Speaking as a guy who has never read a comic book but likes well made super hero movies, Marvel's larger movies are getting to unwieldy with characters. The first Avengers movie was awesome partially because it had a decent but not huge team. As much as I liked civil war there were too many major characters. The nonsense that the infinity war movies could have 60-70 major characters would be completely unworkable.60-70 major characters?
Who are we expecting to see in it? How many more are going to be introduced before then?
Similarly, I would consider Civil War to have 4-5 major characters heroes (Cap, Tony, WS, BP, and possibly BW). Everyone else is in it as side characters. Just because named characters exist and have their own story doesn't mean they are major in a crossover. Spiderman and Antman, for instance, were basically minor cameos.
Drah's right that I don't see how they could harness the power of the Power stone accurately enough to ensure they create the Nova Force before Thanos comes along and takes it. (Cause you know it's on the list.)
So while I am a little bummed they are space cops, I still hope maybe down the road, if there is a kind "reboot" coming, they fix that little thing. Whether or not said reboot also includes Mutants, Eternals, Galactus, FF, Skrulls, and/or Shi'ar...we'll have to wait and see.
The X-Force in the comics was just a small group of empowered people that protected a small bubble city that has no relation to the Xandar of the MCU save for name. If the massive X-Force as seen in the movie are all given the power of the Nova Force, than the Guardians of the Galaxy can just hang up their shingles.
For now they are pretty much set up to be the Interstellar Gotham PD to the Guardian's Batman just as they are. Empowering them would be counterproductive storywise.
Keep this in mind this is the Marvel Cinematics Universe... not the Comics 'Verse where Marvel is killing off the X-Men because they don't feel like advertising a competitior's property.
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Jeff,
Because I also want the Phoenix Force and it's hard to get without mutants.
We've already had one Phoenix movie, and saying that it stank is the kindest I can be towards it.
The first Avengers movie worked because the individual characters all had their own storylines in other movies, and finally, BAM! you get all of them at once. It's a lot of investment and buildup for a big finale. But now they're all there, and there's nowhere left to go. Just adding MOAR! random superheroes to the mix, like it will make a difference, still makes any post-Avengers I mashups a letdown for everyone who isn't a comics geek.
I really wouldn't say Black Widow, Hawkeye, or Nick Fury had their own storylines in other movies.. They had a few cameos, but the AVENGERS wasn't REALLY as much a 'coming together' as people want to claim.
If done carefully these things can still work.. not saying they WILL, but they still can. If Justice League can treat their newly introduced characters like the X-men does... Name, power, chance to shine... then it will have worked. Just because marvel went with a whole list of origin movies first... it can still work the other way around too.
From an outsider's viewpoint, the Marvel universe seems to me to be absolutely overrun with superheroes now; it's amazing there's room for anyone else. When Iron Man stops for a cup of coffee, the barrista turns out to be MegaBarrista, who is ALSO a costumed superhero! (And all the other Starbucks employees worldwide are agents of Hydra, of League only works for a cartoon. Trying to make a series of movies course.) Keeping the X-men separate, in their own little universe, is helping to mitigate that somewhat (yeah, I know it's contractual rather than strategic, but it's also a stroke of good fortune). Keeping Spiderman and all his assorted supervillains, and Fantastic Four and their nemeses separate helps, too.
That has always been a joke about Marvel's New York... but it is an exaggerated issue. ESPECIALLY in MCU where the heroes are flying all over the world. Iron Man 1 dealt with the middle east, Iron Man 2 was in New York, Iron Man 3 was in California... They do spread things around a bit.
Also... even counting the hundreds of comic characters with powers in new York.... My search says there are 8.5 MILLION people in New York City... so the percentage is STILL really small. ;)
We've already had one Phoenix movie, and saying that it stank is the kindest I can be towards it.Jeff,
Because I also want the Phoenix Force and it's hard to get without mutants.
That may be Drah but I still want a reboot! Deadpool got a reboot, why can't the Phoenix Force?!
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It also wasn't Marvel who did it it was Fox and comparing fox and Marvel studios feels like comparing hulk hogan to the Incredible hulk. (still don't know why they had to invent powers for apocalypse when the character already is loaded down.)
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honestly I'm bored with Phoenix. Seems like that's the only X-story anyone wants to tell. We've seen in the movies, we've seen it in the 90's cartoon, the anime dealt with it... it's drawn out every few months whenever anyone looks at Jean Grey...
Honestly, it was REALLY a story for it's time and really doesn't translate well. The hellfire club corruption and her turn on the X-men was really good... but that story should have ended with Prof. X defeating her after she schooled the rest of the team.
Everything that happened after the alien Legion of Superheroes beamed them up and decided on a tournament on the moon really jumped the shark.
