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I recently played a couple of games of PFS on roll20 with various players and GM and was wondering what everybody else's experiences are like.
Here is what I'd be interested in:
What are your expectations for PFS in general and for online PFS in particular?
What time zone are you in (assuming you play at according hours)?
How would you generally "rate" your GMs (no names, of course)?
How would you generally "rate" your fellow players (again, of course no names)?
How engaged are you usually?
How happy are you generally with online PFS (if possible, compared to offline PFS or home games)?
What do you think should be improved?
Looking forward to your experiences!
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What are your expectations for PFS in general and for online PFS in particular?
The gaming equivalent of a popcorn movie. It's not shakespere in the park, on a good day you have the mummy, you try to minimize the number of games where it's a uwe bol production. If it must wind up a uwe boll production, be sure it gets MST3k'd.
What time zone are you in (assuming you play at according hours)?
Eastern.
How would you generally "rate" your GMs (no names, of course)?
One of the best PFS dms/dms period i know i met online. By weird coincidence they were also semi local, but neither of us knew that for a few months.
How would you generally "rate" your fellow players (again, of course no names)?
Good players get into it but shy players get a lot shyer. You can't read someone's body language to start talking plus the microphone's delay means that banter back and forth gets a little hung up, and few people can talk except for the DM or the party face.
How engaged are you usually?
Not very. Its very easy for my natural Geek vader voice to cut in on a conversation so i try not to do it.
How happy are you generally with online PFS (if possible, compared to offline PFS or home games)?
I've more or less stopped running online. Tables either get very crowded or don't sustain with very little room in the middle.
What do you think should be improved?
Something that makes it easier to share and store adventures and characters.
Roll d20 is great, but you need to pay through the nose to save characters to take from game to game, which is a huge problem in pfs with you wandering from table to table.
Maptools is nice with the ability to swap in and out macros, but instalation is buggy, hosting a game requires a full technical support staff if there's an error, and everyone winds up on different versions that can't play together.
I had hopes for gamespace, but that looks like it crashed.
Looking forward to your experiences!
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Here is what I'd be interested in:How do you intend to use this information?
Nothing in particular. Originally, I had started typing out a lengthy post about my own experiences but realized that I should see how my own experiences align with the ones of others before making generalizations.
To be honest, I am quite disappointed by PFS Online Play for a number of reasons. I guess, I was hoping to hear about experiences closer to what I had hoped for going in so I would be motivated to keep at it.
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PFS in general: Well it is "Plug and Play"! Bring any character with a legal sheet to a game and you can play in the appropriate tier. Online I expect the same thing with a little more work on the player and GM ends. The DM can't simply show you a picture in the scenario in front of them, they need to find a way to turn it into an image that they can show all of the players. A player needs to spend time putting their sheet up between games since they will play with different GMs.
I live in Eastern but don't always play at Normal times.
Can't say anything horrible about the DMs. They've spent time putting things onto the Roll20 rooms and even made attempts to speak different for different NPCs.
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Players though.... Okay here is a few I've met that you might encounter yourself if you have not already.
A: The OCD about Art: Every single character must have an image for their character and that image must be made with a transparent background and put into a gray background token that is a triangle. No exceptions! Or I can't focus on Anything! What? Not everyone can use art programs.... Fine, Everyone email the GM your image and they will email them to me since I won't give my email to complete strangers. An hour later.... Can we start now?
Alright, each person is different but if you get someone very picky about tokens you can expect to lose at least a half an hour of play time.
B: Using the Laptop to do something else while the game runs on the Desktop: The player is there and will verbally respond to anything you guys say but at some point there will be a short delay. They signed up to play in your PFS scenario two weeks ago and yesterday promised they would join IRL friends playing an MMO quest during the scenario. The PFS monster battle can freeze for 3 minutes during their turn because the MMO monster is down to 30% Hp.
C: The Dubious Vet: They played DnD 3.0-3.5 for a decade. However they will take rules that have not changed a single bit such as 5' step or taking 10 to climb 10' of rope next to a wall, and act as if all these new PFS rules are the most confusing thing in the world. Before the game they talk about their Tiefling Barbarian who started at level 1 and retired at level 20. During the game they are shocked when the GM tells them that they cannot take a 5' step, move 25', and then shoot their bow during the same round to avoid an AoO.
