difference between having just enough to get by, or spreading yourself too thin for certain implements.
This thread has actually inspired me to make a Battle Host. I think I'll model him after one of my Dark Souls characters, and thus throw caution and reason to the wind. Currently my plan is to go Elf for the FCB, have my bond be to a Curved Elven Sword and go with Transmutation as my first school (lead blades is a great spell and frees me from having to put Impact on my weapon), followed by Evocation as my second. This'll mean that I don't get the nice defenses bonuses from Divination (which I'll probably take at 10) or abjuration, but it will let me go balls to the walls on offense. With a 15-point buy, I'll have 15/9/11/20/7/7 after factoring in racials (will probably boost STR or DEX at 4, but otherwise will always be using my transmutation mod on STR). That means I'll have weak defensive stats (-1 to AC and initiative until level 4, and no bonus health from CON for a while) but very solid melee attack/damage and quite strong spell damage (really helpful when the enemy has DR/SR and you're easily able to switch between damage types). Just to further risk it for the biscuit, I'll probably use Permanency and Enlarge Person on myself to combo with Lead Blades, as well as pick up Vital Strike at level 8, and put most of my other feats into bumping my spellcasting/maneuverability.
Why is everyone so hyped about Lead Blades? It's nice if you can use it as a pre-combat buff, but in combat you'll lose more DPR by casting it than just attacking. And even then, the difference in average damage is negligible, unless you're already stacking damage dice somehow (like Druids tend to do). I chose Liberating Command for my first-level Transmutation spell, and I've never regretted it in PFS. Enemies with nasty grapple builds, Black Tentacles, and Swallow Whole are pretty much negated by these. Sure, the spell may have lost its lustre with the relatively cheap talismans that do the same thing, but if you're not packing those, you're glad someone's bringing LC. And it saves a lot in action economy.
That's not to say Lead Blades isn't good or powerful in its own right, I just think that in this situation, I'd prefer the Command.
Yeah I really like the vibe of the class was thinking about it before the investigator. @Chess I agree the investigator will be fun...but sometimes you just want to hit something really hard ya know :)
I just realized I missed a important part of the class..that you can use the invested power in the item to fuel the powers. (thought you had to invest in transmutation and then keep some points aside for say sudden speed. That helps a lot. I need to get a few minutes to look at extra options vs specializing but really seems like focusing on the battle host might be be a good direction for what I'm aiming to do.
Why is everyone so hyped about Lead Blades? It's nice if you can use it as a pre-combat buff, but in combat you'll lose more DPR by casting it than just attacking. And even then, the difference in average damage is negligible, unless you're already stacking damage dice somehow (like Druids tend to do). I chose Liberating Command for my first-level Transmutation spell, and I've never regretted it in PFS. Enemies with nasty grapple builds, Black Tentacles, and Swallow Whole are pretty much negated by these. Sure, the spell may have lost its lustre with the relatively cheap talismans that do the same thing, but if you're not packing those, you're glad someone's bringing LC. And it saves a lot in action economy.
That's not to say Lead Blades isn't good or powerful in its own right, I just think that in this situation, I'd prefer the Command.
Well the point of Lead Blades is that you bump up your base damage dice so you can capitalize on it with Vital Strike and crits. That's why I like the Curved Elven Sword. It's got an 18-20/x2 crit threat, so with keen you get 15-20/x2 which means critting fairly often. Combine that with Enlarge Person (bump the damage up another size) and vital strike and suddenly you're doing a lot of damage on a single swing. Normally it would even out between than and just swinging more often with iteratives, but factoring in how many buffs are only active for one attack means damage dice can matter quite a bit. I've also considered taking a single level dip in Titan Fighter for access to another size increase, but IDK if it'd be worth the -4 to attack.
I agree with Quentin, buffs are nice if you get them off before combat. But the occultist has so many standard action, short duration buffs that you really can't use all or most of them in a fight.
vital strike is not worth it unless highly investing into it, and lead blades is nice if you had it up before a fight, but not worth using in a fight.
lead blades round 1 and vital round 2 is getting 1 attack in 2 rounds.
Move and attack/ready attack and then full attack is getting off 3 attacks.
vital strike is not worth it unless highly investing into it, and lead blades is nice if you had it up before a fight, but not worth using in a fight.
lead blades round 1 and vital round 2 is getting 1 attack in 2 rounds.
Move and attack/ready attack and then full attack is getting off 3 attacks.
Yes, but say I am large (from permanent Enlarge Person, which I plan on using) elf using my large Elven Curved Blade. With Lead Blades, I'm doing 3d8 base weapon damage versus 2d8, then combined with vital strike I'm doing 6d8 versus 2d8. So in those 3 attacks, you would have added your weapon damage up to what I did with my one vital strike (yours would be slightly higher given the multiple instances of strength bonus, but...) with the real kicker being able to use all of those sweet, short duration (single attack) buffs to ensure that your attack lands, combined with more powerful crits (6d8 vs. 4d8). Essentially I'm going for large, single attack encounter-enders, so sitting back and using Lead Blades at the start of the fight (allowing any other martials in the party to set up flanking) is perfectly fine by me.
