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After many years on these forums, reading post after post of people struggling to find the right set of house and/or optional rules for running their games, I thought I'd take a moment to share my group's setup, which has been very successful for us. Using these guidelines, our extended campaign has been going strong for almost three years. Here's how it works:
- Keep it simple. We use basic E6. Characters advance to 6th level, then gain a new feat every 3 experience points beyond that. This keeps combat fast and fun, curbs the absurdity of high-level magic, and allows even brand new characters to be useful and fun to play.
- Level quickly. Our experience system is based on sessions attended, much like PFS. However, instead of leveling up every 3 sessions, we use a gradient chart. It costs a number of experience points equal to your current level to advance to the next. This means you hit 6th level at exactly the same point you would in PFS (15 exp) but the earlier levels pass much faster. Yes, it means you reach 2nd level after only one game session!
- All for one. Borrowing another feature from PFS, all characters belong to a guild of sorts, though it's not strictly the Pathfinder Society. For your game, it can be anything, but the important part is that membership is mandatory. In effect, this allows us to run our Pathfinder game kind of like a Star Trek TV series. Not every character has to be present for the game to go on. You can mix and match available characters to easily accommodate for absences, character swaps, and new players joining the group.
- Short and sweet. Going with the former point, we try to keep most adventures to 1 session, though some can go longer if needed. This works well with a rotating cast of characters (and players) as well as a revolving schedule of DMs. At the end of each adventure, anyone who wants to can volunteer to run the next game.
- Get good. No evil characters. Sorry, but this one is non-negotiable. Neutral is fine, but we carefully limit the number of chaotic neutral characters.
- Means of production. Crafting and magic item creation are allowed, but the E6 restriction keeps it low-level. High-level magic exists in the game world, but it's not something that can be permanently obtained by the characters. While you can only cast up to 3rd level spells, you might find a scroll of raise dead out in the world somewhere. This allows DMs to carefully distribute interesting and fun rewards without opening up a Pandora's Box of high-level magic nonsense.
- The big chair. When you DM a game session, you earn 1 experience point, just like everyone else who attends. All DMs have the ability to establish canon, to permanently alter the game world. One adventure might involve a major city burning to the ground while another opens up a new territory to explore. DMs trust and respect each other to not do anything stupid, and anything that seems super crazy gets discussed between game sessions.
- Down with paperwork. Unlike PFS, there are no chronicle sheets, no restrictions on trading gold or items, and most other accounting has been eliminated. We don't track non-magical ammunition or basic rations. The players all trust and respect each other to not do stupid things, like claim to be carrying 1,000 arrows or 100 years' worth of rations. One caveat is that we don't allow players to trade gold or gear between their own characters. It's a gentlemen's agreement on the honor system, as we're quite aware there are clever ways around it.
- Rogue's gallery. Players can have multiple characters, but can only play one per game session. Most of us have several characters who have reached 6th level. Before we begin a game, we talk about which characters we'd like to bring along, usually picking the ones who will make a good party, but often selecting those with fun history together and lots of role-play opportunity.
- Embrace technology! Our DM has an iPad open to d20pfsrd at all times. We have a Google site where we post our characters, adventure summaries, house rules, maps, and other important information. When any of us are out of town, we use Roll20 to play. Before and after game sessions, we communicate regularly via email about rules questions, character advancement, who's DMing next, what characters everyone wants to play, dividing up treasure, etc.
This system has worked marvelously for managing an ongoing campaign over the years, especially one with a rotating roster of players. We're all adults, so no one is expected to run or attend every single game session, and these rules make it super easy to accommodate our varying schedules. Over the years, we've lost some players and added many others, and the transition has always gone smoothly.
I hope this helps anyone struggling to get or keep their game going! Cheers!
I don't think this would be helpful for the standard-type games I have played in primarily over the years, but I've wanted to run a game for a long time now that use your "All For One", "Short and Sweet", and "Rogue's Gallery" points. It would take place in Sigil, the city of doors, and the characters for the most part are special agents working for an agency that handles problems with doors. They would be called on when the wrong monsters come through a door, restricted doors spontaneously open in public areas, one way doors become two way (or vice verse), dangerous doors need to be shut, or problems arise on the other side of a door. Maybe the Lady of Pain simply has a favor to ask and needs some people of action to handle it. Each character could also have relationships or ties with the factions, so a player might have multiple characters to choose from depending on the nature of the adventure.
That's very nearly the opposite of the successful setup I've used across multiple groups over the years.
Glad it works for you though.
I've never liked the idea of E6, because honestly levels 5-10 are my favorite levels in the game. Spellcasters are starting to come into their own, martials are still competitive, you can start fighting some really unique enemies. There's so many interesting builds that start to really come alive in the 7-10 range, I'd hate to lose out on that, tbqh.
The rest of it is interesting, but you'd really to have a group that wants a more "living world" setup, especially because with adventures only lasting 1 session it would feel like endless one-shots after awhile. They'd also have to not mind being forced into the same guild, which I never was a huge fan of in PFS and wouldn't be here.
So yeah, DEFINITELY varies depending on group and taste.
