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Being inclusive is a good thing so whenever it is possible and done well then it should be celebrated. However, I have noticed that in Golarion, which attempts to be much more inclusive than other gaming worlds, there is little to no mentioning or support of Hispanic, Meso American or Native American cultures other than putting them on another continent. I wonder if these are deliberate choices? For example, why not include some archetypes that would nod to the diversity of cultures, perhaps as a Columbian Exchange in gaming terms, of the cultures of the New World? There are some very good and well done correlations between Earth cultures and civilizations and those found in Golarion.
The comment might be made that Paizo is a business and items should make money. True. The example often given is that the Asian culture supplements have not done so well. I think that there is a difference though in not making a product and respecting that part of the fan base without making money and not making an effort to show an inclusive nature of the world.
Can every culture on the Earth be represented? Of course not? However, major cultures and civilizations on Earth have correlations in Golarion, save Meso and Native and Hispanic American cultures.
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Being inclusive is a good thing so whenever it is possible and done well then it should be celebrated. However, I have noticed that in Golarion, which attempts to be much more inclusive than other gaming worlds, there is little to no mentioning or support of Hispanic, Meso American or Native American cultures other than putting them on another continent. I wonder if these are deliberate choices? For example, why not include some archetypes that would nod to the diversity of cultures, perhaps as a Columbian Exchange in gaming terms, of the cultures of the New World? There are some very good and well done correlations between Earth cultures and civilizations and those found in Golarion.
The comment might be made that Paizo is a business and items should make money. True. The example often given is that the Asian culture supplements have not done so well. I think that there is a difference though in not making a product and respecting that part of the fan base without making money and not making an effort to show an inclusive nature of the world.
Can every culture on the Earth be represented? Of course not? However, major cultures and civilizations on Earth have correlations in Golarion, save Meso and Native and Hispanic American cultures.
I would recommend Distant Shores, which has a kind of algonquin (i guess) city-state.
Creative Director
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There's a large amount of native american inspiration in the Shoanti (I created the Shoanti in my homebrew ages ago in a specific attempt to broaden my game's diversity, and looked to Native American and Inuit traditions to help build them up). It's not the ONLY inspiration, of course, but it's the primary one.
We don't currently have a significant Spanish culture analog in the world. There's some elements of it in Varisians, but not so much that it's obvious. That one's more subtle, and has a fair mix of eastern european in it as well (that element ended up being more obvious in the final product, but there's a fair amount of Spanish inspiration inside Varisans as well if you know where to look).
Arcadia (which we haven't significantly developed yet) has a lot of Native and Meso American culture stuff going on there.
We can't do everything at once, is basically what it comes down to, nor does it make sense to include everything. It's something we'll continue to work toward while simultaneously creating stories for folks to enjoy.
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We don't currently have a significant Spanish culture analog in the world. There's some elements of it in Varisians, but not so much that it's obvious. That one's more subtle, and has a fair mix of eastern european in it as well (that element ended up being more obvious in the final product, but there's a fair amount of Spanish inspiration inside Varisans as well if you know where to look).
There is enough of it that my group, made up of northern New Mexican hispanics, immediately adopted the Varisians as the group of people that were like us. We have grown their culture to match ours more closely without having to remove anything that was already there. They are the group that nearly all of us default to in building characters now because we feel like we are playing our own people. So while the eastern European influences are there and we have made some additions, I wouldn't say that the Spanish is hard to find or that you have to look very hard to find it.
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It's not unreasonable that cultures can meet and interact without violence. Intermingling and the exchange and embracing of ideas and cultural norms between the groups over generations can lead to a later culture made up of elements of both of those cultures further down the road. While the culture we have where I am from does have a very awful history that doesn't mean that a similar one in a fictional world has to get there the same way.
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I know Paizo doesn't disclose raw sales totals, but did Distant Shores sell well enough that we could see some of these new cultures (or peeks at them anyway) in Distant Shores, Vol. II?
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Mostly Africa. There's a bit of Mesoamerica too, and a whole bunch of generic pulp-jungle.
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There's a large amount of native american inspiration in the Shoanti (I created the Shoanti in my homebrew ages ago in a specific attempt to broaden my game's diversity, and looked to Native American and Inuit traditions to help build them up). It's not the ONLY inspiration, of course, but it's the primary one.
We don't currently have a significant Spanish culture analog in the world. There's some elements of it in Varisians, but not so much that it's obvious. That one's more subtle, and has a fair mix of eastern european in it as well (that element ended up being more obvious in the final product, but there's a fair amount of Spanish inspiration inside Varisans as well if you know where to look).