(I have yet to meet one face to face. I'm pretty sure they are real. So far I've only found them online.)
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Personally I have to say 90% Engaged. The reason for this is that during a 4 hour slot I'm going to need at least one bathroom break. Face to Face you can see the person is gone. Online it feels awkward to announce it to everyone so I'll slip away when it seems quiet. Most GMs online don't consider setting aside a bathroom break time.
As to being happy. That is totally up to the GM and other Players. I can't just pick one since either can be important. If the GM made a Roll20 room to run and all he put up was the battle map it might not be that great. The NPC Nullpunkt is talking to you, he has a picture in the scenario but the GM didn't put it up for us to see "He looks like a guy, who cares, anyway he says..." missing something. If you get too many distracted players it hurts the game too but that is also true of face to face games.
For improving things that is hard. If we use Roll20 as the example....
GMs: If you are set up to run a game and recruiting days in advance set up six blank character sheets that can be viewed and edited by anyone. When someone signs up for you game give them the link to it and they can build their character sheet before the game. This is an application of "We're all adults here, we can play nice and have common sense" despite not everyone necessarily being an adult. The number of times a player will mess with another's sheet I would think is far lower compared to the amount of time it saves everyone.
Players: If you are given the option above, use common sense and act like an adult. When you log in and see Blank Sheet, Empty Sheet, Free Sheet, and Nullpunkt's Sheet, don't edit Nullpunkt's Sheet just because you have the ability to do so. Spend time before the game putting your character into an empty sheet. The Sunday game will run so much better if you built your sheet 5pm Wednesday and I built my sheet at 3:30 AM Friday, and they are both ready before the Sunday game.
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Regional Venture-Coordinator, Online
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As someone who has been involved in hundreds of online and IRL games of PFS and many other systems - my online experience has been the same as my IRL experience.
You'll find the same styles of players and GMs. The games will run about the same. You'll have some players and GMs that are sub-par, and some that are spectacular - just like IRL. [Home games/Online Games/Convention Games - Org Play and otherwise]
What was it about online play you did not enjoy?
(If you don't feel comfortable telling us here, please feel free to PM me, or email me at the address below.)
- Jesse
Jesse R. Davis [IronHelixx]
PFS Venture-Captain, Online Play
Jesse@PathfinderSocietyOnline.com
http://PathfinderSocietyOnline.com
Our Mission: To Champion, Serve, Support, and Build the PFS Online Community.
I recently played a couple of games of PFS on roll20 with various players and GM and was wondering what everybody else's experiences are like.
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I am a member of the PFS Online Collective group. Originally, I did maybe two games a month online, but now I only end up playing online maybe a few times a year, typically during online cons. While I've had a few misses in terms of GM's, almost all of them have been rather adept; the ratio is definitely comparable to physical games. Other than being more prone to distractions or other delays (forgotten mic mutes), a lot of the players are generally fun to play with. However, I've also found players to be a little more demanding than average both in and out of game. Anytime a new game gets posted, it gets flooded. Doubly so if it's a new scenario. GM's are asked, rather than offer, to find second GM's, or even run games in the first place. More often than I've seen in physical play, they only want to do their build role and heavens help you if they can't do that for whatever reason. Not saying there's not people like that for physical games, but I don't see it as much. Could just be luck of the draw, though.
I understand the need for online play. I'm lucky to have a small-ish lodge of active players shared between myself and a VL; I have an amazing VC about an hour north of me and another about 3 hours south. Not everyone has this. Not everyone can form a lodge or even find fellow players for any type of game. I fully support online play, but it's just not something I personally enjoy like I did when I first started.
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I have found game groups to be very much luck-of-the-draw, much like in real-life games. This applies to GMs and players. Some of the most interesting characters, players and GMs I've encountered were online. Some of the worst, also online.