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I've never liked the idea of E6, because honestly levels 5-10 are my favorite levels in the game. Spellcasters are starting to come into their own, martials are still competitive, you can start fighting some really unique enemies. There's so many interesting builds that start to really come alive in the 7-10 range, I'd hate to lose out on that, tbqh.
The rest of it is interesting, but you'd really to have a group that wants a more "living world" setup, especially because with adventures only lasting 1 session it would feel like endless one-shots after awhile. They'd also have to not mind being forced into the same guild, which I never was a huge fan of in PFS and wouldn't be here.
So yeah, DEFINITELY varies depending on group and taste.
I totally understand your trepidation. E6 is great, though, especially if you prefer a gritty, low-magic campaign (more like Lord of the Rings or Game of Thrones than Final Fantasy).
As for game session length, this system allows for games to go longer as long as everyone agrees to be there for continuity. We've had stories go on for 5 or 6 sessions before.
The trick to making the mandatory guild work is to keep it generic and all-inclusive. That means no thieves guild, arcane college, or holy order. Honestly, the best way to approach it is to call it an adventurer's guild and keep it really vanilla. The point here isn't to enforce an ideology, just to keep everyone on the same team.
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Keep it simple.
Good heavens no. Part of the fun of Reign of Winter was being able to have our cavalier take a sniper's critical hit, remain standing, and to have my oracle slap a heal on her to erase the damage completely.
Level quickly.
Nah, we level when the GM says. If we burn through the AP fast, so be it. If we go awhile without a level up, so be it.
All for one.
Got no problem with this, but it's not for every game. Makes things easy for organized play however.
Short and sweet.
Depends on the adventure. PFS does a fair job of this, so much so that we are using the adventures for a home campaign with players who wouldn't do well under the stricter structure of organized play.
Get good.
Depends on the players. There are very few I would trust with Evil.
Means of production.
Can't really comment, but our crafting wizard in Skull and Shackles hasn't broken anything. Gives us something to do with the downtime.
The big chair.
Hasn't really come into play, since each adventure path has been self-contained.
Down with paperwork.
HeroLab saves all the hassle of this, except dividing party loot. We have a materia chest of potions on our ship that never get used, and stuff tends to pile up until we get somewhere to sell.
Rogue's gallery.
Too many characters to keep track of. I shipped off my cohort first chance I got so I didn't have to bother with him.
Embrace technology!
At least I can finish with a resounding YES! :) Facebook chats help us organize games, Warhorn sets up schedules with party composition, Roll20 works for remote and local sessions to make use of Paizo's wonderful art and cartography, and HeroLab makes character tracking a breeze. Pen and paper are great for one offs and simple campaigns, but we rarely engage in those.
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I'd like to ask a quick question concerning E6 since in some ways I like it and some ways I don't, but this is all conceptual since I've never actually tried it. One of my greatest reservations is how it would seem to drastically cut in to the sorts of encounters you can have. Wouldn't iconic encounters like an ancient red dragon or pit fiend forever be outside the abilities of such characters to deal with? If not, how do they manage? If so, about what is the cap to encounter difficulty?
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I'd like to ask a quick question concerning E6 since in some ways I like it and some ways I don't, but this is all conceptual since I've never actually tried it. One of my greatest reservations is how it would seem to drastically cut in to the sorts of encounters you can have. Wouldn't iconic encounters like an ancient red dragon or pit fiend forever be outside the abilities of such characters to deal with? If not, how do they manage? If so, about what is the cap to encounter difficulty?
Great question! You can still run encounters against high-level monsters, and believe it or not, it's even better than in a normal game where level-appropriate heroes are involved. Here's why:
Instead of just having your 15-20th level heroes stumble upon a dragon, lich, demon, etc and fight it, your E6 heroes have to prepare. They have to gather up potions of fire resistance, arrows of slaying, and as much monster lore as possible as they can find out. They're going to need allies, resources, maps, illusions to distract it, elaborate mechanical traps to hold it down, and whatever else they can come up with to level the playing field.
In other words, instead of "oh look, a red dragon; roll initiative" it turns into a Witcher-like situation, where taking on a dragon becomes a whole adventure. Remember the dwarves fighting Smaug? Did they just run up to it with their axes and fight it? No way! They came up with a plan, made a trap, tricked the monster, and (nearly) took it down!
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Keep it simple.
Good heavens no. Part of the fun of Reign of Winter was being able to have our cavalier take a sniper's critical hit, remain standing, and to have my oracle slap a heal on her to erase the damage completely.
Hey, E6 isn't for everyone, but it works great for several of my groups. As mentioned earlier, it's best when applied to a low-magic style campaign with a grittier feel. It's a personal preference of ours.
Level quickly.
Nah, we level when the GM says. If we burn through the AP fast, so be it. If we go awhile without a level up, so be it.
When "the" GM says. See, that's why we use our system. We have lots of GMs (potentially a different one every week), so we needed a standardized method of leveling up with our persistent characters.
Get good.
There are very few I would trust with Evil.
And that's exactly why we adhere to this rule. :)
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Hey, E6 isn't for everyone, but it works great for several of my groups. As mentioned earlier, it's best when applied to a low-magic style campaign with a grittier feel. It's a personal preference of ours.