Arcadia (which we haven't significantly developed yet) has a lot of Native and Meso American culture stuff going on there.
We can't do everything at once, is basically what it comes down to, nor does it make sense to include everything. It's something we'll continue to work toward while simultaneously creating stories for folks to enjoy.
Thank you for this but the Shoanti do not really look Native American in the way that the iconic psyhic looks to be from India. Perhaps an iconic that favors some of the Native American/Meso American cultures would be a start? I think that the way the iconics have been presented have been presented has been respectable to the cultures that they represent.
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We don't currently have a significant Spanish culture analog in the world. There's some elements of it in Varisians, but not so much that it's obvious. That one's more subtle, and has a fair mix of eastern european in it as well (that element ended up being more obvious in the final product, but there's a fair amount of Spanish inspiration inside Varisans as well if you know where to look).There is enough of it that my group, made up of northern New Mexican hispanics, immediately adopted the Varisians as the group of people that were like us. We have grown their culture to match ours more closely without having to remove anything that was already there. They are the group that nearly all of us default to in building characters now because we feel like we are playing our own people. So while the eastern European influences are there and we have made some additions, I wouldn't say that the Spanish is hard to find or that you have to look very hard to find it.
The litmus test then is this: Red or green?
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It's not unreasonable that cultures can meet and interact without violence. Intermingling and the exchange and embracing of ideas and cultural norms between the groups over generations can lead to a later culture made up of elements of both of those cultures further down the road. While the culture we have where I am from does have a very awful history that doesn't mean that a similar one in a fictional world has to get there the same way.
True!
One of the critiques for example is that in Dragonlance, Goldmoon was Que-Shu (Native American) in name only not so much in looks.
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The litmus test then is this: Red or green?We don't currently have a significant Spanish culture analog in the world. There's some elements of it in Varisians, but not so much that it's obvious. That one's more subtle, and has a fair mix of eastern european in it as well (that element ended up being more obvious in the final product, but there's a fair amount of Spanish inspiration inside Varisans as well if you know where to look).There is enough of it that my group, made up of northern New Mexican hispanics, immediately adopted the Varisians as the group of people that were like us. We have grown their culture to match ours more closely without having to remove anything that was already there. They are the group that nearly all of us default to in building characters now because we feel like we are playing our own people. So while the eastern European influences are there and we have made some additions, I wouldn't say that the Spanish is hard to find or that you have to look very hard to find it.
"Or"? Christmas please.
I got a dry ice packed box of green from my mom in the mail today (living in WA now so my access to it is very limited now)!
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My parents house is in Espanola (La Mesilla) and that's where I grew up, but I went to school, had my first job, etc in Pojoaque so I usually tell people I am from Pojoaque. I went to UNM and stayed in Albuquerque until I came out here.
This is mostly off topic though, so it may be better to continue this somewhere else, possibly here.
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I started a companion thread to this one, since it's probably easier to do something like Distant Shores than a gazetteer focused on one area.
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Contributor
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It is even more difficult to find a Celtic analog in Golarion :-(
As I noted elsewhere, I suspect Iobaria plays this role. ^_^
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Much like you couldn't really have an African-American analogue without the slave trade and slavery. You can have African analogues, certainly, like you could have Native American analogues of various kinds.
I looked at Sargava with an eye towards making it a more Haiti-like colonial/post-colonial nation and setting for an Age of Worms game, but I gave it up because Sargava's actually really close to being Ira Berlin's Atlantic Littoral: the Game. (To the point that I suspect someone at Paizo read Many Thousands Gone.) It didn't make sense to change that into a New World slave society.
And also I study American slavery so my rendition of a slave society is probably way too dark and real world uncomfortable to be much fun in a game. I try not to talk to a friend about it anymore because I was giving him nightmares.
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Have you considered using a different setting than Golarion in your games?
I do play in other game worlds, however, if one of the calling cards that is used by Paizo is how inclusive Golarion is, transgendered, homosexual, non European cultures and peoples, I do not think it is too much to ask that the diversity be added to in a non Hero and Holiday manner.
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There is a couple paragraphs in the hardcover book Inner Sea Races about Arcadians. And in the book Mythical Monsters Revisited under the Couatl section there is a brief mention of Arcadia as well which seems to suggest an Aztec like society.
In truth though I recommend just being a bit patient for the cultures you want, because it's not a matter of if Paizo will get around to introducing them, but more of a matter of when they will get around to introducing them. In fact knowing Paizo, they probably already have a bunch of stuff worked out for Arcadia and its cultures and they just haven't put it in any books yet.
