I should note that under the latest FAQ for stacking archetypes, Bladebound and Hexcrafter don't stack. Bladebound replaces the third level Magus Arcana, and Hexcrafter alters the entire Magus Arcana ability by adding Accursed Strike to the list. I don't know if that matters to your GM, of course.
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In terms of DPR they're pretty much identical. STR build's gets 1.5x STR sometimes & saves a couple of feats, while DEX build's main stat will be higher since they're less MAD.
The DEX build will also have much better defenses, having much better AC, Reflex, and Initiative.
DEX is also used for many more skills than STR.
Matt2VK is mostly right, except that the DEX build will have marginally better melee touch attacks. (You can finesse touch attacks, and the DEX build's DEX will be higher than the STR build's STR.)
CMB also doesn't matter much for a magus unless you're planning on a True Strike build since their CMB will be too low either build to do much without it.
In terms of power, a DEX magus build is definitely more potent by a significant margin. A STR magus build can be perfectly viable though.
The issue is buffs and stats.
Dex build can have better stats since it doesn't need str, all that's really doing is carry capacity.
Then look at buffs. Enlarge person helps str but not dex. So dex builds will normally never get better reach (except longarm) and could be build to have worse reach by being small and using reduce person.
The feat cost shouldn't be completely ignored either. The dex magus is going to be short at least one feat in weapon finesse. He will be short two feats if he tries to pick up a dex to damage feat, and many of those feats are getting changed to not work with Spell Combat anyway. Meanwhile, the magus has nice feats available to him.
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Bladebound replaces the third level Magus Arcana, and Hexcrafter alters the entire Magus Arcana ability by adding Accursed Strike to the list. I don't know if that matters to your GM, of course.
I don't think it's fair to say that adding a hex to the list "alters the way the parent class feature works" (quoted from the PRD). Even allowing hexes in place of arcana doesn't really change "how it works," though I agree, the whole thing is pushing the boundary. Strangely, I haven't seen this discussed much.
Either way, I'm in the DEX camp, and not surprisingly, I prefer the bladebound hexcrafter, too. My magus did not take many hexes, but flight is indispensable. I did the standard dervish dancer build and had a lot of fun with it. So much so my current investigator is DEX to damage, too (with fencing grace, however).
EDIT: formatting fixed.
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A magus in Kingmaker? Kingmaker has a trait that gives +1 to hit with longswords. And I don't believe you can finesse longswords with spell combat any more. So strength magus can take advantage of the trait but dex magus cannot.
Other than that, as an adventure path, Kingmaker starts at level 1 and living through the first few levels as a dex magus is rough. You don't have dex to damage at level 1 so your damage will be minimal. And you won't have enough spells to spam shocking grasp or even the more efficient (damage per spell) frostbite in order to gain damage in an alternative manner.
So, I'd say the balance of the benefits is in favor of strength magus.
(Also, on the generic comparison, the defensive difference is often overblown. If you are a strength magus with 18 strength, 14 dex, 12 con, 14 Int, 10 Wis 8 Cha, your AC only ever needs to be one or two points behind the Dex magus.
At level 1, Str starts with 14 dex+chain shirt=AC 16. 17 if you take dodge with one of those extra feats you have.
At level 1, Dex starts with 18 dex+chain shirt or 20 dex+studded leather=AC 18
By level 8 or so, Str has 14 dex+breastplate=AC 18. 19 if you take dodge.
Dex probably has 22 Dex+mithral chain shirt=AC 20.
(Both will have magic chain shirt/breastplate, amulet of natural armor, etc but those will be the same across the builds so it won't matter).
By level 12, the strength magus can rock mithral fullplate to even the score with whatever kind of celestial armor the dex build is choosing to use in order to take advantage of its crazy high dexterity.
So, the difference is one or two points of AC. The bigger difference is in Reflex Save and initiative but those aren't generally game changers either. They're more in the line of CMB (which favors the strength build but isn't a big deal)).
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Bladebound replaces the third level Magus Arcana, and Hexcrafter alters the entire Magus Arcana ability by adding Accursed Strike to the list. I don't know if that matters to your GM, of course.I don't think it's fair to say that adding a hex to the list "alters the way the parent class feature works" (quoted from the PRD). Even allowing hexes in place of arcana doesn't really change "how it works," though I agree, the whole thing is pushing the boundary. Strangely, I haven't seen this discussed much.