I certainly see no fault in that. My group prefers that high power style, so much that we kept the originally published Scarred Witch Doctor and my brother ended our campaign with around a 40 Con. My oracle wasn't far behind in the Cha department either. :)
HGMs (potentially a different one every week), so we needed a standardized method of leveling up with our persistent characters.
Indeed, PFS has a very useful way of handling this problem. It's not an issue for my group, as we don't hand off the same party to different GMs for the most part.
HAnd that's exactly why we adhere to this rule. :)
Bravo sir! :)
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Great question! You can still run encounters against high-level monsters, and believe it or not, it's even better than in a normal game where level-appropriate heroes are involved.
Yeah... I'm becoming increasingly convinced that E6/8 basically solves all the problems I was having trying to plan out a full-length Warcraft campaign. Who'd've thought?
Incidentally, just a personal thought, but I do want to throw it out there that evil can be really well done in a party so long as the player's not trying to abuse it. Of course, it requires a clear understanding of what the alignment system is and isn't, but evil doesn't necessarily need mean psychotic. I had a player in one of my games who basically played Greed from Fullmetal Alchemist - definitely on the evil side of the alignment spectrum, but so much fun. Because, like Greed, they considered the party members theirs, they were super protective of them, and it almost reached the level of doting at times. But because it was basically only the party they cared about (or opportunities to acquire influence), it led to some brilliant interactions with NPCs. I don't allow myself to pick favourites among my PCs, but if I did, that one would probably be it. I, myself, have been wanting to play a character who is fairly normal, but doesn't understand the moral significance of murder - not that they enjoy it or crave it or anything, they just grew up being trained to be an ideal assassin so they don't get what the big deal is. So... yeah. I can fully understand being hesitant about allowing evil, but I find it's pretty easy to figure out whether a player wants to play evil because of the opportunity for roleplay or just to be a dick. And generally, I don't find it fun to play with the latter players, regardless of what alignment they play. If nothing else, Lawful Evil is probably more ...controllable than Chaotic Neutral is.
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Also, quick question: Do you know how Mythic Adventures might play with E6? My guess is not well, and I haven't had an opportunity to try it out in my regular games yet, but I really like the concept, and think it could be worked really well into my campaign.
Also, where can I find a good source for E6 rules? I did try Google, but nothing definitive leapt out at me.
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Also, quick question: Do you know how Mythic Adventures might play with E6? My guess is not well
Adding mythic to E6 kind of defeats a lot of the purpose of both systems. Why add super-charged, high-power rules to your game when you specifically adopted E6 to curb that stuff? :)
Also, where can I find a good source for E6 rules? I did try Google, but nothing definitive leapt out at me.
If you really want to get all complicated about it, you can use these rules, but in my experience, the best way to do it is to keep it simple:
Just stop leveling up at 6, then every 5,000 exp (or 3 game sessions) beyond that, each character gets a new feat. Done. All the other cool features of E6 kick in as a result of players capping at level 6: crafting is limited, spellcasting stops increasing, the math stays easy, and new characters/players can join the game at any time without feeling out-shined or outclassed.
Enjoy!
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Adding mythic to E6 kind of defeats a lot of the purpose of both systems. Why add super-charged, high-power rules to your game when you specifically adopted E6 to curb that stuff? :)
Fair point... ^^;
I have a tendency to get a bit excitable about these sorts of things, and stop thinking things through all the way.
I can actually see a really good argument for adding Mythic to low level cap games. It lets you keep "leveling" without introducing higher spell levels and so on. level 6 with mythic probably isn't that different from level 8 with extra feats. It also allows the potential for more powerful characters than the norm for the world, but it draws a very, very clear line between them and people who are merely experienced.
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I can actually see a really good argument for adding Mythic to low level cap games. It lets you keep "leveling" without introducing higher spell levels and so on. level 6 with mythic probably isn't that different from level 8 with extra feats. It also allows the potential for more powerful characters than the norm for the world, but it draws a very, very clear line between them and people who are merely experienced.
E6 isn't just about cutting off spellcasting; it caps the power level of the whole campaign world, keeping it in the realm of "low fantasy."
We went through this whole conversation with our gaming group when some of them wanted to add a bunch of capstone abilities, leaning forward feats, gestalt rules, and other stuff to our E6 campaign. Finally, we had to have a long, honest conversation about what we wanted out of our game and, to our surprise, most of the people who wanted more powerful characters really only wanted them because that's how almost every other game works. You adventure, you level up, and you get more powerful.
We concluded that, if we wanted more powerful characters, we'd just play a normal level 1-20+ campaign and include high-level magic, artifacts, legendary monsters, planar travel, etc, etc, etc. But for our campaign, we actually preferred a gritty, low-magic setting with more realistic characters.
I'd like to ask a quick question concerning E6 since in some ways I like it and some ways I don't, but this is all conceptual since I've never actually tried it. One of my greatest reservations is how it would seem to drastically cut in to the sorts of encounters you can have. Wouldn't iconic encounters like an ancient red dragon or pit fiend forever be outside the abilities of such characters to deal with? If not, how do they manage? If so, about what is the cap to encounter difficulty?
