The homebrew item I have in mind would be a wondrous or alchemical item, I haven't decided which, but fundamentally you pour multiple potions into the bottle but can drink all the potions together as the same action as drinking a single potion.
This is because some potions naturally go together, like Enlarge Person gives a huge and deep threatened area. But the penalty to dexterity means even with combat reflexes you may be easily overwhelmed with many guys running at you per round. So also in the mix would be Line in The Sand.
Alchemical vs Magical
Both have pros and cons. Magical would obviously be re-usable and its pricing is a bit easier to figure out but then you have the worry of dropping it and remembering to pick it back up. An alchemical item would be easier to include as it's something anyone could craft with enough time and effort and it would be disposable.
Something like an Alchemical item "Double-dose-bottle"
"Pour two potions into this compact squeezable bottle with two chambers that allow you to consume two potions in the same time it would take you to consume one potion to have both spell effects occur simultaneously. This item is destroyed after use. The price does not include the cost of the potions loaded into them."
I'd like to include this as trying to get a dynamic of combatants and casters into a healthy buffing relationship rarely seems to work, especially not going to waste their precious time on low level buffs. Also, I like to drop potions so that no party is too tied to a caster buffing in any particular way.
It doesn't depend on anything except finding potions and deciding how to combine them. Also, as GM, I can introduce novel combinations in a pre-mixed form.
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You have to remember that potions are basically spells in a bottle. So being able to drink two different potions at once is like being able to cast two different spells at once, which is very powerful. You would have to make this item very expensive as a result.
Your design goal doesn't make much sense to me. If the problem is that casters aren't casting buffs on combatants, wouldn't you want a solution that encourages it rather than discourage it?
Also, remember that most of the action economy of getting buffs exist for very good reasons. It rewards preparedness and punishes lack of it since you have to spend a turn to drink a potion if you came to the fight unprepared. However, it also puts a limit on how much you can buff yourself before a fight. Each round spent buffing is one round of duration lost for any existing buff.
Unless you are an alchemist with the appropriate class ability or took potion glutton, use the latest potion miscibility table. I'm subtlely campaigning to get a Dev to make a new table for Pathfinder.
These mixer bottles could be stoneware with corks and a special metal collar that controls which chamber is selected. Pull off the collar
using the pull tab) and they mix(making this the last use). As a miscellaneous magic item this would be expensive and probably only used this way against the big bosses.
Effectively you would have to price this thing like the lesser metamagic rod of quicken. It gives the ability to cast 2 spells in the same round, which is the same thing the quicken rod does. The lesser rod works with spells up to 3rd level, the same as the limit for potions. The fact that non-magic characters can use it too more than balances the fact that some spells are off limits for potions.
So sadly from a game balance standpoint, this thing would have to be limited to 3 uses per day and cost 35000 gp...
Cyrad wrote: You have to remember that potions are basically spells in a bottle. So being able to drink two different potions at once is like being able to cast two different spells at once, which is very powerful. You would have to make this item very expensive as a result.
Your design goal doesn't make much sense to me. If the problem is that casters aren't casting buffs on combatants, wouldn't you want a solution that encourages it rather than discourage it?
Also, remember that most of the action economy of getting buffs exist for very good reasons. It rewards preparedness and punishes lack of it since you have to spend a turn to drink a potion if you came to the fight unprepared. However, it also puts a limit on how much you can buff yourself before a fight. Each round spent buffing is one round of duration lost for any existing buff.
I kinda think potions would help with a buff-focus, by letting non-casters know how great some buffing spells are actually puts them in a situation to ask. The dynamic I usually see is the non-casters are unaware of most buffs (especially low level buffs) either personally as players or their PC doesn't know so they think they shouldn't ask, so don't know to ask for them and casters don't know to prepare them.
Casters just end up rolling with rather weaksauce blasting spells.
