Working from suggestions in a previous thread, suggestions from friends w/business degrees, and various stuff on the web, I've come up with some rules to playtest for a better economy. The core of it is that it prevents the explosion of character wealth as they level, but it has several other lesser purposes, such as making masterwork costs vary by item type (no more 600gp quarterstaffs).
Link here:Economics
Feedback is appreciated.
I like this, I'm going to have a look at all of the gear and such to see how it works out.
I like this, I'm going to have a look at all of the gear and such to see how it works out.
Glad to hear someone likes it.
Good exercise and presentation. Some very interesting notions. While I haven't gone too deep in my analysis, I have an issue with the two following points:
The following system, due to vastly reduced cost, requires modification to basic wealth assumptions. Results on starting wealth rolls, treasure generation, and calculation of wealth by character level, should all be divided by AT LEAST 5.
Magical items become even more attractive if most income/prices are divided by 5 (including magic items), but most adventuring gears (imported goods) retain the same price as in PHB. Do you consider magical items to be mostly imported too?
The cost of a Masterwork item is based upon the initial cost of the item before applying the Masterwork component; multiply the listed price of the item by 5 to find the cost to make an item masterwork (if the item has no cost, assume its cost is 1gp), or x3 if the item is a non-thrown missile weapon (bow, crossbow, etc).
This may lead to some issues were the price of a masterwork item is inferior to the (unadjusted) price of a similar item.
More comment should come when I can take the time to digest that a bit more...
'findel
Thanks for the comments. I'll try and explain those points.
Magical items become even more attractive if most income/prices are divided by 5 (including magic items), but most adventuring gears (imported goods) retain the same price as in PHB. Do you consider magical items to be mostly imported too?
Yes. The pricing assumes that in villages/thorps/hamlets, the economy just doesn't deal with magic items and such. Thus the common fantasy trope of the small town merchant taking their wares to a big city to exchange for coins, or barter for the manufactured items they need.
I will admit however, that the wording and mechanic on the rural vs. urban is potentially abusable, and is one of the least certain parts of my model. I am in the process of playtesting it to see about its viability.
Another thing to consider is that most of the play will be in mid- to large-size cities, and that is where most of the magical goods will actually be produced. One might find a steal on a locally produced potion of healing, but won't be able to get a bunch of them, and will be highly unlikely to find a +3 sword of coolness out in the middle of nowhere (even if a good crafter settled down out there, a mastercraftsman able to produce such goods would certainly know the value of their own goods, and price accordingly, especially to outsiders).
As far as the greater desirability of the reduced-price magic items, I think you are correct, but I think this is more in line with the standard of play assumed by the 3.x Core stuff. The way the prices/wealth scale in 3.x assumes that characters are spending huge chunks of money on little magic items as early as 5th level, and assumes a fairly high amount of casters (certainly not a low magic setting). In such an environment, small, rapidly produced trinkets would be far more abundant, and most well-off individuals would have several minor items, but larger items would be far less viable to produce.
This may lead to some issues were the price of a masterwork item is inferior to the (unadjusted) price of a similar item.
If I understand correctly, the concern here is that a masterwork, low-cost item (say, a dagger) will be less expensive than a non-masterwork, high cost item (say, a longsword).
This is purposeful. The items that are costed higher use more metal, and take more time to forge, for the most part. It seems reasonable that a high quality dagger might not be worth as much as even a regular longsword.
The other interpretation (not sure which point you were trying to make) is that you are talking about the differences between a hamlet and a big city for example, where you could buy a locally produced masterwork dagger for less than a normal dagger in a big city. This ideally won't happen for multiple reasons, such as the fact that the metal to produce the dagger isn't actually local in the first place, and the fact that the town doesn't likely have many daggers of that quality anyway. But, assuming that one could do that, and you took the time to travel all the way out to the small town (likely spending rations along the way), I figure it makes sense and rewards good business decisions (kind of like going out of your way to shop at a special discount store instead of the local shop).
This may lead to some issues were the price of a masterwork item is inferior to the (unadjusted) price of a similar item.
If I understand correctly, the concern here is that a masterwork, low-cost item (say, a dagger) will be less expensive than a non-masterwork, high cost item (say, a longsword).
This is purposeful. The items that are costed higher use more metal, and take more time to forge, for the most part. It seems reasonable that a high quality dagger might not be worth as much as even a regular longsword.
Yes, I don't argue that a dagger involves less metal and workmanship, but I'd rather say that it takes a master to make a masterwork dagger but merely a journeyman to make a normal longsword.
I agree that the masterwork price need a tweek when it comes to size. I'd propose a fixed price (which accouts for the masterworkmanship more than anything), which could be divided by two for light weapons andmultiplied by 1.5 (or two) for 2-handed weapons.
Yes, I don't argue that a dagger involves less metal and workmanship, but I'd rather say that it takes a master to make a masterwork dagger but merely a journeyman to make a normal longsword.
I agree that the masterwork price need a tweek when it comes to size. I'd propose a fixed price (which accouts for the masterworkmanship more than anything), which could be divided by two for light weapons andmultiplied by 1.5 (or two) for 2-handed weapons.
The difficulty of the crafting remains the same, so the journeyman still can't make masterwork weaponry.