Ran an E6 game for a couple of years to great effect.
I included a few epic encounters that went over very well with the players. For a black dragon, I used the basic stats of a CR 7 dragon, then added most of the abilities the black dragon receives as it ages, and increased the size (this is off the top of my head, so the starting CR may have been different). May have also added a template. Basically, the dragon ended up at roughly CR 10, but had the abilities of a CR 17+ dragon. The players prepared, had a tough fight, and just barely made it through the encounter. Honestly, I think I could have beefed him up a bit more.
One thing about E6 is the players should go in prepared to die. Not to say I killed anyone, but that was actually a complaint I received from a couple of the players, so sometimes facing off against a threat that seriously outmatches them will be appropriate.
Also, quick question: Do you know how Mythic Adventures might play with E6? My guess is not well, and I haven't had an opportunity to try it out in my regular games yet, but I really like the concept, and think it could be worked really well into my campaign.
Also, where can I find a good source for E6 rules? I did try Google, but nothing definitive leapt out at me.
I added Mythic abilities to my E6 game, but in a limited way. Basically, as a reward for completing a "mythic challenge" (ie., the aforementioned dragon), the characters received 3 mythic abilities that I felt were appropriate to their character's concept and playstyle, with a very limitied mythic pool. I tweaked some of the abilities downward (mostly reducing duration, especially from an always-on ability/option to a limited number of times per day--I think all required a mythic point to activate).
This gave characters some interesting rewards that could occasionally yield exciting gameplay moments without altering the feel of the game dramatically.
I also had E6 capstone feats that essentially bring characters up to level 8 in terms of class features.
We also used some of Kolokotroni's magic item replacement rules (he's a RL friend).
Overall, most of the players really enjoyed the game, and it maintained the feel that I prefer: heroes aren't THAT far ahead of everyone in the world, and have to be scared still of some lowish-level threats, rather than transitioning to god-like status.
The only reason the game ended is everyone was so busy it became impossible to schedule anything, and I got frustrated trying to pin down dates.
Sounds a lot like the way I run games.
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That's very nearly the opposite of the successful setup I've used across multiple groups over the years.I'd love to hear what your guidelines are, as my list above is very much a living document that's always open to improvement. :)
Since you asked:
There is no level cap. Games can and will go to 20 and possibly beyond, and all available books are on the table to draw from.
If there's something you want to do that isn't covered by existing rules, or isn't allowed by them, then ask. Chances are something can be worked out. This includes custom items.
Maybe they're born under a lucky star, maybe fate can't help but smile, maybe heroism runs in the blood, either way heroes tend to have far better stats than other folk. They can still come from humble beginnings, but they are almost destined for greatness. Stat generation is done by either a high result rolling system or a high value array.
A number that players are expected to keep track of alongside the many other numbers that describe their existence in the game world.
Alignment will not be enforced, and is instead intended to suggest the character's outlook. Alignment restrictions on class and abilities are largely ignored.
No mats or minis are used, combat is to be considered from your character's perspective, not the eagle's. A cinematic approach, although not required, will be appreciated.
Just kidding. Really though, I'm the only person in the group with the time, inclination, and desire to DM, and I honestly prefer it to playing. Also I own the books, cook food for the game, and we play at my house.
I know I'm listing it last, but the first rule is always "have fun". If something isn't fun it can be changed or ignored, if something would increase fun it will be considered. No specific rule overcomes the reason we play: to have fun.
After reading this most recent post, it appears I run a combination of Scythia's and Headfirst's games. There are good elements to each of their posts, and I find myself using some from each in my games.
After reading this most recent post, it appears I run a combination of Scythia's and Headfirst's games. There are good elements to each of their posts, and I find myself using some from each in my games.
I feel like I'm probably a bit on the extreme side, so I doubt there's many perfect matches. :P
Still, nice to hear there are points of commonality.
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Off the grid
No mats or minis are used, combat is to be considered from your character's perspective, not the eagle's. A cinematic approach, although not required, will be appreciated.
This is how we run about half of our battles, usually the small and/or cinematic ones. Other times, though, we use a grid just to keep better track of things, especially for large battles with lots of enemies or complicated terrain features.
There is but one true DM
Just kidding. Really though, I'm the only person in the group with the time, inclination, and desire to DM, and I honestly prefer it to playing. Also I own the books, cook food for the game, and we play at my house.
This is why most of your other points work, honestly. My group would fall apart using your points because we need consistency across multiple DMs. Glad it works for you, though!
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E6 isn't just about cutting off spellcasting; it caps the power level of the whole campaign world, keeping it in the realm of "low fantasy."
We went through this whole conversation with our gaming group when some of them wanted to add a bunch of capstone abilities, leaning forward feats, gestalt rules, and other stuff to our E6 campaign. Finally, we had to have a long, honest conversation about what we wanted out of our game and, to our surprise, most of the people who wanted more powerful characters really only wanted them because that's how almost every other game works. You adventure, you level up, and you get more powerful.
We concluded that, if we wanted more powerful characters, we'd just play a normal level 1-20+ campaign and include high-level magic, artifacts, legendary monsters, planar travel, etc, etc, etc. But for our campaign, we actually preferred a gritty, low-magic setting with more realistic characters.