I've seen other magic items which are pretty free-wheeling with potion use, Accelerated Drinker is only a trait and reduces it to only a move action and potions inherently reduce any casting time which is less than 1 minute to the time it takes to imbibe. Sipping jacket reduces even further for only a swift action per round of use.
The thing about the action economy is too many low levels spells are worth the price but not worth the time or the slot. Consider that haste is one spell slot (level 3) that takes only one standard action to affect essentially the entire party plus mounts and many summons as well. Things like Enlarge Person get lost in the shuffle, that's a 1-round casting time AND a touch to finish.
Spells that usually take priority are:
-Featherfall (never know when you'll need it)
-Vanish (as you get to higher CL this can be effectively as valuable as L2 spell Invisibility)
-Feather Step (especially if you're using things like Stone Call)
-Obscuring Mist (great catch-all defence)
Dazzling blade is a kind of buff spell, and that's usually what takes precedent over most other buffing spells because it's so easy to get out and so generally useful. Also there are some buffs that only a caster can give like Peace Bond or Floating Disk.
So many buffs get lost in the shuffle.
A buffer or healer makes an excellent NPC party member.
They get their cut of the treasure and XPs by making the leed fighter an unstoppable engine of destruction. I've created an alterationist mage before. By enlarging the barbarian, they increase their cover and the amount of damage the barbarian does.
If, on the other hand, the rouge studying the door feels it's hot, the barbarian might want to mix fire resistance with bears endurance before going in. Once again the buffer can use his best combat buff, be it enlarge, haste, or whatever.
Lets consider the non-magical multi dose potion bottle. A double stoneware vial with a wall and the cork keeping the two potions separated. The user pulls the cork and drinks both as a single action. The twin vial can be washed and reused. You can see the need for the potion miscibility table to be brought back. The difficulty of making such a thing would make it nearly as expensive as the actual magic item. I'm not sure you could just pour the stoneware.
Kalridian wrote: Effectively you would have to price this thing like the lesser metamagic rod of quicken. It gives the ability to cast 2 spells in the same round, which is the same thing the quicken rod does. The lesser rod works with spells up to 3rd level, the same as the limit for potions. The fact that non-magic characters can use it too more than balances the fact that some spells are off limits for potions.
Yet you can already activate two spells by a potion in one round. Accelerated Drinker reduces drinking to a move action and you can have two move actions per turn. And Sipping Jacket is even more generous, though with some downsides.
"So sadly from a game balance standpoint, this thing would have to be limited to 3 uses per day and cost 35000 gp..."
That's just so ridiculous, it's obviously not as good as an actual rod of quickening, how can there be a 7 fold disparity in price between Quickening Rod and Sipping Jacket's price. Quickening rod applies even to offensive spells, spells which could never be in a potion.
Now ask yourself: does that REALLY sound balanced?
Paying your entire wealth you'd have gained by level-8 on such a thing? Does it actually sound balanced that "I have no armour weapons, wondrous items, but i can drink two potions at once!"
For one, quickened rod applies to spells being cast by a caster, that's something very different, a caster doesn't need to spend any money to prepare and cast spells. Potions in themselves cost something or at least should have a cost. Potions already self limit in how a level 3 potion is 750gp.
Goth Guru wrote: A buffer or healer makes an excellent NPC party member.
They get their cut of the treasure and XPs by making the leed fighter an unstoppable engine of destruction. I've created an alterationist mage before. By enlarging the barbarian, they increase their cover and the amount of damage the barbarian does.
If, on the other hand, the rouge studying the door feels it's hot, the barbarian might want to mix fire resistance with bears endurance before going in. Once again the buffer can use his best combat buff, be it enlarge, haste, or whatever.
Lets consider the non-magical multi dose potion bottle. A double stoneware vial with a wall and the cork keeping the two potions separated. The user pulls the cork and drinks both as a single action. The twin vial can be washed and reused. You can see the need for the potion miscibility table to be brought back. The difficulty of making such a thing would make it nearly as expensive as the actual magic item. I'm not sure you could just pour the stoneware.