Either way, I'm in the DEX camp, and not surprisingly, I prefer the bladebound hexcrafter, too. My magus did not take many hexes, but flight is indispensable. I did the standard dervish dancer build and had a lot of fun with it. So much so my current investigator is DEX to damage, too (with fencing grace, however).
EDIT: formatting fixed.
Fair or not, per the FAQ it's not legal.
However, if something alters the way the parent class feature works, such as a mime archetype that makes all bardic performances completely silent, with only visual components instead of auditory, you can’t take that archetype with an archetype that alters or replaces any of the sub-features. This even applies for something as small as adding 1 extra round of bardic performance each day, adding an additional bonus feat to the list of bonus feats you can select, or adding an additional class skill to the class.
adding an additional bonus feat to the list of bonus feats you can select
Gotcha. This is the bit that reinforces what you're saying: adding a feat is identical to adding a hex to the list. I missed that part on first read.
Well, either way, I'd still be OK with it in my games, as would the GMs I play with. We are kinda house-rule heavy anyway, many that I don't even know until they come up "oh no, there's a house rule for that!"
My magus started in Kingmaker, btw. We only really played a portion of the first part of book 1 before diverging into what can best be described as anarchy (among the players, not the PCs). There were 13 of us to begin with, which whittled down to 10 (plus the GM). By 7th level we were an impossible mess to deal with.
Edit: grrr...
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However, if something alters the way the parent class feature works, such as a mime archetype that makes all bardic performances completely silent, with only visual components instead of auditory, you can’t take that archetype with an archetype that alters or replaces any of the sub-features.
It depends on if the FAQ is using the in game definition of "alters" or the natural language version. Note that in an archetype, an ability will say "this alters X-ability" or "this replaces Y-ability". Meanwhile, the Hexcrafter's Hex Arcana ability doesn't have language in it that says it "alters" or "replaces" anything. The FAQ would be more clear if it replaced the keyword "alters" with a non-keyword like "changes".
However, if something alters the way the parent class feature works, such as a mime archetype that makes all bardic performances completely silent, with only visual components instead of auditory, you can’t take that archetype with an archetype that alters or replaces any of the sub-features.It depends on if the FAQ is using the in game definition of "alters" or the natural language version. Note that in an archetype, an ability will say "this alters X-ability" or "this replaces Y-ability". Meanwhile, the Hexcrafter's Hex Arcana ability doesn't have language in it that says it "alters" or "replaces" anything. The FAQ would be more clear if it replaced the keyword "alters" with a non-keyword like "changes".
We have been told by Mark that an ability doesn't need the wording "this alters" to alter something. That wording is something new that they are trying to add to be more clear, but that even without the wording it does alter if the ability is altering it.
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(Also, on the generic comparison, the defensive difference is often overblown. If you are a strength magus with 18 strength, 14 dex, 12 con, 14 Int, 10 Wis 8 Cha, your AC only ever needs to be one or two points behind the Dex magus.
At level 1, Str starts with 14 dex+chain shirt=AC 16. 17 if you take dodge with one of those extra feats you have.
At level 1, Dex starts with 18 dex+chain shirt or 20 dex+studded leather=AC 18
Yes - 2 AC behind along with 2 reflex & 1 HP. (since the DEX build can afford a 14 Con or go elf for +2 Int).
By level 8 or so, Str has 14 dex+breastplate=AC 18. 19 if you take dodge.
Dex probably has 22 Dex+mithral chain shirt=AC 20.
(Both will have magic chain shirt/breastplate, amulet of natural armor, etc but those will be the same across the builds so it won't matter).
Why isn't the Dex build in a mithril breastplate?
At level 8 the Dex build will be up 2 AC if the STR build takes dodge (reducing the feat advantage) along with (assuming 22 DEX with belt) +4 Reflex & +8 HP (or higher INT).
By level 12, the strength magus can rock mithral fullplate to even the score with whatever kind of celestial armor the dex build is choosing to use in order to take advantage of its crazy high dexterity.
You mean like celestial plate, keeping him 2-4 points ahead? Plus 6ish reflex, 12hp, and 6sih initiative.
Of course - all of this is ignoring the DEX Kensai, whose AC can get nearly as stupidly high as a monk's.
The money a dex build uses to take advantage of his dexterity can be used by the strength build to do something else.
Consider your wealth and equipment availability. If you're in a large party, then your wealth be lower than expected. If you don't have a magic item crafter, an item your build requires may be hard to come by.