Well, on second thought, I can see an advantage to Mythic E6 over normal 1-20 play. You get to have that feeling of powerful heroes who are head-and-shoulders above the rest, but, as was said, the lack of high level spells makes it much easier for a GM to build an adventure that can be solved through the use of a couple of carefully chosen spells. Additionally, solo bosses remain much more viable since you still lack all those save-or-die spells and abilities.
Additionally, as I mentioned earlier, my plans are to use it to run a Warcraft campaign, which is incredibly high fantasy, and yet E6 (particularly with the P6 Codex and some homebrew expansion along those lines) provides a way of emulating just about every single ability that a level 100 character in WoW is capable of. Most of the major enemies like Illidan, Kael'thas, Arthas, Garrosh, and so on I'll be constructing using normal d20 rules - including character levels beyond 6th. The Doylist reason for this is simply to make it easier to build tough humanoid bosses without piling on a dozen homebrew templates that would basically add all the same things as another 6 or 10 class levels, and if necessary, a Watsonian explanation can often be cobbled together for why these characters are able to break the level cap due to the use of various dark powers (body parts of Old Gods, fel artifacts, etc.). So the claim that E6 is necessarily about "the power level of the whole campaign world, keeping it in the realm of 'low fantasy'" is a bit... prescriptivist, for lack of a better word.
Of course, if you still want to keep a lot of the advantages of E6 (for me, that's namely the ability for new 1st and 2nd level characters to still feel somewhat useful in even a fully-leveled party), then you're definitely going to want to keep a tight rein on mythic advancement, but that probably goes without saying.
Disclaimer: This isn't to say that what you said is necessarily wrong, either, just that while it may describe what you and your group use E6 for, I don't think it's fair to say that it's universal, or the only way to use this variant.
This is how we run about half of our battles, usually the small and/or cinematic ones. Other times, though, we use a grid just to keep better track of things, especially for large battles with lots of enemies or complicated terrain features.Off the grid
No mats or minis are used, combat is to be considered from your character's perspective, not the eagle's. A cinematic approach, although not required, will be appreciated.
For the last few years, I've primarily run PbP games, and as a result have pretty much adopted this out of necessity. While complex encounters really do need a map to keep track of everything, I've used just about every tool freely available on the 'net, and all of them have enough shortcomings that I haven't been able to stick with any of them. Incidentally, the method I use most often is using a mono-spaced font to draw up a grid and terrain features using various symbols and punctuation, and letters and numbers for the combatants.
Lawrence has said pretty much everything I was going to. E6 does a lot more than limit spell levels, but E6 + mythic does neatly cover one of the major advantages of E6 without capping advancement.
I have an old idea for an open online campaign that anybody can drop in and out of. The idea was to set a very low level cap and allow mythic tiers, but your mythic tiers only come into play when you encounter a mythic trial and power-up. That way it remains much easier to jump in with lower level characters without being as restrictive as it could be.
I find running without a grid drives me nuts. It's very difficult to have a battle without people getting confused about what's where. That said, for quick or one-sided encounters I don't bother.
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I have an old idea for an open online campaign that anybody can drop in and out of. The idea was to set a very low level cap and allow mythic tiers, but your mythic tiers only come into play when you encounter a mythic trial and power-up. That way it remains much easier to jump in with lower level characters without being as restrictive as it could be.
That's actually a pretty good idea. I might do something like that for the adaptations of raids in my game.
Has anyone put together an E# guide to help DMs figure out where they want to stop in order to hit the flavor they want? I'm hearing "gritty, low-magic" for E6 and thinking "Not for me" but I also don't think I want to hit full demigod.
Well, like I said, it actually isn't necessarily about gritty, and low-magic, although that is a major draw to the variant for many people. Level 6 characters can still have quite a few fantastical abilities and a lot of the iconic spells are 2nd and 3rd level ones - you just don't have as regular access to them as in most games, so they get to retain their specialness.
Check out the P6 Codex. It's incomplete, but take a look at its guidelines, and then thumb through the various classes and spell lists to see what 6th level characters can actually still do - you may be fairly surprised. Then, consider that if you use the P6 Codex, a handful of feats will allow characters to eventually acquire a lot of the abilities of 7th and 8th level characters (and 9th-level bloodline powers for sorcerers, which I do recommend as an exception since that class does get shafted a bit more than most by a level 6 cap, particularly compared to the wizard).
While there is also E8 and the much less widely used E7, I've ultimately decided that E6 is what I'm going to go with even though one of my own biggest reservations for the variant was not wanting truly gritty, low-fantasy games. If you made a hard cap at level 6, only allowed material from the Core Rulebook (particularly, excluding P6 Codex's epic and signature feats), then you'll probably get a pretty low-fantasy game, but there's still enough flexibility in E6 (particularly when allowing the aforementioned epic and signature feats) to get all the same mechanical advantages of E6, but a lot more flexibility in how fantastical your setting is. You'll notice I'm planning to use this for a World of Warcraft campaign, and that is definitely not a low-fantasy setting. It all depends on how you run it, and what you decide to emphasize.