We initially were thinking about tweeking the costs via variable set prices. When we looked at it, we saw that the numbers resulted in simple, cheap weapons costing the same amount as labor intensive, high material cost weapons (and armor, and generic items). What we wanted to reflect was the fact that simple items, such as a quarterstaff, even when made with fine workmanship, are simply not as expensive or labor intensive to produce as a forged shortsword, and with a fixed masterwork cost, the price variance is most often going to be negligible.
Also, a side benefit of a multiplier rather than fixed price, is that the system rewards people for picking less commonly used weapons, at least early in play. Cheap weapons to masterwork, such as the quarterstaff, have a +1 to hit, while higher damage/crit weapons like the greatsword, are much more costly to masterwork (thus presenting a tension between weapon choices, and a reason to choose the less expensive weapons).
The difficulty of the crafting remains the same, so the journeyman still can't make masterwork weaponry.
Is that new? Masterwork used to be DC 20 as opposed to DC 15.
The difficulty of the crafting remains the same, so the journeyman still can't make masterwork weaponry.
Is that new? Masterwork used to be DC 20 as opposed to DC 15.
Hmm? Not sure what you are referring to... I didn't change the dc's for the crafting of Masterwork items at all, and if it says something to that effect, it's a typo I need to correct. I am working on some alternate crafting rules here, but masterwork stuff stays the same there too.
Hmm? Not sure what you are referring to... I didn't change the dc's for the crafting of Masterwork items at all, and if it says something to that effect, it's a typo I need to correct. I am working on some alternate crafting rules here, but masterwork stuff stays the same there too.The difficulty of the crafting remains the same, so the journeyman still can't make masterwork weaponry.
Is that new? Masterwork used to be DC 20 as opposed to DC 15.
The masterwork component of a masterwork item has a DC 20 to create (on top of the object itself which has a DC between 10 and 20 depending on the item). The mechanics are a bit clunky in RaW, but it makes relative sense.
At any case, a Masterwork item should be more dificult to produce, not only longer/more expensive. You should also consider that in order to make a masterwork blade (be it short sword or two-handed sword), one may require superior installations and tools. This may also be reflected in the price.
Dependining on how realistic you want to get, you may consider (even if you don't implement anything about it) that most - if not all - pre-industrial revolution craft/trade was working on a apprentice-journeyman-master system. The master isn't only a better worker, he's in charge of the show. An item requiring a master to produce (rather than merely supervise) may have a significant price tag, even if its a dagger. At the other end of the scale, 7500 gp (or 15 000 gp if imported) for a masterwork full-plate armor is a high price to pay, especially if you can probably have a +3 chainmail for less than that (considering that the price on enchantments are divideed by 5 under 15000 gp)
Otherwise, I gave more thoughts to your document. My first suggestion would be to re-read it and clarify it. Sometimes it takes me two or three readings to get the info. Its worth clearing-up however.
'findel
The masterwork component of a masterwork item has a DC 20 to create
This is still the same (the DC to craft a masterwork item is still 20), I didn't change the dc for crafting a masterwork item. I actually wouldn't mind it being 25, but figure it isn't worth changing and adding even further complexity.
Dependining on how realistic you want to get, you may consider (even if you don't implement anything about it) that most - if not all - pre-industrial revolution craft/trade was working on a apprentice-journeyman-master system. The master isn't only a better worker, he's in charge of the show. An item requiring a master to produce (rather than merely supervise) may have a significant price tag, even if its a dagger. At the other end of the scale, 7500 gp (or 15 000 gp if imported) for a masterwork full-plate armor is a high price to pay, especially if you can probably have a +3 chainmail for less than that (considering that the price on enchantments are divideed by 5 under 15000 gp)
I think I may reduce the masterwork multiplier for armor to x3, you are correct that the multiplier is too high.
The import/export thing is hanging you up, probably b/c I didn't write it clearly enough (I think I may actually move that to the end, so that it isn't the first thing people see). That only effects the pricing in rural areas, and doesn't change the list cost in the book even then (rural areas have costs for basic, locally produced items CUT, while the list prices for imports remain the same as listed). Large cities have basics (food, shelter, services) increased in price, but item costs remain the same. These prices remain constant for ease of play.
Otherwise, I gave more thoughts to your document. My first suggestion would be to re-read it and clarify it. Sometimes it takes me two or three readings to...
I need to clarify it, I agree. It reads like a technical manual, and a somewhat confusing one at that.
The import/export thing is hanging you up, probably b/c I didn't write it clearly enough (I think I may actually move that to the end, so that it isn't the first thing people see). That only effects the pricing in rural areas, and doesn't change the list cost in the book even then (rural areas have costs for basic, locally produced items CUT, while the list prices for imports remain the same as listed). Large cities have basics (food, shelter, services) increased in price, but item costs remain the same. These prices remain constant for ease of play.
Yeah, got me confused a bit.
I find it awefully useful to make things work in sets of three. We already have light/1-handed/2-handed weapons, light/medium/heavy armors etc. These could follow a standerdized multiplier if need be (x.5/x1/x2???). In this case you could have local/traded/exotic merchandise? At any case, a constsitant system is always more intuitive to use...