How to kill an Eidolon(unchained)


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion


The Eidolon in my game has driven me crazy. Its defense seems unbreakable.

Let’s see a Level 5 Biped Agathion (HD4), with Naturalist Archetype, who has enslaved a half elf to provide him endless power.

With 3 Extra Evolutions and favored class bonus, the Agothion has 8 Evolution points, which can be allocated as follows: Improved Natural Armor*2, Fire Resistance, Energy Attacks, Claws, Limbs.

The Agothion has learnt some skills about Combat Reflex, Power Attack, Dodge

Now, WITH NO EQUIPMENT, the Aagthion has 33 AC(+10 Natural, +2 Dex, +1 dodge, +4 Mage Armor, +4 Shield, +2 Barkskin), while according to the monster creation rules we know a High Attack CR 7 monster ONLY has +13 attack, which means the Aagthion is nearly immune to any attack that targets AC.

And with the help of Resist Energy: Acid, the Aagthion has 10 Resistance to any energy attack, so things like FireBall, Alchemist’s Bomb can be of no help.

Also, we know Biped Agothion has a good fort save and a good will save.

The most crazy thing is, even if I manage to do enough damage to the Aagthion, its master can share HP with him through Life Link, and with the help of Fervor juice, the Aagthion just continues fighting.

Don't forget Summon Eidolon. A scroll can make all my effort in vain. I believe a rod of quicken spell, lesser, can be a nightmare.

So every times the team encounter something, the master just casts shield and stay out of sight, and leave the Aagthion to finish all the monsters. And with 4claws +9 1d4+1d6acid+5(str+2 from animal focus), the Aagthion is doing a goodjob.

Any ideas?


Yes... for all of it's cuisnart powers, the eidolon is still vulnerable to ranged attacks. As to it's magical protections, there's a reason that Dispel Magic is a thing.

Although, having played a Summoner, I'm highly suspicious of the legality of the thing especially at that low a level.

And if the master is pouring hit points into it's Eidolon, it has to maintain line of effect.

Also note.. it's vulnerability is it's reflex saves. Just make sure the master gets included in that fireball.


The master would never show up....
I've checked the text of Life Link, and it doesn't mention line of effect.
I wonder if any archer can actually hit the Eidolon.....


also touch spells are your friend. or maybe an arcane archer? or gunslinger? a well placed pit (preferably deep)?


Alex Chan wrote:

The master would never show up....

I've checked the text of Life Link, and it doesn't mention line of effect.
I wonder if any archer can actually hit the Eidolon.....

If he'd not in the area, make sure to not reveal eidolon's hitpoints or show the battlefield unless he specifically use a standard action to use bond senses (up to level rounds/day). This will quickly drain his ability to stay hidden.

The drawback of Naturalist is that he trades summoner's survivability for eidolon's offense/utility. It sounds like he's trying to conceal that weakness by hiding. If they meet intelligent opponents and those spot an eidolon without it's master, there's a good chance they would be really interested in finding and taking care of the source of the problem.

As Drahliana Moonrunner pointed out. Dispel Magic would be an effective counter. -10 AC would suddenly make it very vulnerable to regular hits.


Pathfinder Starfinder Society Subscriber

Finding and killing the summoner is your best bet.

If the summoner hasn't cast Unfetter Eidolon, he has to be within 100 feet of the eidolon to avoid hit point loss.

If he has cast Unfetter Eidolon, Life Link is suspended while that spell is in effect.

Since this eidolon has a bad Reflex save, I would consider hitting it with area effect spells. It is also vulnerable to touch attacks since 18 points of its AC come from natural/armor/shield bonuses.

The only rules error I have found with this build so far is the 3 Extra Evolution feats. A 5th level Summoner can only have taken that feat twice.


Well, off the cuff, as a 4hd creature the eidolon should only have two feats, you list three. The extra evolution feat has limits on how often it can be taken, at fifth level that limit is twice. What other errors has the player made, or continues to make, in his favor? First thing first, you need to do a thorough audit of character and eidolon stats.