Could you link to a reference source on the "potion miscibility table" I can't find that.
@Alex Trebek's Stunt Double
Honestly, much of what you say doesn't make much sense to me.
If problem is that martial players lack the system mastery of knowing available spells, giving them a Potion Bottle of Cheating Action Economy doesn't really fix that. And if the casters don't want to cast spells on the martials, that's their prerogative.
Yes, there's items that let you cheat action economy with drinking potions. However, all of them have restrictions and limitations. Heck, Accelerated Drinker forces you to have the potion in your hand ahead of time and it's considered one of the best traits in the game. NONE of these items and abilities let you combine two spell effects together, which is very powerful.
You're proposing fixing a problem by introducing a very powerful itme that won't really fix anything at all.
Cyrad wrote: @Alex Trebek's Stunt Double
Honestly, much of what you say doesn't make much sense to me.
If problem is that martial players lack the system mastery of knowing available spells, giving them a Potion Bottle of Cheating Action Economy doesn't really fix that. And if the casters don't want to cast spells on the martials, that's their prerogative.
Yes, there's items that let you cheat action economy with drinking potions. However, all of them have restrictions and limitations. Heck, Accelerated Drinker forces you to have the potion in your hand ahead of time and it's considered one of the best traits in the game. NONE of these items and abilities let you combine two spell effects together, which is very powerful.
You're proposing fixing a problem by introducing a very powerful itme that won't really fix anything at all.
What do you think counts as "cheating"? Using the rule book exactly as prescribed? How it says Accelerated Drinker and Sipping Jacket work?
The rule book does not say a spell can NEVER take effect shorter than X amount of time unless Z cost is paid, quickened metamagic is just one way of many that spells may be cast differently.
"However, all of them have restrictions and limitations."
Now we are getting somewhere, what restrictions and/or limitations do you think would be appropriate... other than making it insanely expensive.
How about limiting it to potions of level 1 spells or lower? Seems pretty good, to make up for how lower level spells are just barely worth the time to cast or even imbibe. And the item destroys both potions if it isn't used within 24 hours.
I'd like to have a better option than pricing which seems to only serve the purpose of a de-facto ban from the game. Something which balances in the sense of limiting use, not making any use at all impossibly by affordability.
I'd allow it...
... and then invoke the classic Potion Miscibility Table from First Edition.
Dice - Result
01 - EXPLOSION! Internal damage is 6-60 h.p., those within a 5” radius take 1-10 h.p. if mixed externally, all in a 10’ radius take 4-24 hit points, no save.
02 – 03 - Lethal poison results, and imbiber is dead; if externally mixed, a poison gas cloud of 10’ diameter results, and all within it must save versus poison or die.
04 – 08 - Mild poison which causes nausea and loss of 1 point each of strength and dexterity for 5-20 rounds, no saving throw possible; one potion is cancelled, the other is at half strength and duration. (Use random determination for which is cancelled and which is at half efficacy.)
09 – 15 - Immiscible. Both potions totally destroyed, as one cancelled the other.
16 – 25 - Immiscible. One potion cancelled, but the other remains normal (random selection).
26 – 35 - Immiscible result which causes both potions to be at half normal efficacy when consumed
36 – 90 - Miscible. Potions work normally unless their effects are contradictory, e.g. diminution and growth, which will simply cancel each other.
91 – 99 - Compatible result which causes one potion (randomly determined) to have 150% normal efficacy. (You must determine if both effect and duration are permissible, or if only the duration should be extended.)
00 - DISCOVERY! The admixture of the two potions has caused a special formula which will cause one of the two potions only to function, but its effects will be permanent upon the imbiber. (Note that some harmful side effects could well result from this. . . )
Drahliana Moonrunner wrote: I'd allow it...
... and then invoke the classic Potion Miscibility Table from First Edition.
Dice - Result
01 - EXPLOSION! Internal damage is 6-60 h.p., those within a 5” radius take 1-10 h.p. if mixed externally, all in a 10’ radius take 4-24 hit points, no save.
