Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento
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Well, it is *canonically* evil. (You are casting an [evil] spell that detects as evil and which creates an evil creature.)
The big question is "How evil is it?"
Like all other alignment questions, ultimately it comes down to GM interpretation.
As far as rules go, we have a definitive statement that casting an [evil] spell is not an alignment infraction. I.E. it is not enough on it's own to immediately shift your alignment, though what it does may be.
Your ultimate question "Is it evil to use evil to fight evil" is a question that every GM will need to answer for themselves. So expect table variation.
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These two statements are contradictory.
As far as rules go, we have a definitive statement that casting an [evil] spell is not an alignment infraction. I.E. it is not enough on it's own to immediately shift your alignment, though what it does may be.
Your ultimate question "Is it evil to use evil to fight evil" is a question that every GM will need to answer for themselves. So expect table variation.
There is an official ruling for PFS that animating undead, or casting any spell with the [evil] descriptor isn't an evil act. Which means there's no room for the GM to interpret otherwise; and any GM that tries to shift your alignment for animating undead is violating the rules for PFS.
i have a necromancer character and one one has ever been offended
he is also from GEB ...
no one..sorry
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Agreed there is no variation on this. It simply isn't evil to use this spell.
... provided you're not a paladin, cleric, druid, or have a trait attached to worshiping a good god or one that doesn't like undead (Like Pharasma). It's not evil in the sense that your CN wizards foray into the dark arts won't make the evil(er) (CN: its not evil! *wink wink*) because the society doesn't want to track darkside points, but it will still make a paladin fall faster than a monkey with a jetpack.
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Most divine casters who worship gods simply can't even prepare spells of the opposite alignment. Makes it unlikely to happen.Actually that isn't the case. Clerics and Warpriests have that restriction. Hunters and Druids do but only if they worship an actual deity. Paladins and Rangers don't. Neither do Oracles or Shamans.
Paladins spell list makes it impossible for them to prepare an evil spell anyway. The others don't worship a god as a class feature.
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Paladins spell list makes it impossible for them to prepare an evil spell anyway. The others don't worship a god as a class feature.That used to be the case but unsanctioned knowledge opened it up as a possible, if rather stupid choice.
hey, now that they cast based off of charisma int AND wisdom are both dumps stats...
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So assuming they aren't violating their code a paladin/oracle could go animate some dead just fine then.
Thats not an assumption, its saying what if gravity didn't work.
Using an [evil] spell certainly qualifies as a code violation, there's a reason good clerics can't cast them at all. You also can't work with evil associates, which your newly raised undead allies would be.
This sort of thing really shouldn't need saying. Paladins smite the people that raise undead mockeries of all that is sacred in the face, they don't take it up as a hobby.
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Using an [evil] spell certainly qualifies as a code violation. You also can't work with evil associates, which your newly raised undead allies would be.
Again only if the code actually says something which you would be violating.
You totally can ally with evil associates to defeat a greater evil.
This is beyond absurd. It's abundantly clear what code that specific post was talking about, "accidentally" not understanding that is rules lawyering cheese weaseling that belongs under the darkest rocks in the rules forum IF it belongs anywhere at all.
Being a paladin means something more than getting your charisma bonus to your saves. It means standing for honor, justice, right, and everything that is good and holy.
The code doesn't say that you can't use [evil] spells because it really should go without saying to anyone even considering being a holy warrior for good that you don't do anything that has the warning label [evil] clearly written on the front of the jar. It certainly means that you do not take take the very essence of evil, bring it into this world, and use it to animate a corpse in an unholy mockery of the miracle of life and set it loose upon the world.
I get that paladins can be more than one dimensional sticks in the mud, and that there's a lot of things you can certainly do as lawful good that are dark and gritty, but there's a line somewhere or the very idea is meaningless. Where exactly that line is is certainly debatable, but raising your own undead servants that hunger for the flesh of the living is so far past it the light from that line couldn't be seen with the Hubble telescope.