Additionally, Lead Blades/Vital Strike ends up pulling ahead in fights where the opponent has high AC, causing your secondary iteratives to miss more often.
lead blades is nice if you had it up before a fight, but not worth using in a fight.
If you're a combat oriented occultist, you're pretty much going to use Legacy Weapon (with its 1 minute duration) on the first round of every fight anyway, since taking Bane of whatever you're fighting is one of your best tricks. But once you can afford to drop 35k gold on a Rod, you can get a quickened spell off on that same turn, and lead blades/gravity bow is an option for this, but in my experience I would usually lead with quickened Haste instead. If someone else casts haste, mirror image as well as lead blades/gravity bow are good choices for your swift rod cast.
But the Battle Host probably won't have Mirror Image before level 14, if you lead with the standard trio of Transmutation, Abjuration, and Divination in some order.
lead blades is nice if you had it up before a fight, but not worth using in a fight.If you're a combat oriented occultist, you're pretty much going to use Legacy Weapon (with its 1 minute duration) on the first round of every fight anyway, since taking Bane of whatever you're fighting is one of your best tricks. But once you can afford to drop 35k gold on a Rod, you can get a quickened spell off on that same turn, and lead blades/gravity bow is an option for this, but in my experience I would usually lead with quickened Haste instead. If someone else casts haste, mirror image as well as lead blades/gravity bow are good choices for your swift rod cast.
But the Battle Host probably won't have Mirror Image before level 14, if you lead with the standard trio of Transmutation, Abjuration, and Divination in some order.
Well it's a trade-off. Before level 6, it makes sense to use Lead Blades instead of Legacy Weapon (since the +1 bonus is < the extra 1d8 of damage) unless you buff up before the fight. Late game (level 12 and beyond) you can add both Impact and some other bonus to the weapon with the same action, or you can just pay for the weapon to have Impact on it permanently, and then use all of your Legacy Weapon for whatever else each combat.
Personally, I used the Legacy Weapon special ability for Bane almost all the time, since 2+2d6 damage is better than most anything else you're going to get (this doesn't work so well when you're fighting a bunch of different kinds of things). Impact might just be worth paying the money for since you can only get one special ability from legacy weapon, so the rest of the Legacy Weapon bonus caps off at the +5 limit for enhancement bonuses (which is +3 at level 12).
Personally, I used the Legacy Weapon special ability for Bane almost all the time, since 2+2d6 damage is better than most anything else you're going to get (this doesn't work so well when you're fighting a bunch of different kinds of things). Impact might just be worth paying the money for since you can only get one special ability from legacy weapon, so the rest of the Legacy Weapon bonus caps off at the +5 limit for enhancement bonuses (which is +3 at level 12).
I agree that Bane is definitely better in most cases, but until you can use it (which won't be until either level 6 or until you put a +1 enhancement bonus on your weapon) Lead Blades is a better use of a standard action.
I agree that Bane is definitely better in most cases, but until you can use it (which won't be until either level 6 or until you put a +1 enhancement bonus on your weapon) Lead Blades is a better use of a standard action.
Entirely dependent on when you get a reliable source of your two spells (Lead Blades/Enlarge person) - and presumably someone else casting one on you until you get Permanency. Which you might be able to generously attain at 7th level but likely later. If you do not have Permanency or a secondary caster, the Lead/Enlarge is eating two standards actions all the way until 8th (ish).
Until then Enlarge Person is actually is a far better spell selection if your goal is for damage. It does everything lead Blades does, same casting time, same duration, plus reach, Str bonus, CMD, and may be cast on allies from a distance when the need arises.If you are worrying about lower levels Enlarge is your spell.
Permanency is another place where the vanilla occultist comes out ahead of the battle host. The vanilla Occultist is absolutely the best at UMD (esp. with the pragmatic activator trait; my level 15 occultist a +35 UMD mod), so all you need is scrolls, so this is a DIY project for the vanilla occultist.
The Battle Host only gets a UMD bonus for weapons, armor, and shields. I can't honestly remember the last time I had to roll UMD for a weapon or suit of armor.
enlarge person takes 1 round to cast, lead blades is only a standard action.
Size alteration is a standard though
Yes I'm reviving this since I'm back to debating on the (haunt collector) occultist vs battle host. One problem with the occultist is the points only go so far, the battle host would limit me but since I'm probably gonna go heavy in transmutation and abjuration. Just curious if anything has changed
Have you seen the panoply options for Occultists, especially trappings of the warrior? That's the strongest melee option, and you have to pick transmutation and abjuration as your first two schools if you go trappings of the warrior, then pick up the panoply at 2nd level.
Sadly it is for pfs.. I'm still disappointed they never allowed it. Seriously there are stronger things.. would it be so bad to give a sword and board occultist a full bab?
Too bad!
I also like the psychodermist archetype, but it only becomes exceptional at melee combat after 8th level when the favored enemy option kicks in for specific creatures you've killed and prepared for.