Dispel Magic won't work if the Eidolon is called using the summoner's class ability.

advanced players guide wrote:
The eidolon cannot be sent back to its home plane by means of dispel magic, but spells such as dismissal and banishment work normally. If the summoner is unconscious, asleep, or killed, his eidolon is immediately banished.

However if the eidolon is killed once then brought back using the summon eidolon spell then it can be dispelled. The problem here is that the most NPC's will be a lower level than the summoner so they aren't likely to be able to make the opposed caster check.

PS: If he uses a scroll then caster level of the scroll will be at the lowest caster level needed to cast the spell, so it will be easier to dispel.

PPS: I would use multiple enemies. If defeat is certain have them run away. If they are all on the same team they can report party tactics to higher level enemies. Then the bad guys can use custom tactics such as not even attacking the eidolon and saving it for last and/or using hit and run tactics to wear the party down over several combats.

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Consider other things reflex save can target-- entangle it or glue it to the floor (flying ranged opponents throwing tanglefoot bags, etc). It's a melee creature-- it can't do anything if it's stuck in place unable to move. That's not really 'killing' it, but it's satisfying in its own way to shut something down in that regard. See also: create pit, unless it has a climb or fly speed. In short: Control, don't just focus on damage.

Second, it's nearly always easier to take out a summoner than the combat beast which most eidolons are, so, if you really want to shut it down:

I'd give it a wizard foe who has the spellcraft/Kn Planes ranks to realize 'oh, that's an eidolon. Alright, its master is around is here somewhere. I will go look for the master.'

Wizard with see invisibility/invisible himself starts hunting around for the summoner while the wizard's ranged minions (harpies would be good, especially for their ridic range of their harpy's song which might even get the summoner himself in them-- just say the wizard already saved earlier to his own minions' abilities)... keep the eidolon (and presumably the rest of the party) pinned down.

Wizard finds summoner. Wizard unloads some magic missiles into him, since it's likely the summoner didn't bother shielding himself.

Failing that, if you really are focused on just trying to kill something that will come back within 24 hours no matter what: there's plenty of elemental damage that won't trigger the fire issue. Lightning is probably your best bet.


So its stats should be 18 Str (+2 animal focus), 14 Dex, and +4 BAB. That gives it a CMD of 22 (dodge is counted). Since attack and CMB are basically the same thing, that CR 7 that "can't hit it" can totally trip it, blind it, grapple it, etc. Better yet, anything with reach can do it without needing the feats from outside the Eidolon's reach. Can't make an AoO against what you can't hit.

Anytime the Eidolon is denied a full attack (standing from prone, clearing blind, etc.) it lose 75% of its offense. 1d4+1d6+5 is less than a standard first level barbarian with a greatsword. Even if it power attacked I think the barbarian is in the lead (18 Str, rage to 22, power attack for +3... 2d6+12).

And, as others have said, a bunch of other errors that give the Eidolon more power than it should have.


wraithstrike wrote:

Dispel Magic won't work if the Eidolon is called using the summoner's class ability.

advanced players guide wrote:
The eidolon cannot be sent back to its home plane by means of dispel magic, but spells such as dismissal and banishment work normally. If the summoner is unconscious, asleep, or killed, his eidolon is immediately banished.

However if the eidolon is killed once then brought back using the summon eidolon spell then it can be dispelled. The problem here is that the most NPC's will be a lower level than the summoner so they aren't likely to be able to make the opposed caster check.

PS: If he uses a scroll then caster level of the scroll will be at the lowest caster level needed to cast the spell, so it will be easier to dispel.

PPS: I would use multiple enemies. If defeat is certain have them run away. If they are all on the same team they can report party tactics to higher level enemies. Then the bad guys can use custom tactics such as not even attacking the eidolon and saving it for last and/or using hit and run tactics to wear the party down over several combats.

