|
I just played my first game as a Magus and was told that I should change my build since I cant use spell combat with Dervish Dance. Since its still level 1 I can fix that, however Im not sure where or why it is I cant use Dervish Dance, since that was my original plan.
I see that recently they added the line to Slashing Grace
"You do not gain this benefit while fighting with two weapons or using flurry of blows, or any time another hand is otherwise occupied."
However the only similar thing that Dervish Dance says is
"You cannot use this feat if you are carrying a
weapon or shield in your off hand."
Which is fine, since spell combat already has that requirement.
However even if thats an issue, I would probably be using spellstrike most of the time anyway. But Id still like to be able to use spell combat, since Its kind of the whole thing a magus has going on.
|
Spell combat counts as two weapon fighting, thus the spell effectively *is* a weapon held in your off hand.
So yes, most people generally read that as negating dervish dance.
I don't know if that's exactly true. Dervish Dancing Magus has been a standard build for quite some time. What's changed recently is that the other DEX to Damage feats have been altered to include language that specifically makes Spell Combat not work. It is reasonable to believe that a not insignificant possibility exists that a similar change will eventually happen to Dervish Dance, but as of now, it does not contain that same language.
I also think it's misleading to say that "most people generally read that as negating dervish dance," when even in the threads for the Fencing and Slashing Grace changes, there's a large sentiment that it means everyone will just go back to using Dervish Dance, because that's the one that's been allowed to work for so long.
Anyway, ProtoJazz, I don't know what advice to give you. I believe currently Dervish Dance works, but if your local GMs rule otherwise, I think it's probably ambiguous enough that they can do that. Also, I don't think pursuing an FAQ on the matter will be productive, since the feat appears in a book that isn't likely to receive an FAQ, and the trend with similar abilities has been to insert language to make it so that they do not work with Spell Combat.
Just go forward expecting it to change. Considering Fencing Grace's "update" it is conceivable that a future book will have a Dervish Dance feat in line with the ____ Grace feats to close off that entire design space for Magi.
|
At 1st level, a magus learns to cast spells and wield his weapons at the same time. This functions much like two-weapon fighting, but the off-hand weapon is a spell that is being cast.
How do you read that as "you do not have a weapon in your off hand, when the first line of the class ability is "you have a weapon in your off hand?"
My recollection of the threads predating the slashing grace errata was that dervish dance doesn't work, and that was why most maguses went strength or agile.
|
|
Thread from 2011 claiming the consensus from the playtest was that it works.
Spellstrike and Dervish Dance brings up your take, but seems to resolve that it works.
Thread from 2015 discussing the impact of the Slashing Grace FAQ.
Guide posted to the Advice board in 2011 It features a Dervish build.
Look, I'm not saying that it won't ever be changed to be like you think. It seems pretty evident that they are greatly trying to restrict Dex-to-damage and Spell Combat. But that doesn't change that Dervish Dance and Magus has been an accepted combination since 2011. That's why everyone in the more recent threads is afraid of an FAQ, because they're afraid it will go the way of Slashing Grace and Fencing Grace.
But to more directly answer your question, being "like" Two-Weapon Fighting does not make it Two-Weapon Fighting, just like wielding a Two-handed Weapon "like" a One-handed Weapon doesn't make it a One-Handed Weapon.
I don't have any Dervish Dancing build characters personally, and I can see where the interpretation against it comes from. It's just not accurate to say that's how most people feel when it's been an accepted and promoted build for 5 years among the general PF community.
It's currently legal but i wouldn't count on it staying that way.
|
Dervish Dancing Magi have been the most common builds (frequently using Shocking grasp intensified with metamagic reducers)that I hear of online and see at the tables for as long as I can remember them being discussed.
The only conpetitor for most common build would probably be a debuff stacking build, whip, prehensile hair, enforcer etc.and this one is a distant second in popularity at best.
They may change the leagilty (and probably will based on the other feats) but the combo is now legal and always has been.
Disclaimer: There are infinite ways to build and play your character and I am not implying that these builds are better and certainly not the true way to play. I am just stating that from my experiences it appears that most players have thought that Dervin Dance worked with spellcombat for quite a long time.
|
It's currently legal but i wouldn't count on it staying that way.
And I'd expect a little bit of table variation now. Not a lot but some. People on thus thread think it illegal and a fairly goid case can be made that, by analogy, it "should" be illegal.
Pointing out that that position is wrong (and I agree, it is) really doesn't change the fact that it will exist.
While your DM is incorrect that Dervish Dance doesn't work with Spell Combat, it is illegal for your character currently:
Prerequisites: Dexterity 13, Weapon Finesse, Perform (dance) 2 ranks, proficient with scimitar.