And as for Iconics, who knows maybe Paizo will do something like they did for Ninja and Samurai where they took classes and changed them around a bit to make new Iconics.
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A Latin American-like analogue would be really interesting to see. But I would prefer it to be the result of something else than what one would commonly expect, such as the something modelled on the Spanish conquest of the Aztec & Incans, etc. I think it would be cooler if it were based on myths/theories of Phoenician sailors making contact with Pre-Columbian America (the fantasy genre is one of the few places where we can cherish the truly zany history myths & conspiracies). The ancient Jistka Imperium seems a good candidate to fit that role, with perhaps a segment of it's people forced to flight to the mysterious lands west of the Steaming Sea, during the last days of their dying empire
This would be great!
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It is even more difficult to find a Celtic analog in Golarion :-(
I couldn't tell you, off the top of my head, where I read this but I believe that most of that was in pre-Worldwound Sarkoris and can still be found among its surviving people.
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I would say that we really don't have to have colonization to have something analoguous to Hispanic culture. In much of fantasy setting, we have kingdoms that are inspired by Western European lands without much of the conquering that happened.
Consider the following. England, which has been a huge influence for many Western RPG settings, was shaped by the invasions of Vikings, Romans, and Anglo-Saxons. Most fantasy settings do not reflect these, instead having the England-influenced fantasy kingdom's culture come about on its own volition.
In addition, much of what we consider standard fantasy Middle Ages was heavily shaped by the fall of the Roman Empire, the Mongol Invasion, the rise of Christianity, and the Crusades against Islam. Most fantasy settings gloss over these things. Golarion's Mongol analogue can't even make it to Avistan.
So if we can accept this for your bog standard fantasy setting, then I think we can also do this with Hispanic and Caribbean cultures. Hell, I've already done it in my homebrew setting.
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In addition, much of what we consider standard fantasy Middle Ages was heavily shaped by the fall of the Roman Empire, the Mongol Invasion, the rise of Christianity, and the Crusades against Islam. Most fantasy settings gloss over these things. Golarion's Mongol analogue can't even make it to Avistan.
To be fair, horses tend to die quickly when traversing continent-spanning glaciers.
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I've got a slightly divergent view about Golarion's inclusivity.
While it's a mish-mash of real world cultures, it's not a diverse selection. In the inner sea region, what's true of virtually every region? State-level social organization. This nation or that one may have superficial differences between them.. but strip away the superficial dressing and Nidal isn't that much different than Andoran and Andoran really isn't any different from Cheliax.
My complaint is most everyone identifies with a nation-state in what's "clearly" a pre-Westphalian world. Why is the beer-brewer from Almas considered an Andoran first and foremost? He "should" be self-identifying primarily as a Caylenite (or other appropriate religion), a member of a beer-brewing guild/society/sodality, or even a part of the community of Almas instead of thinking of himself foremost as a citizen of any nation. Focusing on the borders between this kindgom or that empire is not at all in line with a fantasy-medieval world, in my view. That doesn't correspond with the real world until the Renaissance and the "God and Country" sentiments that come with Nationalism.
There's a bit of recognition in the appropriateness of contrasting all this in the "backwards" peoples like the Shoanti and Ekujae, but imo the nations of the Inner Sea should be the exception rather than the rule.
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I've got a slightly divergent view about Golarion's inclusivity.
While it's a mish-mash of real world cultures, it's not a diverse selection. In the inner sea region, what's true of virtually every region? State-level social organization. This nation or that one may have superficial differences between them.. but strip away the superficial dressing and Nidal isn't that much different than Andoran and Andoran really isn't any different from Cheliax.
My complaint is most everyone identifies with a nation-state in what's "clearly" a pre-Westphalian world. Why is the beer-brewer from Almas considered an Andoran first and foremost? He "should" be self-identifying primarily as a Caylenite (or other appropriate religion), a member of a beer-brewing guild/society/sodality, or even a part of the community of Almas instead of thinking of himself foremost as a citizen of any nation. Focusing on the borders between this kindgom or that empire is not at all in line with a fantasy-medieval world, in my view. That doesn't correspond with the real world until the Renaissance and the "God and Country" sentiments that come with Nationalism.
There's a bit of recognition in the appropriateness of contrasting all this in the "backwards" peoples like the Shoanti and Ekujae, but imo the nations of the Inner Sea should be the exception rather than the rule.
That's because, aside from a few elements here and there but mostly military technology, Avistan is NOT a medieval world. Culture-wise it's definitely post Renaissance, borrowing elements from as late as 19th century at least. Just take a look at art for most of the major settled regions; a lot of the material for instance in Strange Aeons wouldn't be out of place in 19th century London.