02 – 03 - Lethal poison results, and imbiber is dead; if externally mixed, a poison gas cloud of 10’ diameter results, and all within it must save versus poison or die.
04 – 08 - Mild poison which causes nausea and loss of 1 point each of strength and dexterity for 5-20 rounds, no saving throw possible; one potion is cancelled, the other is at half strength and duration. (Use random determination for which is cancelled and which is at half efficacy.)
09 – 15 - Immiscible. Both potions totally destroyed, as one cancelled the other.
16 – 25 - Immiscible. One potion cancelled, but the other remains normal (random selection).
26 – 35 - Immiscible result which causes both potions to be at half normal efficacy when consumed
36 – 90 - Miscible. Potions work normally unless their effects are contradictory, e.g. diminution and growth, which will simply cancel each other.
91 – 99 - Compatible result which causes one potion (randomly determined) to have 150% normal efficacy. (You must determine if both effect and duration are permissible, or if only the duration should be extended.)
00 - DISCOVERY! The admixture of the two potions has caused a special formula which will cause one of the two potions only to function, but its effects will be permanent upon the imbiber. (Note that some harmful side effects could well result from this. . . )
This seems pretty fun (remember that? Fun?) any simple way to decide what the save is vs "poison"? I guess the DC of the potion as it was a spell with relevant DC so 10 + spell level + mental stat. I guess damage is 1d6 multiplied by 4 or 4d6 or something. I'd rather have the explosion than save-or-die poison.
I'll just go with that, just mix the potions together and roll. Thanks for the post! Sorry I didn't check this sooner Goth Guru who I think suggested the same thing without details.
Alex Trebek's Stunt Double wrote: What do you think counts as "cheating"? Using the rule book exactly as prescribed? How it says Accelerated Drinker and Sipping Jacket work?
The rule book does not say a spell can NEVER take effect shorter than X amount of time unless Z cost is paid, quickened metamagic is just one way of many that spells may be cast differently.
I'm using "cheating" as a metaphor. I'm talking about game design, not game rules written. Spells (and pretty much all abilities) are balanced around action economy. Any effect that lets you get an advantage on it will always be powerful. Especially for spell effects, which is why Quicken Spell has such a high cost and can't be used until around 9th level.
If you're the GM, you could alternatively just have the players discover elixirs that have combined spell effects. This way, you have much more control over it than giving them a bottle that lets them mix whatever potion they find.
I'm confused why you're so insistent on this magic item when I already explained why it won't solve what you perceive as an issue in your game. Heck, if there's an alchemist in the party, they'd probably keep the flask themselves instead of let the fighter use it.
Cyrad wrote:
I'm confused why you're so insistent on this magic item when I already explained why it won't solve what you perceive as an issue in your game. Heck, if there's an alchemist in the party, they'd probably keep the flask themselves instead of let the fighter use it.
Did you explain it?
You objected, I stated why that wasn't a problem then you commented again without referring to my reply to you. If you really don't understand then that's the time to excuse yourself, I'm not going to refuse to talk any more just because you don't understand.
Just to be clear, what I perceive as an issue is that the PCs aren't getting the buffs that they deserve, I'm fed up of being dependant on special-snowflake casters who are so utterly in love with blasting spells and maybe buffing themselves, and only themselves.
Potions will solve that, but potions will come and potions will go. Blasting spells will become less effective as enemies get better saves, buffs always work. When the potions run out and they can cast the same buffs then the conversations will naturally arise.
"Heck, if there's an alchemist in the party, they'd probably keep the flask themselves instead of let the fighter use it."
The party WILL find out about such treachery, and if the alchemist insists on being like that then I will ask the player to leave the table as I don't run PvP sessions. That's (1) totally unnecessary to withhold an item he can't use from a PC that can use it (2) it is knowingly and purposefully antagonistic. It will lead to fights, yet another session wasted with one person deciding to play silly bugger because of cliche'd ideas of character purpose.