And yet, every time they try to tell a 'modernized' NON-aliens on the moon version it just sucks...
I still like the phoenix and they need aliens.
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Yeah fox has this weird formula where they think if they get to far out there (like outer limits out there) they will automatically make a crappy movie. To be fair I don't think they need help from aliens to make a crappy movie they do that fine on their own.
Vid,
They make crappy movies just fine on their own, no question.
How much better would the silver samurai movie had been if it wasn't the old man and they actually took wolverines healing factor away and made him fight the old mans son in a silver samurai suit That way the morale of the story wouldn't of been don't help strangers they will come back and kill you for it.
And for the apocalypse one like I said He doesn't need you to invent powers for him! Also Xavier should of Stomped him on the mental battlefield. Would of been to cool to have them fighting a giant
Apoc and then Xavier fight him in the astral and Xavier get huge instead. At least the weapon X escape was a lot better in that one then that horrible one that's name I refuse to say.
Does that count as off topic?
Vid,
No but I disagree that in a psychic fight Xavier would have trounced Apocalypse. I do think Charles would have won, yes but not as decisively as you mentioned.
Plus the fact I'm pretty sure Apocalyse has proven his mind pretty much protected against psychic attacks. They didn't need to invent powers, I'll agree, but considering his near limitless powers anyway, I'd like to see him kill 5 million with just his ability alone.
Hmm that is fair I was thinking with the distraction of the other mutants and with the set up of apoc letting him in. I guess it is a bit iffy still.
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It's always iffy unless you have a strong understanding of ALL the characters, the stories and such. Not saying you don't, just Fox doesn't.
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That may be Drah but I still want a reboot! Deadpool got a reboot, why can't the Phoenix Force?!We've already had one Phoenix movie, and saying that it stank is the kindest I can be towards it.Jeff,
Because I also want the Phoenix Force and it's hard to get without mutants.
Why should it?... the Wolverine and X-Men movies have managed to kill off any interest I have in those characters. The Phoenix movie was an absolute travesty to the original classic material. It's bad enough when Scott is killed off screen, it's far worse when that's the high point of the film. I would not think of paying money for a second attempt, that's how bad the first one has scarred me.
Deadpool got one movie... as did the Phoenix Force, so the latter isn't "owed" anything, and I want the portion of my life I spent watching it.
That may be Drah but I still want a reboot! Deadpool got a reboot, why can't the Phoenix Force?!We've already had one Phoenix movie, and saying that it stank is the kindest I can be towards it.Jeff,
Because I also want the Phoenix Force and it's hard to get without mutants.
Why should it?... the Wolverine and X-Men movies have managed to kill off any interest I have in those characters. The Phoenix movie was an absolute travesty to the original classic material. It's bad enough when Scott is killed off screen, it's far worse when that's the high point of the film. I would not think of paying money for a second attempt, that's how bad the first one has scarred me.
Deadpool got one movie... as did the Phoenix Force, so the latter isn't "owed" anything, and I want the portion of my life I spent watching it.
And I thought I had strong feelings against that movie...
You may not like the way it's going, but Marvel's new approach to superhero movies has been a far bigger success than anything else ever done with them. I'm certainly not coming at it from an outsider perspective, so I could be biased, but judging by how well they're doing, I doubt all the non-comics geeks have been driven away.
Avengers 1: $207G opening. Avengers 2: $191G opening. Civil War: $179G opening. Yeah, these movies currently still make a ton of money, but it's declining fast.
I really wouldn't say Black Widow, Hawkeye, or Nick Fury had their own storylines in other movies..
They also aren't superheroes.
I really wouldn't say Black Widow, Hawkeye, or Nick Fury had their own storylines in other movies..They also aren't superheroes.
Smile when you say that?
Why aren't they? They have as many superpowers as Bruce Wayne. Nick Fury has access to even more gadgets. And Black Widow can kick some serious butt.
And they've faced and triumphed over their own incredible challenges and dangers.
So what excludes them from the club?
Apparently in Kirth's mind, they can't fight Galactus I guess.
Also Drah, I understand you point even if I don't agree with it.
Why aren't they? They have as many superpowers as Bruce Wayne. Nick Fury has access to even more gadgets. And Black Widow can kick some serious butt.
OK, remember I'm not a comics fan. I'm a random person who said, "Ooh, let's watch this movie and eat some popcorn." From that perspective, Avengers 1 gave me a movie about a Norse God, a guy in a robot suit that amps him up to the point where he can go toe-to-toe with a god, and a green monster that can smash evil gods like rag dolls. Oh, and a normal guy who belonged to the archery club in college, who has (on-screen) no exceptional abilities at all and spends the whole movie mind-controlled by the bad guys. And you're telling me they're all equal partners?