The main thing about online-play is the convenience. No travel time, no printing needed, you can use any image you want for your character/creatures instead of finding a mini, and you can make coffee or snuggle your cat whilst playing (I've done both, though it was a friend's cat, and I was able to make coffee because I have my coffee and kettle beside my laptop).
The downside is that some things become harder to convey. Body language is non-existent because most people are looking at the virtual tabletop on screen. Also, sometimes if a player or GM falls asleep, it can be hard to nudge them awake - I for one am guilty of missing a game once because it was the last of three almost-consecutive sessions, and although I was logged in to the virtual tabletop and had set up the chat room, I literally fell asleep in front of my laptop 15 minutes before the game and only woke two hours later. Had to explain and apologise to the players and ended up running the game for the same group the following weekend. I learned that day that even (or especially) in the comfort of your own home/bed it is important to pace yourself. XD
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Very interesting! Keep 'em coming!
Nullpunkt - why are you disappointed ? Players, GM's, the whole experience ?
[-----Long rant coming up, solely based on my personal experience! Your mileage my vary by lightyears, so please take everything that follows with a mine of salt!-----]
It seems that I might be just a little to thin-skinned. I had one or two genuinely good experiences (and I think one of them happened to be with Terry at the table: The Wounded Wisp, IIRC).
In most cases, there were at least two players and/or GM at the table that really ruined the fun for me. A lot of people constantly go off on tangents, tell long and uninteresting stories about their other characters, break character all the time (actually, not even getting into character), get incredibly distracted ("I hit the wookie. Oh, what? Right, this is Pathfinder.") ridicule the plot, fall asleep for a while or drop entirely, get into rule debates, use MMO language all the time, cut off the GM and are just generally absolutely not interested in actual, you know, roleplay and story. As a result, games also pretty much never start when scheduled and end as planned.
In general, there appears to be no code of conduct whatsoever. At so many games, there are players that don't mute their mic while eating, burping, listening to music or talking to their mother in the room. One time someone was slurping soup so loudly that I couldn't even hear the GM.
What is also really bugging me, and it is quite possible that I am just a stick in the mud about this, is that everyone just seems to entirely ignore any keeping of records: I do not have a single correctly filled out Chronicle sheet. All of them only say +1 XP +2 Prestige and maybe some of the items are crossed out. Nobody ever asks to see any proof of purchase, which I feel like is unfair to paizo and also hurts the campaign, because everyone just runs around with whatever obscure feat or piece of equipment that they just read about in an optimization guide. Also, I doubt that enough GMs audit character sheets and/or chronicles. Even if they wanted to it would basically be impossible due to the lack of accurate chronicles.
So from what I read above, other people also have experiences like that but just power through the bad games to enjoy the good ones. However, even when I try to make as much room in my schedule as possible to game, as a GMT+2 player, it is really hard to get any seats. There appear to be few low level games for newcomers like me (at least in European-friendly time slots), and the ones that exist are filled within minutes of their announcement. There are also a few players who apparently dedicate a LOT of time to PFS and grab every single seat they can even when the game is in the middle of the night for them and they fall asleep during the introduction.
[-----END OF RANT-----]
I hope that did no upset anyone, but it is the experience I had and I really wish it were any different. Like I said, it is quite possible that I am just to easily upset or annoyed but I had to get this off my chest.
Unfortunately, I don't really know how to improve any of this. I have run a few games to help offer more games for Europeans and to also try to help establish a generally higher standard (weird expressions in the context of a game...) but I want to be able to play, too! I really think, though, that a lof issues could be resolved if GMs actually insisted on seeing a proof of purchase of some kind for the source material, like a screenshot of the PDF with watermark or a photograph of the physical book.
Anyway. Just my two copper pieces and like I said, you might have an entirely different experience and I definitely don't want to bash the online PFS, so please don't take this as me attacking a beloved hobby of yours. If you are having fun with it, more power to you.
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I recently played a couple of games of PFS on roll20 with various players and GM and was wondering what everybody else's experiences are like.
Here is what I'd be interested in:
What are your expectations for PFS in general and for online PFS in particular?
What time zone are you in (assuming you play at according hours)?
How would you generally "rate" your GMs (no names, of course)?