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Venture-Agent, Netherlands—Utrecht
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I have a Necroccultist who's flavored as an "undead walking service" to put the restless to rest. Most people seem fine with it, even some Paladins and Clerics. They say, "as long as it's for the greater good, I'm fine with it, but I'm keeping an eye on you." Though it might just be to let me play my character without being booed off the table.
I've heard raising the dead is flavoured as binding an unwilling soul to a body and using it against its will. It also prevents it from going to heaven, I believe (heard from other people, not read myself, so I could be off). So that's definitely evil. But how the Occultist's power works isn't defined: do you will a body to move again for a while? Or are you conjuring it up from thin air? Because it's not defined, a Paladin could in theory multiclass to Occultist (if he had the INT for it) and have an undead buddy walking around without any problems. Provided your deity doesn't have any problems with it, of course.
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But how the Occultist's power works isn't defined: do you will a body to move again for a while? Or are you conjuring it up from thin air? Because it's not defined, a Paladin could in theory multiclass to Occultist (if he had the INT for it) and have an undead buddy walking around without any problems.
There's a number of huge problems.
First off, if a paladin isn't sure whether whether or not the happy fun rock rips a soul out of it's final resting place and traps it in a rotting corpse .
Secondly, the "I didn't absolutely know i was doing was wrong even though all the evidence points that way so it's all good right?" is not only the hallmark of lawful evil but that level of epistemic Nihlism would get you the hairy eyeball (or a job recommendation) in the courts of asmodeous. Iomadae would punt you down to anti paladin before you could finish the opening argument.
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Secondly, the "I didn't absolutely know i was doing was wrong even though all the evidence points that way so it's all good right?" is not only the hallmark of lawful evil but that level of epistemic Nihlism would get you the hairy eyeball (or a job recommendation) in the courts of asmodeous. Iomadae would punt you down to anti paladin before you could finish the opening argument.
Iomedae is NOT the only deity for a paladin. Just sayin'.
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Iomedae is NOT the only deity for a paladin. Just sayin'.
Secondly, the "I didn't absolutely know i was doing was wrong even though all the evidence points that way so it's all good right?" is not only the hallmark of lawful evil but that level of epistemic Nihlism would get you the hairy eyeball (or a job recommendation) in the courts of asmodeous. Iomadae would punt you down to anti paladin before you could finish the opening argument.
Fine, abadar waits till your argument is done, spends 6 months on the trial, fines you your entire net worth and then transfers you to his new lawful evil anti paladin tax collection squad in the infernal revenue service.
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Fine, abadar waits till your argument is done, spends 6 months on the trial, fines you your entire net worth and then transfers you to his new lawful evil anti paladin tax collection squad in the infernal revenue service.
I could see Irori actually making an exception for this, depending on context, and as long as the deceased was sent on their proper way 'after use'.
I could see the 'reverse' (necromancer who gets 'religion') following someone such as Grandmother Crow (who's aware that being good is a hard road that you have to constantly work on) or Ragathiel (devil-child raging ends justify the means murderhoboadin go-to) working uneasily with it under the same sorts of understandings... 'ie, don't do it unless you absolutely have to, but not outright NO'.
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I could see the 'reverse' (necromancer who gets 'religion') following someone such as Grandmother Crow (who's aware that being good is a hard road that you have to constantly work on) or Ragathiel (devil-child raging ends justify the means murderhoboadin go-to) working uneasily with it under the same sorts of understandings... 'ie, don't do it unless you absolutely have to, but not outright NO'.
A paladin's god specific code does not override the general one. Paladins have a lawful Good "take" on their god. While a lawful evil monkcleric of irori could certain raise himself some animate training dummies an irorian paladin is going to have a problem with it.
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Iomedae is NOT the only deity for a paladin. Just sayin'.
Secondly, the "I didn't absolutely know i was doing was wrong even though all the evidence points that way so it's all good right?" is not only the hallmark of lawful evil but that level of epistemic Nihlism would get you the hairy eyeball (or a job recommendation) in the courts of asmodeous. Iomadae would punt you down to anti paladin before you could finish the opening argument.Fine, abadar waits till your argument is done, spends 6 months on the trial, fines you your entire net worth and then transfers you to his new lawful evil anti paladin tax collection squad in the infernal revenue service.