Incidentally, the P6 Codex is still incomplete when it comes to anything outside of the Core Rulebook, and doesn't seem to have been touched in a couple of years. Still, it provides solid enough guidelines that you can easily extrapolate its rules to the rest of the Pathfinder library.
TL;DR, "Hard" E6 (no P6 Codex-style epic or signature feats) can be low-fantasy if you run it that way, E8 should definitely be done "hard" if you want to keep most of the advantages of E6, and may require selectively banning certain spells. P6 Codex's epic and signature feats provide a nice spectrum between the two, granting the GM finer control over how fantastical the players can be. E7 just seems to be a messy hybrid of the two that I can't quite see the particular advantages of...
Really, the thing about E6 isn't that it's inherently low-fantasy or anything, but that it gives the GM greater control over how fantastical the setting and players are, and makes it easier to design encounters and adventures without having to worry about the players just scrying, teleporting, time stopping, resurrecting, and prismatic spraying their way through every obstacle. You can still even have high-level spells by creating rituals for them, and powerful magic items can still be given as ancient treasure from a dragon's hoard. And everyone's assured me that even encounters as high as EL 15 can be thrown against a E6 party so long as they have time to prepare, so not only can epic battles still occur, they become all the more epic for it. At least, that's my observations as someone who only started seriously considering it within the last week.
TL;DR (again), I recommend giving it a shot. Or at the very least, writing up some character sheets for an E6 party to see what they're capable of. It's not nearly as (inherently) low-fantasy as people make it out to be (though, again, it can be if that's what you want).
I'm not going to lie, on big reason I dislike the idea of E6 is because my favorite class is the Slayer.
...Which is the class that gets the ability to use it's defining combat ability as a swift action at level 7. That is HUGE. It would be absolutely awful playing a Slayer in E6.
Then there's animal companions, many of which get a nice boost at level 7. Not just the stat boosts, but many animals get their defining abilities at level 7.
E7 I'd be ok with, tbqh, but E6 just seems like a really bad level to draw the line. At least two classes (Hunter and Slayer) are really hurt by drawing the line at E6. And I'm just wondering if there's any other classes that get serious functionality/quality of life improvements at level 7 or 8. If so, being stuck right on the cusp of getting those abilities would be, simply put, uncool.
I was thinking more along the lines of this:
If you really want to get all complicated about it, you can use these rules, but in my experience, the best way to do it is to keep it simple:
Just stop leveling up at 6, then every 5,000 exp (or 3 game sessions) beyond that, each character gets a new feat. Done. All the other cool features of E6 kick in as a result of players capping at level 6: crafting is limited, spellcasting stops increasing, the math stays easy, and new characters/players can join the game at any time without feeling out-shined or outclassed.
Enjoy!
But it is very good to hear that there's still some degree of class progression afterwards in the real E6 rules, I'd gladly spend a feat to let my animal companion an upgrade or get my core slayer ability up to par with everyone else's abilities.
I find it great ! I would not use all the rules but I understand them wel. The Means of Production and the E6 restriction is cool.
Espescially you get hero's that can do something but can't destroy a whole village with one bad aimed fireball !
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I was thinking more along the lines of this:
But it is very good to hear that there's still some degree of class progression afterwards in the real E6 rules, I'd gladly spend a feat to let my animal companion an upgrade or get my core slayer ability up to par with everyone else's abilities.
If you really want to get all complicated about it, you can use these rules, but in my experience, the best way to do it is to keep it simple:
Just stop leveling up at 6, then every 5,000 exp (or 3 game sessions) beyond that, each character gets a new feat. Done. All the other cool features of E6 kick in as a result of players capping at level 6: crafting is limited, spellcasting stops increasing, the math stays easy, and new characters/players can join the game at any time without feeling out-shined or outclassed.
Enjoy!
Well, it's the same rules as in Headfirst's link there. As for being the "real" E6 rules, though, there's no such thing. It's an entirely fan-made variant, with the only "real" rule being that 6 is the level cap, and that afterwards you gain feats instead. What those feats are, what other systems you use with it, and any other tweaks you want to make are all optional. It just happens to be that the P6 Codex is a well-formatted PDF a slightly more dedicated fan posted to the web. It's entirely up to you and your group whether or not you use it, and what you use from it if you do.
Of course, your other option is to use E7 or E8 which are pretty much exactly the same thing as E6 just stopping at levels 7 and 8, respectively. However, doing a similar Epic/Signature feat progression up to level 9 or 10 really risks introducing game-breaking abilities, so if you do use them, you should really just stick to normal, published feats for post E7/E8 growth, which I think cuts into the feel of the variant a fair amount. But that's just my personal opinion. Others' reservations about E7/E8 pretty much begin and end with the 4th-level spells that become fair game.
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gets the ability to use it's defining combat ability
The problem with that mentality is that it never ends. So you move up to E7 so your favorite class gets a cool ability... What about clerics and wizards? Their best domain/school abilities kick in at E8. And sorcerers would prefer E9. Etc, etc, etc.
Speaking of wizards and sorcerers, if you stop at an odd level, you punish spontaneous spellcasters.
Also, slayers are great in E6. They're great at any level, really.