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Well, as someone playing a high dex character in a mythic game, I say go dex. Armor master means either elven chain or celestial armor are going to be a +11 armor bonus when fully enhanced that doesn't have any armor check penalty or max dex. If your GM's nice enough to allow mythic in a campaign that's not built for it, he's probably going to be nice enough to allow you to find one of these armors for purchase, eventually. Or, you could just say nuts to that and take armor master 3 times and wear good old full plate with no armor check penalty and no max dex. I wouldn't suggest it, as it's only slightly better than taking it once and using one of the previously mentioned armors, but if they're just not available...
Good to know. My GM has approved the stacking of the archetypes, Gisher, so I have no worry about that. ...
Good. I'd have hated to have you spend lots of time developing the character only to find that a fairly subtle issue made it invalid.
well they both have their merits.
With the crazy high point buy you have, a strength magus is much more viable. A lower point buy means you need to be more creative.
Dervish dance is a way to get dex to damage for a magus. I have seen almost every magus use that.
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Since it's a mythic game, you can just take mythic weapon finesse. Now that I think about it, a dex build is probably better in mythic. If it were a non-mythic game, I'd say the two are pretty equivalent.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32
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Ok so a lot of points have been made for both sides. One thing that was really pushing me towards Dex was Flight Will choosing Dex have a significant effect on my Flight checks enough to make a difference. Or will maxing out flight do?
In my experience, it's very rare for Fly checks to have a DC over 15. At level seven (when you can cast the spell), with only 12 dexterity, you pass them on a 4 or higher. At level ten, you pass them automatically.
So that's not that hard, really.
Ok so a lot of points have been made for both sides. One thing that was really pushing me towards Dex was Flight Will choosing Dex have a significant effect on my Flight checks enough to make a difference. Or will maxing out flight do?In my experience, it's very rare for Fly checks to have a DC over 15. At level seven (when you can cast the spell), with only 12 dexterity, you pass them on a 4 or higher. At level ten, you pass them automatically.
So that's not that hard, really.
The only ones that fear to fail fly checks are because or armor check penalties
they are equal as far as bonus s are.
Bladebound replaces the third level Magus Arcana, and Hexcrafter alters the entire Magus Arcana ability by adding Accursed Strike to the list. I don't know if that matters to your GM, of course.I don't think it's fair to say that adding a hex to the list "alters the way the parent class feature works" (quoted from the PRD). Even allowing hexes in place of arcana doesn't really change "how it works," though I agree, the whole thing is pushing the boundary. Strangely, I haven't seen this discussed much.
Either way, I'm in the DEX camp, and not surprisingly, I prefer the bladebound hexcrafter, too. My magus did not take many hexes, but flight is indispensable. I did the standard dervish dancer build and had a lot of fun with it. So much so my current investigator is DEX to damage, too (with fencing grace, however).
EDIT: formatting fixed.
Fair or not, per the FAQ it's not legal.
However, if something alters the way the parent class feature works, such as a mime archetype that makes all bardic performances completely silent, with only visual components instead of auditory, you can’t take that archetype with an archetype that alters or replaces any of the sub-features. This even applies for something as small as adding 1 extra round of bardic performance each day, adding an additional bonus feat to the list of bonus feats you can select, or adding an additional class skill to the class.
That's correct only I don't see it applying to the Hexcrafter. The Hexcrafter gain a class feature HexArcana. They still have Magus Arcana as well. I don't see anything in the text saying HexArcana replace Magus Arcana.
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It depends on how far you expect this campaign to go and how badly you want to optimize. Strength is probably better overall at low level but dexterity far overshadows it at middling to high levels. If you expect the campaign to go to the end and your DM is the sort to tailor his encounters to challenge the PCs, dexterity is probably the better choice.
If you expect the campaign will peter out halfway through or the DM is only going to run the encounters from the book, a dexterity-based magus is overkill and you'll end up trouncing the whole thing by yourself.
They still have Magus Arcana as well. I don't see anything in the text saying HexArcana replace Magus Arcana.
It doesn't have to replace magus arcana, merely adding to it counts per this part: adding an additional bonus feat to the list of bonus feats you can select. Adding a hex arcana to your list is equivalent to adding a feat to your bonus feat list in terms of "altering." I got tripped up on this at first, too.
After the numbers I ran, they are pretty identical early on, except that STR gets much better later on when Monstrous Physique becomes an option.