Omg. I find that I HAVE to agree with BNW!
This is totally inline with my understanding. And I love the descriptiveness.
Of course, Abadar could just make you a fighter without the feats, weapon training, etc
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Venture-Agent, Netherlands—Utrecht
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But how the Occultist's power works isn't defined: do you will a body to move again for a while? Or are you conjuring it up from thin air? Because it's not defined, a Paladin could in theory multiclass to Occultist (if he had the INT for it) and have an undead buddy walking around without any problems.There's a number of huge problems.
First off, if a paladin isn't sure whether whether or not the happy fun rock rips a soul out of it's final resting place and traps it in a rotting corpse .
Secondly, the "I didn't absolutely know i was doing was wrong even though all the evidence points that way so it's all good right?" is not only the hallmark of lawful evil but that level of epistemic Nihlism would get you the hairy eyeball (or a job recommendation) in the courts of asmodeous. Iomadae would punt you down to anti paladin before you could finish the opening argument.
Er, I didn't mean to imply "I don't know if it's evil so it's okay, right?" I meant the lack of clear description could mean that unless it's spelled out to work the same as necromancers animating stuff, it's in theory possible.
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I don't reall have anything too meaningful about the current topic, but there a quote from one of Dave Gross's Pathfinder Tales novels that I wanted to share on topic that is neat.
Kline stopped and looked me in the eye. “Listen, Venture-Captain—Count Jeggare, Your Excellency, Varian, all of you—I’m not saying you’re wrong. I’m just saying that people like you and me—Pathfinders or whatever we are now that we’ve quit the Society—we’ve seen things most people never imagine, met people we never knew existed. I’ve encountered a few necromancers who weren’t trying to rule the world with skeleton armies. You have, too, considering what you’ve said about your friend Ygresta. Now I don’t know what happened to you—maybe a necromancer kicked your dog when you were a child—and I don’t think it’s a terrible flaw in your character that you don’t like necromancy. I’m just saying that things aren’t always what they seem. Keep your eyes and mind open. I don’t know why I’m telling you this. You already know it all.”
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Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento
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These two statements are contradictory.
There is an official ruling for PFS that animating undead, or casting any spell with the [evil] descriptor isn't an evil act. Which means there's no room for the GM to interpret otherwise; and any GM that tries to shift your alignment for animating undead is violating the rules for PFS.As far as rules go, we have a definitive statement that casting an [evil] spell is not an alignment infraction. I.E. it is not enough on it's own to immediately shift your alignment, though what it does may be.
Your ultimate question "Is it evil to use evil to fight evil" is a question that every GM will need to answer for themselves. So expect table variation.
Actually, that is not what the FAQ says.
Does casting evil spells cause an alignment infraction?
Casting an evil spell is not an alignment infraction in and of itself, as long as it doesn't violate any codes, tenents of faith, or other such issues. Committing an evil act outside of casting the spell, such as using an evil spell to torture an innocent NPC for information or the like is an alignment infraction. For example: using infernal healing to heal party members is not an evil act.
Note:
"Not an alignment infraction"
It is still evil, it just isn't enough, on it's own, to shift your alignment.
Also, it only covers the act of casting the spell itself, not the results of the spell. So yes, creating undead is an evil act. It is up to the GM if that is enough to shift your alignment.
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I don't reall have anything too meaningful about the current topic, but there a quote from one of Dave Gross's Pathfinder Tales novels that I wanted to share on topic that is neat.
A paladin does not have to run out and smite such behavior (though really, they can)
A paladin can even tolerate that behavior For the sake of party unity and the idea that we're all players that need to go on the same adventure the greater good
But tolerate does not mean that it's ok to engage in the behavior yourself.
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I agree with you that a paladin or good cleric/whatever would lose powers for animating dead things, but I'm also not going to move a LN/N/CN caster to evil for animating dead. I'm not going to participate in this conversation past that previous statement of my opinions on the matter, I just like that quote, that's the only reason I posted it.