How would you generally "rate" your fellow players (again, of course no names)?
How engaged are you usually?
How happy are you generally with online PFS (if possible, compared to offline PFS or home games)?
What do you think should be improved?
Looking forward to your experiences!
For the people who can't travel to very many conventions or long distance, due to health, income, or location, online games are a godsend. I can say that some of the most fun games I have had have been at the AetherCon tables (thanks to all those who make that possible). I have not found online games to be any different than table top games. There are good players and gms, and there are bad players and gms. I have seen no difference in how some gms fill out Chronicles in person or online...some will fill in details, some will not. The occasional character audit is not a bad idea, but when you have a few dozen chronicle sheets and attached inventory on paper, this is nearly impossible for online games. Also note that many of us are not out to cheat, and keep detailed records for every character. At conventions, even with online conventions, where you only have 4 hour slots, there is just not enough time for the gms to fill everything out...they have to grab all their things and sprint to the next table to even have a chance to start and end on time, not to mention food and bathroom runs. All in all I have had good experiences online, and I hope people continue to run online games well into the future. My thanks to all of you.
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Far too fatiguing to do. I'm a bit attention deficit and struggle with keeping enough focus on an online game for the six hours they took when I did try to play it; as an end result, I end up incredibly fatigued after either running or playing online, whether it's over Roll20, IRC, or even PBP (my one attempt at PBP ended up with me quitting Temple of Empyreal Enlightenment literally maybe one-tenth of the way through, leaving me unable to play it without using a GM star - the PBP went on to continue for over a year after I dropped it).
To further my lack of enjoyment, the one time I decided to GM over Roll20 and pulled out my favorite scenario to do so, I was browbeaten by some of the players. Needless to say, sour taste in my mouth, have not tried it since.
Also, holy GMT+2 buddies, Batman! I'd love to help out with that timezone problem, but alas, I can't find the stamina.
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What is also really bugging me, and it is quite possible that I am just a stick in the mud about this, is that everyone just seems to entirely ignore any keeping of records: I do not have a single correctly filled out Chronicle sheet. All of them only say +1 XP +2 Prestige and maybe some of the items are crossed out.
Are they signed at all?
The full chronicle treatment: extract pdf. Sign it. save copy. alter copy. save altered copy 1. Make copy 2 save altered copy 2 alter copy 3 save copy 3.... gets a little tedious.
Nobody ever asks to see any proof of purchase, which I feel like is unfair to paizo and also hurts the campaign, because everyone just runs around with whatever obscure feat or piece of equipment that they just read about in an optimization guide.
It's just not very practical to check ownership online. If i have a camera handy i can hold up a newspaper and my inner sea gods book , but that thing eats bateries..
Also, I doubt that enough GMs audit character sheets and/or chronicles. Even if they wanted to it would basically be impossible due to the lack of accurate chronicles.
Do you expect players to scan their chronicles in or something? that would probably take me a few hours since most of my characters are a combination of meatspace and online play.
I need to ask how much experience you have with meatspace pfs? A lot of games in real life aren't as "by the book" as you seem to expect.
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Are they signed at all?The full chronicle treatment: extract pdf. Sign it. save copy. alter copy. save altered copy 1. Make copy 2 save altered copy 2 alter copy 3 save copy 3.... gets a little tedious.
I printed mine, filled them out, scanned them in. Scanning can be done hassle-free with any smartphone. I really don't see the problem with that.
Also, I doubt that enough GMs audit character sheets and/or chronicles. Even if they wanted to it would basically be impossible due to the lack of accurate chronicles.Do you expect players to scan their chronicles in or something? that would probably take me a few hours since most of my characters are a combination of meatspace and online play.
That is certainly a good point. But I guess if you want to play on- and offline the extra effort of digitizing your chronicles would be a reasonable request. I don't know how many hundred pages that are in your case but it really would not be much work at all. Just go to any copy shop that has a scanner with a document feeder and an USB port to digitize your backlog. Then scan every new chronicle with your smartphone as it arrives.
I need to ask how much experience you have with meatspace pfs? A lot of games in real life aren't as "by the book" as you seem to expect.