I do know that there is a growing sentiment among the Native American community, and among the Hispanic community, that they aren't really two separate people. Distinct cultures, to be sure, but no more separate than, say, the Comanche are from the Crow. That there's just been this societal imposed mental separation that's made Hispanics identify and be identified more with their European ancestors, which in reality represents a significant minority.
Now, I can't say as I'm educated enough in matters of mapping out genetics & human proliferation to know the complete scientific truth of that sentiment, nor am I claiming it is a universally held belief by either group.
But if one were aiming to capture American Hispanics in Golarion with keeping that in mind, it could be played as a group of Arcadians from the central area simply adopting some elements of Varisian culture in exchange without the need for the unpleasant elements of colonialism that took place in real life.
On that note, a thought on Arcadia and the halt of colonialism in Golarion; the single biggest reason as to why & how the colonization of the Americas went down the way it did was disease. Not guns, not steel, but germs. In a world where Remove Disease is a thing, that problem is going to be mitigated. Not stopped entirely, but certainly slowed. We also have the various Acadian tribes allied with one another and presenting a united force against unchecked Inner Sea expansion, I doubt we'd see anything resembling what happened in the real world unless Cheliax & Taldor put aside their differences and unite specifically to invade a distant continent.
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On that note, a thought on Arcadia and the halt of colonialism in Golarion; the single biggest reason as to why & how the colonization of the Americas went down the way it did was disease. Not guns, not steel, but germs. In a world where Remove Disease is a thing, that problem is going to be mitigated. Not stopped entirely, but certainly slowed. We also have the various Acadian tribes allied with one another and presenting a united force against unchecked Inner Sea expansion, I doubt we'd see anything resembling what happened in the real world unless Cheliax & Taldor put aside their differences and unite specifically to invade a distant continent.
This is all true, but it's actually even better than that for the Arcadians for two reasons:
1. They've actually been in continuous low-level contact with Avistan for many centuries. That means any 'virgin field epidemics' are pretty much done by now. No need for Remove Disease at all (which is good since Remove Disease is just rare enough that it helps with plagues but doesn't really stop them). They've already had any of that sort of thing that was gonna happen occur...hundreds of years ago.
2. Technology. There's absolutely no evidence that the Avistani are at all technologically superior to the Arcadians. And even if they were, magic makes that almost a non-factor. The most powerful weapon any society has in a world with magic is spellcasters...and there's every indication that Arcadian spellcasters are as good as anyone's.
So...yeah, colonialism of the sort that happened in the real world seems unlikely to go well in regards to Arcadia.
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I do know that there is a growing sentiment among the Native American community, and among the Hispanic community, that they aren't really two separate people. Distinct cultures, to be sure, but no more separate than, say, the Comanche are from the Crow. That there's just been this societal imposed mental separation that's made Hispanics identify and be identified more with their European ancestors, which in reality represents a significant minority.
Now, I can't say as I'm educated enough in matters of mapping out genetics & human proliferation to know the complete scientific truth of that sentiment, nor am I claiming it is a universally held belief by either group.
But if one were aiming to capture American Hispanics in Golarion with keeping that in mind, it could be played as a group of Arcadians from the central area simply adopting some elements of Varisian culture in exchange without the need for the unpleasant elements of colonialism that took place in real life.
On that note, a thought on Arcadia and the halt of colonialism in Golarion; the single biggest reason as to why & how the colonization of the Americas went down the way it did was disease. Not guns, not steel, but germs. In a world where Remove Disease is a thing, that problem is going to be mitigated. Not stopped entirely, but certainly slowed. We also have the various Acadian tribes allied with one another and presenting a united force against unchecked Inner Sea expansion, I doubt we'd see anything resembling what happened in the real world unless Cheliax & Taldor put aside their differences and unite specifically to invade a distant continent.
This would be interesting.
On that note, I do have one friend who supports a theory that African tribes were in semi-regular contact with the Americas prior to the advent of European colonialism, of their own initiative and by their own means.
Again, I personally don't know how much evidence supports that particular theory; my own personal research into the subject is limited to reading a section on a wikipedia page. But practically every year we do find stronger and stronger evidence for more and more Pre-Columbian contact events. Even ignoring viking contact which is settled fact at this point, there's speculation ranging from Crusades-era all the way back to ancient Rome and Greek city-states.
So even if one doesn't believe these theories in real life, they're certainly excellent fodder for a fictional setting.
I know my setting is inspired by the alleged travels of Abu Bakr II to pre columbian South America.