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I suppose I'd want to know what the "feel" is of an E6 game compared to an E8, E10, or E12. Like, what's best for "Boldly leap into action heedless of danger" or does it matter?
E6 is going to feel like Lord of the Rings. Not a lot of magic getting thrown around, heroes can still die from fighting too many orcs, and adventurers still need horses, torches, rope, etc. You probably cherish your one magic item, and if there are any artifacts in the world at all, they're probably the focus of the campaign. The reason this seems like a perfect fit for LotR is because that's exactly where E6 came from.
E8 is when higher magic starts coming online. Adventurers are flying around, casting battle-ending spells, and almost all of them have iterative attacks. You probably have a few magic items and have even started selling off the extra ones you don't need.
E10+ breaks into world-changing magic. People are teleporting around, riding monstrous mounts, and being brought back from the dead. Challenging parties like this requires classic high-end villains: dragons, liches, illithids, demons, etc, all of which add their own unique dimensions to the game.
Beyond E10 or so, you're really just playing a normal 1-20 game of Pathfinder, all the way up to the higher levels where people start getting their hands on wish and miracle. At that point, it's hard to justify every major city NOT having an airship port, adamantine golem guards, and dragon-riding knights. This is the super hero bracket, plain and simple. A single hero (even a martial one) could waltz into a good sized town and completely destroy it all by himself. At this level, planar travel, kingdom defense, and even death aren't challenges anymore; they're just minor expenses.
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At that point, it's hard to justify every major city NOT having an airship port, adamantine golem guards, and dragon-riding knights.
Except that not everyone is an adventurer. Even in a full level 20 campaign, you can have a world where most people don't get any higher than level 3. Adventurers are usually the exception to various rules, anyway, and major villains are frequently adventurers, too (or at least more like adventurers than common folk). Consider Mogworld where a few characters like Baron Civious and Thaddeus (and almost no others) could easily be as high as 20th level characters due to extreme devotion and/or study, but where even the king of the most powerful kingdom in the world is maybe 5th level at absolute best since he's never really needed to do anything. Just because there are 20 (or more) levels of advancement in a setting doesn't mean that everyone is guaranteed to achieve those 20 levels.
Now, you can then ask the question of why what few high-level characters that do exist haven't taken over the rest of the world with their god-like powers, but if you can't come up with some sort of passable explanation for that, you're just not trying. Although, if nothing else, I imagine most players would accept it being due to the Law of Narrative Causality.
gets the ability to use it's defining combat abilityThe problem with that mentality is that it never ends. So you move up to E7 so your favorite class gets a cool ability... What about clerics and wizards? Their best domain/school abilities kick in at E8. And sorcerers would prefer E9. Etc, etc, etc.
Speaking of wizards and sorcerers, if you stop at an odd level, you punish spontaneous spellcasters.
Also, slayers are great in E6. They're great at any level, really.
Well, E6 seems to be a style specifically to limit magic hijinks. It seems like since you're playing to cut off magic users, it doesn't make much sense to complain about them. But Slayers, on the other hand are a martial, and a below average one until level 7. It just seems tragic when martials have to suffer for the sake of punishing spellcasters.
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Well, E6 seems to be a style specifically to limit magic hijinks. It seems like since you're playing to cut off magic users, it doesn't make much sense to complain about them. But Slayers, on the other hand are a martial, and a below average one until level 7. It just seems tragic when martials have to suffer for the sake of punishing spellcasters.
A couple of things:
1) E6 was not designed (and is not used) specifically to limit magic (though that is one of its best features). The reason I love it so much is that it significantly reduces the amount of math in the game. This has the effect of speeding up battles, simplifying character builds, and reducing the complexity of magic item and gold economies. I think we can all admit that high-level battles take way too long, from sifting through enormous spell lists and managing cohorts/familiars/eidolons/companions to calculating iterative attacks and working with/around DR/SR/resistances/immunities. That's why my very first bullet point above is called "keep it simple" and not "nerf casters."
2) I'm struggling to figure out why you think slayers are a below average martial class. Full BAB, two good saves, high skill points, great weapon and armor proficiencies, tons of customization options... most people I talk to regard them as one of the best, if not THE best martial class. Let's be honest: They're really powerful and that's why they're a lot of peoples' favorite martial class (maybe you like them for another reason, but, come on, probably not, right?). When they first came out, I was like, "Seriously, Paizo? A full BAB class with martial weapons and sneak attack?"
3) You don't think it's a bit petty to disparage an entire game system because it takes one minor feature away from your favorite class? :)
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Well, E6 seems to be a style specifically to limit magic hijinks. It seems like since you're playing to cut off magic users, it doesn't make much sense to complain about them. But Slayers, on the other hand are a martial, and a below average one until level 7. It just seems tragic when martials have to suffer for the sake of punishing spellcasters.
As Headfirst said, wrong. E6 is designed to limit the fantastical elements of player abilities. There are plenty of higher level martial abilities that are just as fantastical as high level spells, if less flashy. Barbarians can soak up so many attacks that by all rights they should be atomized by the time they hit 0 - and still don't die - rogues can practically turn invisible without the need for dispellable magic, monks practically cease to be biological creatures in any but the most superficial ways, and rangers can track a sparrow in a thunderstorm and then headshot it from over the horizon. The reason that 6-8 is where these sorts of variants tend to cut off is - if you're familiar with the concept of linear warriors, quadratic wizards - that's the point where squishy magic users catch up to sturdier martial classes, so everyone's actually on a fairly level playing field.