Nada, rien, none at all. I just assumed that Pathfinder players would consider the Guide just another rulebook, thus consider all the special rules just as much RAW.
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As far as auditing goes, I routinely ask for copies of character sheets but know that I am quite unusual in doing so. I have hardly ever asked for chronicles/ITS as frankly this is supposed to be fun, not homework. I have occasionally queried purchases where they seemed very out of line with character level and checked things like fame etc.
That is probably more auditing than I have ever experienced in every face to face game I have ever played in combined which covers Cons in the UK and US.
I don't think that every GM should audit every player every time. But we had a first level 0 XP character with a necklace of fireballs in a game recently and it didn't even raise an eyebrow. I'm not saying that player cheated, I was just surprised that it was accepted as totally normal.
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I printed mine, filled them out, scanned them in. Scanning can be done hassle-free with any smartphone. I really don't see the problem with that.
Not everyone has a smartphone?
Get off my lawn!!!
Nada, rien, none at all. I just assumed that Pathfinder players would consider the Guide just another rulebook, thus consider all the special rules just as much RAW.
There we go. Problem found.
Yeah, a lot of things in practice don't meet the theory laid out in the rulebooks. Dm's almost never check chronicles ,audit for sources, and when we had a thread a while ago about sheets being completely filled out THEN signed one DM actually did that. We thought we were up to TWO dms doing that but then it turned out that the person who did that online was also the same one that did it in meatspace.
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I have gmed some online PFS games and I have had some of the same problems.
The Mic issue and talking over the GM has been a problem, but I feel like these are just disruptive players to begin with.
Some of the later games I have GMed I have actually asked for proof of purchase, by either a screen shot of watermarked pdfs, or a photo of physical books (usually pared with a newspaper or hand written message of my choice). I got alot of back lash from this, though quite honestly I think the people It did attract were higher quality and more respectful players.
The chronicle sheets can be a tad tedious, but nothing a few emails cant work out.
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Very interesting! Keep 'em coming!
[-----Long rant coming up, solely based on my personal experience!
I think you have two separate issues. Neither of them are really connected to online in particular, but really just to PFS in general.
What is also really bugging me, and it is quite possible that I am just a stick in the mud about this, is that everyone just seems to entirely ignore any keeping of records: I do not have a single correctly filled out Chronicle sheet. All of them only say +1 XP +2 Prestige and maybe some of the items are crossed out. Nobody ever asks to see any proof of purchase,
You can find long discussions in other threads about exactly this issue, and probably whole threads about it.
I have seen some who claim that in their area, the chronicle paperwork is done as specified in the PFS Guide. But, I've never seen it myself. I would guess that no more than 1% of PFS tables do this right. I used to myself -- I used to insist that the whole chronicle sheet be filled out, including all the accounting, before I'd sign it. However, after going to PaizoCon 2013 and discovering that nobody else did it that way, I stopped. Now I do what everybody else does. I fill out the XP, PP award, Gold award, day job, top lines (name, PFS#), and bottom lines (event, signature, GM PFS#), and hand off the sheets.
According to the rules, that's not what you're supposed to do. According to standard practice, that's what everybody does, both in person and online. This has nothing to do with online, except that the back-and-forth of doing it right is more time consuming and fiddly online (and I know, as I used to do it that way, 3+ years ago).
I've also hardly seen any auditing of chronicle sheets. I've never done it in person. I used to ask for them for online VTT games. The main PbP community I'm a part of (Myth-Weavers) still asks that players keep all their chronicle sheets online for characters they're using in a game, so GMs can quickly look at them. But, to be honest, in the PbP I'm running there right now, I didn't even check to make sure they're there.
Really, we mostly operate under the honor system. Which is for the most part fine. A few people cheat, but I suspect it's few enough that it's not worth doing all the auditing we're supposed to do just to catch them. (That would just make them better at cheating, so the paperwork would back up their cheating. It's not very hard if you want to do it.)
The real problem is the (not insignificant) number of people who don't fully understand what they're supposed to be doing. I've seen a lot of confusion about things, and I suspect there are a lot of mistakes out there. Auditing would catch some of that. Would it be worth it? I dunno. It'd definitely be a lot of effort.