Everyone knows that hogging magic items from other PCs that need them and explicitly had them introduced specifically for them is asking for a fight. I don't care about "my guy would do that" then you're guy is going to get kicked from the party. Good bye. Rule Number 1: You are a party of adventurers, no matter what you Role-Play, you must be to remain a party of adventurers.
Drahliana Moonrunner wrote: I'd allow it...
... and then invoke the classic Potion Miscibility Table from First Edition.
Dice - Result
01 - EXPLOSION! Internal damage is 6-60 h.p., those within a 5” radius take 1-10 h.p. if mixed externally, all in a 10’ radius take 4-24 hit points, no save.
02 – 03 - Lethal poison results, and imbiber is dead; if externally mixed, a poison gas cloud of 10’ diameter results, and all within it must save versus poison or die.
04 – 08 - Mild poison which causes nausea and loss of 1 point each of strength and dexterity for 5-20 rounds, no saving throw possible; one potion is cancelled, the other is at half strength and duration. (Use random determination for which is cancelled and which is at half efficacy.)
09 – 15 - Immiscible. Both potions totally destroyed, as one cancelled the other.
16 – 25 - Immiscible. One potion cancelled, but the other remains normal (random selection).
26 – 35 - Immiscible result which causes both potions to be at half normal efficacy when consumed
36 – 90 - Miscible. Potions work normally unless their effects are contradictory, e.g. diminution and growth, which will simply cancel each other.
91 – 99 - Compatible result which causes one potion (randomly determined) to have 150% normal efficacy. (You must determine if both effect and duration are permissible, or if only the duration should be extended.)
00 - DISCOVERY! The admixture of the two potions has caused a special formula which will cause one of the two potions only to function, but its effects will be permanent upon the imbiber. (Note that some harmful side effects could well result from this. . . )
This is it! Thanks.
It does need to be updated to Pathfinder, but pay the feat tax, take enough levels of alchemist, or experience the consequences.
The discovery, would be the most plausible potion, and destruction of the body would end even such a permanent effect. A healing potion can not really be made permanent. More permanent?
Alex Trebek's Stunt Double wrote:
Just to be clear, what I perceive as an issue is that the PCs aren't getting the buffs that they deserve, I'm fed up of being dependant on special-snowflake casters who are so utterly in love with blasting spells and maybe buffing themselves, and only themselves.
From the way you are talking, I'm feeling a great deal of tension between you and your players. Did you have a honest out-of-game talk with your players ? Before trying to trick or force your players to play how you want them to play, you should rise the issue with them and try, as a group, to find a solution for it.
If the players feel that there isn't enough incentive to buff their allies, then you can work with them to introduce an houserule that can encourage that.
If the players still don't want to buff others, then trying to force them to may very well make them even more opposed to it.
Back to you item proposition. I don't believe that it will fix what you are trying to fix. Your plan to play on introducing potion scarcity in order to create a dialogue between your players and have them agree on buffing each other. However, this trick may very well backfire on you; the players could decide that this scarcity is your fault and it will only increase the current tension; or, they could decide to simply buy/make potions and may end up mad at you if you refuse them to do that.
Moreover, the item you want to introduce doesn't actually encourage buffing others, it encourages buffing yourself. It could make your caster more willing to use spell for selfbuff (maybe), but not for buffing the other members. In addition, contrary at what you seem to think, such an item is useful for any character, not only martial/fighters. No wizard in his right mind would refuse a Fox's Cunning + Mage Armorpotion. As such, a Alchemist keeping such an item for himself, and using it, isn't that hard to imagine.
The point I was trying to make was, combat oriented personal spells are encouraging this divisive behavior. If most magic users could make potions of shield, they would make them and probably give them to the other characters for some future consideration. A potion of shield would only work if the character is not wielding an actual shield. Talk to your players and see if some sort of compromise is possible.
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