Pretty sure dispel magic was reccomended for stripping the buff spells off and making the beast hittable.


dien wrote:

I'd give it a wizard foe who has the spellcraft/Kn Planes ranks to realize 'oh, that's an eidolon. Alright, its master is around is here somewhere. I will go look for the master.'

Wizard with see invisibility/invisible himself starts hunting around for the summoner while the wizard's ranged minions (harpies would be good, especially for their ridic range of their harpy's song which might even get the summoner himself in them-- just say the wizard already saved earlier to his own minions' abilities)... keep the eidolon (and presumably the rest of the party) pinned down.

Wizard finds summoner. Wizard unloads some magic missiles into him, since it's likely the summoner didn't bother shielding himself.

A sneaky invisible ninja with a katana will do 1D8+3D6 sneak attack (average damage 17 with no STR bonus) and could possibly power attack as well, if he is a STR based build. More than likely taking half the Summoner's health in 1 hit.

Dark Archive

Java Man wrote:
Well, off the cuff, as a 4hd creature the eidolon should only have two feats, you list three. The extra evolution feat has limits on how often it can be taken, at fifth level that limit is twice. What other errors has the player made, or continues to make, in his favor? First thing first, you need to do a thorough audit of character and eidolon stats.

I think he means that the Eidolon is at 5 HD, and the Summoner would then be 6th level. That said, an audit is still a good idea.

As for tactics, targeting the Summoner is just sound logic. Not because he controls the Eidolon (the telltale rune is very easy to cover up) but because going for the caster is just smart. The usual range of tactics often work: sneaking into melee with him, archers that hold actions to interrupt spells, and just plain full attacking to knock him into the negatives.

The Eidolon is a solvable problem. It relies on multiple attacks, meaning DR and Hardness are the best defenses. A Large Earth Elemental has solid DR as well as immunity to acid, plus it's CR is low enough to send at the party in packs. A huge one seems like a decent mid boss, but you'll mostly want them as a front like to protect the damage dealing enemies.

Enter Team Touch Attack. Gunslingers make fun enemies. Their x4 crit potential makes them a sleeper threat in any fight, and at level 5+ they can blast through the relatively low HP Eidolon with raw damage. Their guns make for a fun exotic currency when looted: expensive enough to sell for a good pay off, but the 'broken' status means it's hard for PCs to abuse them. Alchemists are a fun variable, offering various bombs to impede the Eidolon while daging it. Frost bomb is the weapon of choice here, ignoring the fire resistance while potentially applying the staggered condition. And with Infusion, thet can pass their many powerful buffs around to the other enemies before the fight. And last but not least, the Kineticist. Various elements have enegry blasts that hit as ranged touch attacks, allowing them to bombard with accuracy. Fire is a surprisingly strong one with its ability to ignore some fire resist while also slapping on some damage-over-time that can make it harder for the Summoner to cast spells.

Throwing some mixture of the above (depending on your campaign setting 'sand tech level and tone) shpuld at least give the Eidolon pause. Yes, Summon Eidolon can bring it back, but the Summoner is blowing a full round to get a half HP Eidolon. At that point the enemy should be able to take it down again.


Anything with scent or a better detection ability will be able to find the Summoner regardless of stealth, given a little time to cover the area. Hit the Eidolon with some sort of entangling effect, and it'll be out of the way for a bit.


Pathfinder Starfinder Society Subscriber

Also, even an eidolon summoned by a ritual is vulnerable to Banishment and Dismissal spells, if you are in a position to have a foe capable of casting one of these spells.


To be fair: The player invested pretty much everything into making this a combat eidolon, so it should work most of the time.

Anyway, two more ideas:

* Incorporeal creatures. The eidolon's claws are not magical, so they deal no damage at all. Some other party member will have to deal with this foe - make sure someone can and that there are other targets for the eidolon.

* Teleporting creatures, e.g. a barbed devil. Given the eidolon has to go into melee, the foe can always evade the attack and attack a more vulnerable spot of the party.


be glad it's not a chained eidolon since those were even stronger!


Pathfinder Starfinder Society Subscriber

If I were that summoner, I would be putting an Amulet of Mighty Fists on that eidolon at first opportunity.