There are of course more interesting things to do with your magus.
|
|
While your DM is incorrect that Dervish Dance doesn't work with Spell Combat, it is illegal for your character currently:
Prerequisites: Dexterity 13, Weapon Finesse, Perform (dance) 2 ranks, proficient with scimitar.There are of course more interesting things to do with your magus.
My character does not yet have Dervish Dance. It should have it at 3rd level I think. Whenever I can get the feat next.
Gotcha, 'build' as in intended path of feats/etc, as opposed to already 'built' character options.
|
There is a misuse of some terms in this thread.
Dervish Dance does work with Spell Strike.
It most likely no longer works with Spell Combat.
It arguably never worked, which is why I built my Magus as Str-based.
It's hard to get around the language Jared Thaler quoted up thread.
But because of the ambiguity, and the common perception, I don't call players on it (for now).
(Also, flagged for the Rules Forum, so we can actually get the answer we're all seeking)
The apparent intent of the designers is to have dex to damage be the fighting style of fencing: one hand using a weapon and nothing else in the other, to make up for that styles weakness in the game.
A three level unchained rogue dip may be your safest/only bet if you want to do this route.
Or Agile.
you really can't get an agile weapon that's not an amulet of mighty fists before level 7ish, and 7ish is semi retirement for a lot of characters.
| 7 people marked this as a favorite. |
I get to run my PFS table based on personal predictions of how game options will function post-errata? Excellent.
|
|
I agree with BNW, as written it still works with spell combat, since the language is different from slashing grace (of course slashing grace and fencing grace work with a buckler, dervish dance does not).
They might decide to change it somewhere down the line. Or they might just print something that allows the magus to add agile to his weapon.
The difference beeing is that you use your other hand to cast a spell (effectively two weapon fighting/flurry) but since no weapon is ever held in that hand dervish dance works.
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
dervish dance does not)
it very much does, and there should not be table variation on this. The buckler is strapped to the arm, not carried in the hand. The very same rules that make spellstrike iffy for dervish dance mean that the buckler works.
|
|
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
dervish dance does not)it very much does, and there should not be table variation on this. The buckler is strapped to the arm, not carried in the hand. The very same rules that make spellstrike iffy for dervish dance mean that the buckler works.
Well shame on me for not checking the wording, the FAQ in Slashing grace is very specific (I somehow remembered dervish dance having the wording "using a shield".
|
They might decide to change it somewhere down the line. Or they might just print something that allows the magus to add agile to his weapon.
You can. Just use a finessable one-handed or light weapon and upgrade your sword normally (using money and the fame rules) to add the Agile enchantment.
Of course if you want to be a Black Blade Magus this doesn't work, but it does for most other archetypes.
|
|
They might decide to change it somewhere down the line. Or they might just print something that allows the magus to add agile to his weapon.You can. Just use a finessable one-handed or light weapon and upgrade your sword normally (using money and the fame rules) to add the Agile enchantment.
Of course if you want to be a Black Blade Magus this doesn't work, but it does for most other archetypes.
I have recently suggested the very same thing to a Magus player (just in case Dervish Dance ever gets a different reprint) apparently not getting a +1 keen weapon asap, kinda ruined his concept. It took a bit of math to convince him that this was not the case.
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
They might decide to change it somewhere down the line. Or they might just print something that allows the magus to add agile to his weapon.You can. Just use a finessable one-handed or light weapon and upgrade your sword normally (using money and the fame rules) to add the Agile enchantment.
Of course if you want to be a Black Blade Magus this doesn't work, but it does for most other archetypes.
I think Sebastian was talking about the possibility of Agile getting added to the list of enhancements a Magus can add with their Arcane Pool. I'm not sure I would hold my breath on that one.
I had planned to use Slashing Grace on my Kapenia Dancer Magus, thinking it would work. Then questions came up about "wield as a one-handed weapon" versus actually being a one-handed weapon. Then Slashing Grace was changed anyway. I ended up taking an Occultist dip as a way to add Agile before I could afford to actually purchase the enhancement. The action economy of Legacy Weapon isn't as good as the Magus Arcane Pool, but the flexibility to add any +1 enhancement as a standard action instead of just a limited list is great. Agile, Ghost Touch, and most importantly Bane are all good options. Now that I've upgraded my bladed scarf to Agile, Bane is usually the enhancement of choice. In theory, though, if I wanted to get back that lost spell progression, I could just retrain the Occultist level to Magus and be back to normal. In the meantime, I got Agile a couple of levels earlier than I would have otherwise. I'm going to keep the level for now, though, and see how it goes. It added a lot of flavor to the character as well as several good mechanical benefits.
| 3 people marked this as FAQ candidate. 5 people marked this as a favorite. |
You mean by un-nerfing Slashing/Fencing/Starry Grace, right? Because that's a fix lots of people want back.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Dervish dance with spell combat might still work, but the only reason it does is Paizo's inane errata policy. I'm hoping that they'll correct it somewhere down the line.