The only reason I smile is because it's so much like this superhero movie.
I really wouldn't say Black Widow, Hawkeye, or Nick Fury had their own storylines in other movies..They also aren't superheroes.Smile when you say that?
Why aren't they? They have as many superpowers as Bruce Wayne. Nick Fury has access to even more gadgets. And Black Widow can kick some serious butt.
And they've faced and triumphed over their own incredible challenges and dangers.
So what excludes them from the club?
Aren't they more like superspies? Sort of like how Cap is a super solider. That doesn't necessarily exclude them being superheroes, but I can see how someone can make the distinction.
Aren't they more like superspies? Sort of like how Cap is a super solider. That doesn't necessarily exclude them being superheroes, but I can see how someone can make the distinction.I really wouldn't say Black Widow, Hawkeye, or Nick Fury had their own storylines in other movies..They also aren't superheroes.Smile when you say that?
Why aren't they? They have as many superpowers as Bruce Wayne. Nick Fury has access to even more gadgets. And Black Widow can kick some serious butt.
And they've faced and triumphed over their own incredible challenges and dangers.
So what excludes them from the club?
It takes a very narrow view of what the word 'superhero' means. It can't mean Super powers... because Green Arrow and Batman are very popular 'superheroes'. Avengers has always been considered a superhero team, in a superhero comic.. and yeah, Hawkeye has been consistently a member since the 60's. Heck, even Tony Stark is a normal guy without his tech gear...
Some people only want to include Superman and Spider-man in the title.. but the genre has never been that limited. There are a LOT of different types of characters that fall under that umbrella.
Jeff is right. One good punch from the Hulk right through that chest plate, Tony Stark is sipping mia tis with the angels. Maybe.
Jeff,
You obviously forgot about Worldbreaker Hulk. But yeah Stark's power is his brain.
The problem with deciding who isn't and who is a super hero is the fundamental problem with the accords. Where do you draw the line on who comes under the accords. If we use Captain America as the dividing line then Black Widow, Hawkeye and Iron Man should not fall under the accords. Without his armor Tony Stark is just a genius with an aptitude for engineering. If high IQ is a mark for being regulated by the accords than Professor Hawking in the real world would fall under them.
Saint B,
The Accords themselves aren't just for powered individuals. It is also for creations (like Ultron) to be limited in scope so that people don't feel like T2 will happen or something worse.
yeah, the point of the accords was the same thing as it was in the first Civil War book.
You can't take the law into your own hands. Nobody really cares if Tony Stark is a super genius. They don't care if he wants to develop artificial hearts or Hovercar technology. Redesign the next computer technology and change the world... they're totally fine with (his competitors may complain... but the world doesn't care). Designing super weapons and flying himself to the middle east and blowing things up with an American accent?? THAT they have a problem with.
Black Widow and Hawkeye are super athletes with bows fighting under SHIELD training and missions... Awesome. Going Rogue and doing whatever they want in foreign countries... the world doesn't like that. If the Avengers were still under SHIELD and letting Fury or Coulson call the shots with government checks and balances... then there wouldn't have been a need for the Accords. Instead Tony designed an army of Iron suits to quell a disruptive population in another country....And that didn't go over well.
It's not about what they're skills are... it's about how they're using them and can anyone stop them if they have to...
Yep. If people use their skills to heal the sick and cure the dying, I think most governments wouldn't complain.
Use that same technology to leverage change? That might be different story.
And Hawkeye is basically Green Arrow, not "a normal guy who belonged to the archery club in college", though as I said, he hasn't been well served by the movies.
Remember, I'm talking as someone who has only the movies to go by. To rake in billions, you need to appeal to the casual viewers as well as the diehard comic geeks.
I have no idea who Green Arrow is. And this whole recent side-conversation about "accords" made me winder if Honda had started an advertising tie-in with Marvel.
yeah, the point of the accords was the same thing as it was in the first Civil War book.
You can't take the law into your own hands. Nobody really cares if Tony Stark is a super genius. They don't care if he wants to develop artificial hearts or Hovercar technology. Redesign the next computer technology and change the world... they're totally fine with (his competitors may complain... but the world doesn't care). Designing super weapons and flying himself to the middle east and blowing things up with an American accent?? THAT they have a problem with.
Black Widow and Hawkeye are super athletes with bows fighting under SHIELD training and missions... Awesome. Going Rogue and doing whatever they want in foreign countries... the world doesn't like that. If the Avengers were still under SHIELD and letting Fury or Coulson call the shots with government checks and balances... then there wouldn't have been a need for the Accords. Instead Tony designed an army of Iron suits to quell a disruptive population in another country....And that didn't go over well.