In most cases, there were at least two players and/or GM at the table that really ruined the fun for me. A lot of people constantly go off on tangents, tell long and uninteresting stories about their other characters, break character all the time (actually, not even getting into character), get incredibly distracted ("I hit the wookie. Oh, what? Right, this is Pathfinder.") ridicule the plot, fall asleep for a while or drop entirely, get into rule debates, use MMO language all the time, cut off the GM and are just generally absolutely not interested in actual, you know, roleplay and story. As a result, games also pretty much never start when scheduled and end as planned.
Much of this is also just the nature of PFS, not specific to online. You get a bunch of gamers together, they're going to have different table styles. Some people (it sounds like you are in this category) want real immersive roleplay. Some people want to goof around and have a good time. Some people want to focus, some people want to be able to play while being able to do other things at the same time. Online exacerbates this because people can go and do other things without being seen doing that, whereas in person it's more obvious. But really this is a play style thing.
What you really need is to find a group of people who want to have the same play style as you, and then play with that group a lot. I've had success with this, in finding a group of people I play both online home and online PFS games with. You can do this by whenever you play a game online, if there's somebody you enjoyed playing with, keep track of them. Try to collect the people whose styles you find you like, and then try putting together a group with those people.
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"AHAH! Caught you cheating.
"What.. how? these chronicle sheets are in order and they're perfect!
"Exactly! There's nothing done in pencil or crayon, all the math is right, they're in order, they're all completely filled in and signed by the dm, AND I CAN READ IT ALL. There is absolutely no way ANY of this is real...
"Dammit, foiled again.
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"AHAH! Caught you cheating.
"What.. how? these chronicle sheets are in order and they're perfect!
"Exactly! There's nothing done in pencil or crayon, all the math is right, they're in order, they're all completely filled in and signed by the dm, AND I CAN READ IT ALL. There is absolutely no way ANY of this is real...
"Dammit, foiled again.
That is what I've been doing wrong. I've been writing it crayon all this time!
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Thanks everyone for chiming in!
The fact that some of my gripes are actually not specific to online PFS somehow makes me less annoyed by them.
What you really need is to find a group of people who want to have the same play style as you, and then play with that group a lot. I've had success with this, in finding a group of people I play both online home and online PFS games with. You can do this by whenever you play a game online, if there's somebody you enjoyed playing with, keep track of them. Try to collect the people whose styles you find you like, and then try putting together a group with those people.
I think that is very good advice and I intend to follow it.
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Regional Venture-Coordinator, Online
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It varies depending on the group. Some of the faster groups can finish in weeks. The more deliberate groups can take months. We have found the average PFS scenario takes about 30-40ish days to complete in PbP.
In your experience, how long does a scenario take to complete as PbP?
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I should add that one more caveat of PbP is that any character in a PbP game is not eligible to play VTT or F2F until the PbP game completes.
This could mean you'll end with more characters than you intended, so you can have some playing in PBP and some waiting for a F2F or VTT. Or at least that was what happened to me.
In my case I had moved to play more in PBP than in F2F, due time constraints. And I found more or less the same; good players, good GMs, bad players (not as bad as you described but enough to prefer not play with them again) and bad GMs. Also sometimes the same person can be good or bad at different time (I know it was my case when RL stay in the middle and I had to dissapear some days without saying nothing to anyone).
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It varies depending on the group. Some of the faster groups can finish in weeks. The more deliberate groups can take months. We have found the average PFS scenario takes about 30-40ish days to complete in PbP.
In your experience, how long does a scenario take to complete as PbP?
Someone estimated that the average PbP takes a week for every hour that you'd play, real-time. So five weeks is pretty common for many scenarios.
That said, my experiences with PbP have mostly been faster than that -- about 3 weeks if I can recruit a group of players that also wants a game with a decent pace. However, real life can show up and slow things down, or cause players to drop. There can also be issues if your group is spread across too many time zones.
I would say that the largest factor in PbP pacing is the GM. If you go for one of the faster paced GMs like Feral, you're going to have a much faster game.