For PFS they have a method of updating the splat books. It is called the Campaign Clarification document.
Dervish dance with spell combat might still work, but the only reason it does is Paizo's inane errata policy. I'm hoping that they'll correct it somewhere down the line.For PFS they have a method of updating the splat books. It is called the Campaign Clarification document.
which is still somewhere between its infancy and on its parents going out on their first date.
|
|
They might decide to change it somewhere down the line. Or they might just print something that allows the magus to add agile to his weapon.You can. Just use a finessable one-handed or light weapon and upgrade your sword normally (using money and the fame rules) to add the Agile enchantment.
Of course if you want to be a Black Blade Magus this doesn't work, but it does for most other archetypes.
And a Dervish Dancing Elf Blade Bound Magus is exactly what I have been playing since I created her 3 years ago. She is 10th level now and a change to Dervish Dance would require a major rebuild as I wouldn't even be able to use my Dex to hit with my Black Blade anymore, not just damage.
Dervish dance with spell combat might still work, but the only reason it does is Paizo's inane errata policy. I'm hoping that they'll correct it somewhere down the line.For PFS they have a method of updating the splat books. It is called the Campaign Clarification document.
Since Dervish Dance is from Inner Sea World Guide, they could just post a FAQ to the Golarion Rules and Questions page. I'd prefer this to the PFS-specific option. I wish they had made all of the Dex-to-damage changes a once. Changing only Slashing Grace at first left many of us thinking that Fencing Grace would be safe since it was from a splatbook. Using UI to change Fencing Grace leaves the fate of Dervish Dance really uncertain. No matter what they intend for Dervish Dance, they really should FAQ this to remove the uncertainty.
The apparent intent of the designers is to have dex to damage be the fighting style of fencing: one hand using a weapon and nothing else in the other, to make up for that styles weakness in the game.
A three level unchained rogue dip may be your safest/only bet if you want to do this route.
Or Agile.
Or Agile.you really can't get an agile weapon that's not an amulet of mighty fists before level 7ish, and 7ish is semi retirement for a lot of characters.
Dipping three level of Unchained Rogue is pretty costly for a Magus. Another option is to dip one level in Occultist and use Legacy Weapon (the Transmutation Base Focus Power) to add Agile when you need it.
This isn't nearly as good as the original Slashing/Fencing Graces were, but it might be good enough. You probably have at least a +2 or +3 Int modifier as a Magus. That will give you 3 or 4 points of Mental Focus each of which will get you Agile one minute.
Downsides
(1) Legacy Weapon takes a standard action to activate, so instead of diving into battle right away, you are probably spending your first round of combat using a swift for Arcane Pool and a standard for Legacy Weapon, leaving you a with only a move action.
(2) You have set back your Magus progression by one level (spells, BAB, Arcane Pool, etc.). But that isn't as bad as taking three levels in Unchained Rogue.
Upsides
(1) Obviously the primary benefit is that you can add Agile (or any other +1 equivalent ability) to your weapon.
(2) You get two Resonant Powers. Transmutation gets you a +2 enhancement bonus to any physical ability score, and that's pretty much always useful. You're probably going to want to put all of your Mental Focus into the Transmutation Implement so the other Resonant Power won't be of use most of the time, but you never know.
(3) You get Spells and Spell Lists for two Implement Schools. Occultists have a lot of spells that you don't get as a Magus, and that's great for using Scrolls and Wands. I like the idea of selecting Conjuration for the healing spells. With a Wand of CLW, scroll of Delay Poison, and the Stabilize cantrip you can be a decent medic. And remember that the spells don't have verbal, somatic, or cheap material components. Being able to cast Mage Hand, Message, or Break while immobilized might prove handy sometime.
(4) You get a lot of new class skills: Appraise (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Disable Device (Dex), Disguise (Cha), Knowledge (engineering) (Int), Knowledge (history) (Int), Knowledge (religion) (Int), Linguistics (Int), Perception (Wis), Sense Motive (Wis), and Sleight of Hand (Dex).
(5) You get one Focus Power. You are probably going to want to save your Mental Focus for Legacy Weapon, but there are a few that might be worth it in an emergency.
(6) You get proficiency with medium armor which is useful if you want to wear a mithral breastplate before level 7. You get proficiency with shields. That might prove useful in some circumstances.
(7) As a psychic caster, you get a few little extras like the Psychic Skill Unlocks.
Overall, I don't think it is a bad trade-off.
|
Contributor
|
I like the uncertainty just fine, at least compared to the alternative.
I don't see why we need to rush to eliminate the remaining functional option (barring an anti-DtD agenda). If they're really that dedicated to eliminating Dex-to-damage, they could do so whenever they please (via FAQ or PFS-specific Clarification).