It's not about what they're skills are... it's about how they're using them and can anyone stop them if they have to...
Oh, I think if they had been under SHIELD, thanks to the events in Winter Soldier and SHIELD's massive black eye due to Hydra infiltration, there would have been a tremendous problem. In fact, I'd say it's Captain America's disillusionment with SHIELD thanks to Winter Soldier that makes his opposition to the Sokovia Accords in Civil War inevitable. He doesn't want to make the Avengers state actors, subject to the political decisions of the state - even if that state is, effectively, the UN. If the UN Security Council is any model, they'd never be deployed or their deployment would always be viewed as political. Rather, in order to actually be effective, they need to be independent of governmental control.
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Which is kind of an odd stance for the Patriotic hero of WWII to take a couple of adventures after his revival.
At least in the comics he'd been back for a long time before he got that disillusioned with the government.
Not really. The secret government apparatus pre-World War II and after (which is what Cap fell into after being woken up) are extremely different and Cap's experience with it went from being focused on defeating the Nazis (something of pretty obvious moral characters) to being really byzantine, double-dealing, and totally infiltrated by guys who make the Nazis look 'quaint' yet could be working at the desk right next to you. Yeah, I can see a pretty rapid disillusionment coming on from that one.
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Not really. The secret government apparatus pre-World War II and after (which is what Cap fell into after being woken up) are extremely different and Cap's experience with it went from being focused on defeating the Nazis (something of pretty obvious moral characters) to being really byzantine, double-dealing, and totally infiltrated by guys who make the Nazis look 'quaint' yet could be working at the desk right next to you. Yeah, I can see a pretty rapid disillusionment coming on from that one.Which is kind of an odd stance for the Patriotic hero of WWII to take a couple of adventures after his revival.
At least in the comics he'd been back for a long time before he got that disillusioned with the government.
Yeah, Cap's always been patriotic towards the idea of America, not necessarily the current government or institutions in charge of it.
I mean, in the comics Cap tried to take down Richard Nixon back in the day for Christ's sake.
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Let's not forget that his very first mission as Captain America was to rescue Bucky and the Howling Commandos directly AGAINST his superior officer's commands.
Cap has always been a 'big picture hero' not one bogged down with red tape and orders. Always about the American Dream.. not the American reality. He follows his conscience and does what he knows is right.
I have no surprise at all that he would be against people telling him when and who he was allowed to save.
Thank you Jeff for helping me out with Kirth's memory problems.
In any case I'm still waiting to see how they work in Captain Marvel's origin.
The problem with deciding who isn't and who is a super hero is the fundamental problem with the accords. Where do you draw the line on who comes under the accords. If we use Captain America as the dividing line then Black Widow, Hawkeye and Iron Man should not fall under the accords. Without his armor Tony Stark is just a genius with an aptitude for engineering. If high IQ is a mark for being regulated by the accords than Professor Hawking in the real world would fall under them.While I do get the difficulty with things like the accords, you're kind of missing the point with Stark. He doesn't have a high IQ. He's completely off the charts. Hawking doesn't begin to compare. He whipped up fundamental basic science breakthroughs essentially alone in a prison. He does this kind of thing pretty routinely. He can do this of course because he's in a comic book world and they basically ignore how science and technology actually work.
That's what I mean by his brain is his superpower.If Professor Hawking was building super powered AI robots and exoskeleton suits for himself using an entirely new power source, they'd be regulating him too. But he's not. Nobody real is.
Just like skilled acrobats, martial artists and archers don't get to the point where they can take on practically any number of regular trained troops or cops or thugs without much trouble.
Because they take their skills to the point of being "super".
I read an article comparing Intellect in various forms of media I wish I could find it i'd post it. Basically literature has some of the most advanced society out there (in TV I know Dr. Who's time lords followed by Start trek is most advanced) but as far as individual int No one in any other form of media comes close to the level of intelligence that the top tier superheros in comics have. you literally can't touch people like Stark and Richards, Luther too for that matter. They are just so far over the scale you couldn't even quantify it.
Intellect is power. Also, I still rather we get a more cohesive MCU with FF stuff.
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I agree I wish If nothing else for FF to be in the marvel U mostly for DOOM and the awkward moment with Steve rogers meets the human torch.
I was thinking more Galactus and Kang but okay!
I was thinking more Galactus and Kang but okay!
They are good too But Doom is where its at.
Edit: plus after FF2 I'm gun shy about Galactus... stupid pet cloud
I was thinking more Galactus and Kang but okay!
The MCU really does need to bring in Kang at some point. He might not be as popular as Ultron or Thanos but he's still an Avengers staple character.