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I agree with you that a paladin or good cleric/whatever would lose powers for animating dead things, but I'm also not going to move a LN/N/CN caster to evil for animating dead.
Agreed. I fully understand why it has to be that way for pfs, even if it lets you do a "LG" wizard with an undead chorus ensemble.
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Woo! Stealth paladin alignment thread, everybody drink!Stealth? Not at all. I took one look at the thread title and knew it would turn into a paladin alignment thread. I failed my will save to resist reading the thread anyhow.
Stealth isn't a class skill for Paladins.
*vanishes into Deeper Darkness*,
"Praise Tanagaar."
Key thing to remember about animating undead. You'd be using those material components every session because magical effects do not persist after the end of a scenario.
If you want to play a PFS necromancer, think of a different focus than having armies of shambling undead marching with you from table to table.
"You'd be using those material components every session because magical effects do not persist after the end of a scenario."
What do you mean by this?
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"You'd be using those material components every session because magical effects do not persist after the end of a scenario."
What do you mean by this?
If you play Scenario 9-08 Death By chocholate and have someone cast say, stonekin on you, when you play 10-07 Tangerine Tango the effect is gone,
There's an exception for One continual flame, one masterwork tranformation, one leomonds chest . There's no exception for an animate dead. So if you re animate The giant in Death by chocholate, you don't get to keep him, or his body, for Tangerine Tango. The material component you spent (black onyx) is gone.
Guide page 25
All spells and effects end at the end of a scenario with
the following exceptions:
• Spells and effects with permanent or instantaneous
duration that heal damage, repair damage, or remove
harmful conditions remain in effect at the end of the
scenario
Afflictions and harmful conditions obtained during
a scenario remain until healed and carry over from
scenario to scenario (except in specific instances as
noted on Page 22).
• A character may have one each of the following spells that
carries overs from scenario to scenario: continual flame,
masterwork transformation, secret chest, and secret page.
Ah, I see. I misunderstood what Drahliana Moonrunner was saying. I thought it was being implied that the material components would be returned at the end of each section (which is contrary to what I thought and what BNW just proved). Thanks!
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Key thing to remember about animating undead. You'd be using those material components every session because magical effects do not persist after the end of a scenario.
If you want to play a PFS necromancer, think of a different focus than having armies of shambling undead marching with you from table to table.
When my zombie eats a scythe critical hit instead of an ally, saving me either a scroll of Breath of Life, or a boatload of wand charges, I'd say the material component cost can be worth the investment even on a per-scenario basis. Plus there's the fact that if you get a good load of bodies from the first encounter, you have some assets for the rest of the scenario.
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Best necromancy option for PFS is the Skeleton Summoner feat. Since skeletons don't have an alignment subtype, this is a non-evil method of acquiring undead. Furthermore, the summoned undead will have a matching alignment, so you can generate neutral good zombies....
Plus players have less moral issues since you are just using summon monster. Debatably better than summoning fiendish animals.
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Best necromancy option for PFS is the Skeleton Summoner feat. Since skeletons don't have an alignment subtype, this is a non-evil method of acquiring undead. Furthermore, the summoned undead will have a matching alignment, so you can generate neutral good zombies....
I don't know where you're getting that from.
Alignment: Always neutral evil.
It's part of the Skeleton package.
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This thread made me think of a related question, though.
In attempting to maximize my Channel Energy DC I came across the Symbol of Unholy Command. It's found in the Dhampir section of the Advanced Race Guide. My Necromancer happens to be a Dhampir anyways, although the item is technically legal for anyone to purchase.
The clause that makes me hesitate in purchasing it is "Deliberate use of a symbol of unholy command is an evil act."
So, my related question is this: setting aside the arbitrary nature of determining whether an act is <evil/good/chaotic/lawful>, how many <alignment> acts does it take to cause an <alignment> infraction?
Since using this item is defined as an evil act, does my alignment shift after 1 use? 3 uses? A career of use? It doesn't matter how I use the item, or for what purpose; it's always an evil act.
But how many acts earn an infraction?