DEX builds later on get wrecked by low CMD.
str and dex both contribute to cmd, so that doesn't make sense
It would make sense if @SecretWizard is assuming that the dex user dumps strength, while the str user has a decent dex.
Contrast 18 Dex/7 Str (+2 net) vs 14 Dex/18 Str (+6 net). +4 is a big swing, and Str dumping is pretty common among dex Magi.
The points the DEX user gets on point buy usually amount to better Will saves (non-issue) or better HP (again, probably counteracted by the STR Magus getting Toughness with his two free feats).
The DEX user does have better Init though, that's for sure, but overall CMD should be much lower to the DEX user, particularly because the STR user gets Belts of Perfection rather than focusing purely on DEX/CON.
I find that at higher levels CMD can mean much more than HP, since a grapple, a disarm or a trip can be deadly.
They still have Magus Arcana as well. I don't see anything in the text saying HexArcana replace Magus Arcana.It doesn't have to replace magus arcana, merely adding to it counts per this part: adding an additional bonus feat to the list of bonus feats you can select. Adding a hex arcana to your list is equivalent to adding a feat to your bonus feat list in terms of "altering." I got tripped up on this at first, too.
But it doesn't add to magus arcana. Hex Arcana allows you to select Hex when you get a magus arcana.
I find that at higher levels CMD can mean much more than HP, since a grapple, a disarm or a trip can be deadly.True, but so can having a better reflex save & touch AC as Create Pit and other such spells can be pretty deadly too.
You are mostly flying at that point. I find reflex is wasted on classes without Evasion, you better have energy resistance prebuffed instead.
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You are mostly flying at that point. I find reflex is wasted on classes without Evasion, you better have energy resistance prebuffed instead.I find that at higher levels CMD can mean much more than HP, since a grapple, a disarm or a trip can be deadly.True, but so can having a better reflex save & touch AC as Create Pit and other such spells can be pretty deadly too.
At what levels? I mostly play 1-10ish (the system starts to break down much past 10) so perhaps our experiences are too different. Besides - while Fort/Will are more common, there are other save or suck Reflex saves besides Create Pit. (Dazing Fireball anyone?)
But it doesn't add to magus arcana. Hex Arcana allows you to select Hex when you get a magus arcana.They still have Magus Arcana as well. I don't see anything in the text saying HexArcana replace Magus Arcana.It doesn't have to replace magus arcana, merely adding to it counts per this part: adding an additional bonus feat to the list of bonus feats you can select. Adding a hex arcana to your list is equivalent to adding a feat to your bonus feat list in terms of "altering." I got tripped up on this at first, too.
Yes before Magus arcana could only select magus arcana. Now magus arcana can be subbed for hexes. Thus magus arcana has been changed because now you can get a hex instead of it.
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While a DEX build will have more AC than a STR build. A Magus has a bunch of defensive spells he can cast. Blink, Displacement, MIRROR IMAGE, etc, etc.
An the action economy isn't too bad to buff thanks to Spell Combat.
I'm playing a level 11 STR Magus with armor class of 20. I don't get hit too often.
But it doesn't add to magus arcana.
Not true, it adds accursed strike, a magus arcana.
Hex Arcana allows you to select Hex when you get a magus arcana.
Yes, so now the magus arcana class feature is different than "select a magus arcana," it's "select a magus arcana or hex arcana."
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While a DEX build will have more AC than a STR build. A Magus has a bunch of defensive spells he can cast. Blink, Displacement, MIRROR IMAGE, etc, etc.
An the action economy isn't too bad to buff thanks to Spell Combat.
I'm playing a level 11 STR Magus with armor class of 20. I don't get hit too often.
Blink is really underrated as a magus buff. It's all in one protection (area attacks, targeted spells, melee and ranged attacks) and the attack buff partially offsets the miss chance that is its downside. If you are attacking with touch attack spells--particularly multitouch spells like frostbite, the 20% miss chance shouldn't hurt your spells too much. Just deliver them with the next attack instead.
At what levels? I mostly play 1-10ish (the system starts to break down much past 10) so perhaps our experiences are too different. Besides - while Fort/Will are more common, there are other save or suck Reflex saves besides Create Pit. (Dazing Fireball anyone?)
If you can take extra arcana at 5th level for your bonus feat (I don't remember if you can) or wait till 6th with your regular magus arcana choice, then flight hex .
Regarding the mythic paths, I would definitely look at dual paths champion and archmage. Lots of cool stuff in both. The mystic dodge is incredible, and the champion movement stuff is great.