One point to note is that the relative power of an eidolon is inversely proportional to the point buy value for stats since the eidolon begins with a fixed array that disregards the point buy value. My APG summoner and eidolon pair were not overpowered in a game where we got a very generous 30 point buy. It would have been a very different story in our current 15 point buy game.


I will start by freely admitting that I have hated the summoner since day one, or I should say the eidelons. I'd love to play a master summoner, with no eidelon at all, and only one summon up at a time, but PFS banned it for good reason.

Anyways, to the topic at hand. I'd go the passive-aggressive rout. Every single combat consist of 1hd goblins and kobolds. That is the XP and treasure they get forever, or until the summoner realizes his completely freaking broken eidelon is ruining the game.

Until they make eidolns on par with animal companions, I won't participate at a table with them. Mainly because I don't have to because the eidelon will cake walk the mod every time. I also dislike that they can get around the loopholes that have plagued every druid, and why I have never seen a cavalier character played at a PFS table, is that it is insanely easy to say, "No your bear can't come in here," while sumonners get to 2 man party an entire mod all the time.

I'm done venting, sorry. I'd just ban it, it nerf it, or have a story arch where a 20 HD ranger with favored enemy eidolon shows up to kill the eidelon and then leaves, every time it gets too cheesy. Play fair or die.


Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Maps, PF Special Edition, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

1. The summoner can only take Extra Evolution at most twice at level 5, so he eidolon has an extra evolution point they should not have
2. The eidolon only gets two feats at level 5, and therefore cannot have all three of dodge, combat reflexes, and power attack

As mentioned before, dispel magic would drop the ediolon's AC by 10, making it pretty hittable against monsters with +13 (50% shot vs AC 23).

If you absolutely need a nuclear option though, check out final sacrifice from Monster Summoner's Handbook. From my own calculations, the eidolon has +10 to their Fortitude save against the spell and it's reasonable for the DC of that spell to be at least 15-16, so they'll fail the save at least 25% of the time. Expect a very grumpy player if you attempt this though.

How are the other players reacting to this eidolon? Do they feel like they aren't having fun because the summoner's player is always stealing the show? If yes, pull the summoner aside after a game and talk with them about the issue and ask if they can maybe just dial it down a bit so other people can play their characters. Do they think it's great that the summoner can pick up combat so they can focus on other things? If yes, ask yourself if this is something you can live with or if the fact the eidolon is that powerful is making it so that you yourself are not having fun. If you can live with it and the other players like the setup, then nothing really needs to be done. If it's actively harming your own fun running the game, then pull the summoner aside after a game, let them know that, and talk with them about what can be done about it.


Quote:
Now, WITH NO EQUIPMENT, the Aagthion has 33 AC(+10 Natural, +2 Dex, +1 dodge, +4 Mage Armor, +4 Shield, +2 Barkskin), while according to the monster creation rules we know a High Attack CR 7 monster ONLY has +13 attack, which means the Aagthion is nearly immune to any attack that targets AC.

A level 5 eidolon with double improved natural armor should have only 8 natural armor. You may be adding bark skin twice.

And any animal companion can have Mage armor or barkskin cast on them, while shield is so short in duration, you'll only have it some of the time.

Sovereign Court

Sleep the summoner, eidolon goes away.


Pathfinder Starfinder Society Subscriber
Firebug wrote:
Sleep the summoner, eidolon goes away.

That won't work -- the summoner is a half-elf.

Also, Final Sacrifice will not permanently kill an eidolon.

By the way -- What is the point buy total for this game?


Alex Chan wrote:

The master would never show up....

I've checked the text of Life Link, and it doesn't mention line of effect.
I wonder if any archer can actually hit the Eidolon.....

All supernatural abilities, spells, almost any funky power short of teleport or divination requires line of effect. In fact,if the Eidolon is more than 100 feet from it's master Life Link doesn't work.

IF the Eidolon is unfettered, Life Link does not work AT ALL.

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