6th through 8th level is the point at which each class is on the most even footing with each other in the entire game. The biggest difference between E6 and E8, really, is that at 6th you've cut out some nice abilities that wouldn't necessarily upset the game world, while at 8th, some world-upsetting abilities do become available for those that go after them. It just depends on which side you'd rather err on, really. But regardless of whether you go for E6 or E8, the fact that this is the range at which each class is the most balanced means that it makes no sense to allow just some classes to be able to get more or fewer levels than other classes. If you want your slayers to get to 7th level, then play E7 or E8.
Also, yes. As Headfirst said, of all the martial classes, slayers need the least help. And the way you came into this thread saying the concept of E6 was flawed because a single non-core class misses out on what you consider to be its signature ability won't be winning you any friends on either side. Not to mention, it's trivially easy to add in one or two such features as homebrew feats, should you want them available in an E6 game, though if you do this, you should make such feats for every class.
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I have a question about E6:
Two-weapon fighters that aren't full BaB classes. You'll be at 4 BaB, and you'll have two attacks at a -2, paying to enchant both weapons/only one good weapon if low-magic, and having to spend a feat on Two Weapon Fighting. A full BaB two weapon fighter has up to 4 attacks, or a full BaB non-TWFer has two attacks, at +6 and +1, so slightly higher penalty, but don't need the dex, don't spend the feat, and only one weapon needed.
Is there a way to balance this? If a hunter, bard, rogue, even cleric, wanted to TWF, are there feats to let you get higher BaB? Or to count as higher BaB for TWFing purposes, at the very least.
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I have a question about E6:
Two-weapon fighters that aren't full BaB classes. You'll be at 4 BaB, and you'll have two attacks at a -2, paying to enchant both weapons/only one good weapon if low-magic, and having to spend a feat on Two Weapon Fighting. A full BaB two weapon fighter has up to 4 attacks, or a full BaB non-TWFer has two attacks, at +6 and +1, so slightly higher penalty, but don't need the dex, don't spend the feat, and only one weapon needed.
Is there a way to balance this? If a hunter, bard, rogue, even cleric, wanted to TWF, are there feats to let you get higher BaB? Or to count as higher BaB for TWFing purposes, at the very least.
You seem to be forgetting, however, that fighters don't have any other tricks up their sleeves. Hunters, bards, rogues, and clerics can do things other than hit stuff with swords, and so in exchange, they get fewer attacks and at a lower BAB. If you tried to correct for this then there'd be no reason to play a fighter at all if you wanted to TWF. (Also, just to be sure you're aware, TWF by itself just nets a fighter 3 attacks. They need Improved TWF in order to get the second off-hand one.)
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I have a question about E6:
Two-weapon fighters that aren't full BaB classes.
Is there a way to balance this?
While E6 fixes a lot of stuff about Pathfinder, it doesn't fix the fact that two-weapon fighting is awful in any version of the game.
However, I will say this: In E6, you're probably not going to be fighting a lot of monsters that have super high armor classes, so playing a TWF 3/4 BAB class doesn't suck quite as bad. :)
Late to the thread, but I just want to say that I love the list! It is almost exactly my ideal setup. (I have been trying to convince my group to do E6 and I am the wizard.)
I would find the ambition of one adventure per session challenging. I struggle to anticipate how long the players will spend on activities or in a combat. In addition, the lack of a firm arc to the story means I would probably start too many adventures with "You are all sitting in the bar when ..."
How do you overcome those challenges?
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You seem to be forgetting, however, that fighters don't have any other tricks up their sleeves. Hunters, bards, rogues, and clerics can do things other than hit stuff with swords, and so in exchange, they get fewer attacks and at a lower BAB. If you tried to correct for this then there'd be no reason to play a fighter at all if you wanted to TWF. (Also, just to be sure you're aware, TWF by itself just nets a fighter 3 attacks. They need Improved TWF in order to get the second off-hand one.)
They do have other things (though if you're a normal Rogue and not unchained, you don't have much, but that's nothing to do with E6). Just normally isn't a huge issue with TWFing that for a few levels you're considerably behind the other melee types due to BaB shenanigans, but when you're stuck there permanently, it'd feel pretty bad to be paying such a high cost for something that's worse than just what the Slayer gets as a base - compare TWFing Unchained Rogue and TWFing Slayer or Ranger, and the Unchained Rogue is way, way worse combat wise here, and not a huge amount better in out-of-combat stuff (especially as you'd be able to use the extra sneak attack feat to get close to Rogue sneak attack damage as a Slayer). Cutting off the 3/4 BaBs from their iteratives feels unneededly harsh on some of them (rogue for the most part, the rest have their magic), but then can definitely see the advantage of the 'trained' fighters having the extra attacks and the clerics, bards, magii and the like not. I think if I was running it I'd let an unchained rogue get their iteratives with the epic feat type things :)