Emergency Force Sphere and PFS


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5/5 5/55/55/5

James Risner wrote:
BigNorseWolf wrote:
There are lots of things that are in response to being effected. Not the same thing.
While I'll accept you see it as not the same, I see it as they couldn't more more similar.

One creates a linear timeline of events. One invokes a timey whimey ball. And i hate bringing my 12 foot scarf to games. It trips on everything.

Caster begins casting charm person

Caster finishes charm person Target is chosen <--- These being at the same time is one of the few things explicitly stated in the rules for the timing.

Your mind attempts to resist the charm person. The mesmerists hypnotism to lend you her will save, that guidance the wizard was poking on everyone every 5 seconds, your andoran reroll thingy all kick in.

3/5 *

FiddlersGreen wrote:
Actually, I double-checked the FAQ and would disagree.

I didn't mention the subschool ability, I was just responding to you saying that only actual spell casting of DD and abundant step counts, which is untrue. There are DD spelllikes, such as horizon walker, and I'm sure some monsters have one.

Scarab Sages 2/5

plaidwandering wrote:
FiddlersGreen wrote:
Actually, I double-checked the FAQ and would disagree.
I didn't mention the subschool ability, I was just responding to you saying that only actual spell casting of DD and abundant step counts, which is untrue. There are DD spelllikes, such as horizon walker, and I'm sure some monsters have one.
FAQ wrote:

"Spell-Like Abilities, Casting, and Prerequisites: Does a creature with a spell-like ability count as being able to cast that spell for the purpose of prerequisites or requirements?

Only if the pre-requisite calls out the name of a spell explicitly. For instance, the Dimensional Agility feat (Ultimate Combat) has "ability to use the abundant step class feature or cast dimension door" as a prerequisite; a barghest has dimension door as a spell-like ability, so the barghest meets the "able to cast dimension door prerequisite for that feat. However, the barghest's dimension door would not meet requirements such as "Ability to cast 4th level spells" or "Ability to cast arcane spells"."

Interesting. I always thought Dimensional Agility wouldn't work with an SLA. But this changes my mind.

Still, it wouldn't work with a SU though. Since you do not 'cast' those.

The Exchange 4/5 Owner - D20 Hobbies

KingOfAnything wrote:
Are you conflating being affected with resolving the effects?

No, I'm simply saying that if all it says is Immediate Action and doesn't present timing restrictions then you can use the ability after being targeted before being affected.

I think BigNorseWolf is conflating the two, I'm specifically saying you can insert immediate actions between the two.

Sovereign Court 4/5 5/5 *** Venture-Agent, Nebraska—Omaha

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James Risner wrote:
KingOfAnything wrote:
Are you conflating being affected with resolving the effects?

No, I'm simply saying that if all it says is Immediate Action and doesn't present timing restrictions then you can use the ability after being targeted before being affected.

I think BigNorseWolf is conflating the two, I'm specifically saying you can insert immediate actions between the two.

Ahh. I don't think BigNorseWolf is conflating being targeted and being affected. He is making a rules argument.

Magic Chapter wrote:
You make all pertinent decisions about a spell (range, target, area, effect, version, and so forth) when the spell comes into effect.

This line explicitly says that spells come into effect at the same moment they are targeted. That would preclude your interpretation of being able to take an immediate action to prevent the effect. (In other words, this isn't anime. There are not flashy beams of light for many spells in the spellbook. Weird things just happen.) You can make immediate actions at any time, but if there isn't any time between target and effect, you can't take that immediate action.

Edit: It may be wise to bring up an example situation at this point. It's harder to address nuance in abstract.

5/5 5/55/55/5

James Risner wrote:
KingOfAnything wrote:
Are you conflating being affected with resolving the effects?

No, I'm simply saying that if all it says is Immediate Action and doesn't present timing restrictions then you can use the ability after being targeted before being affected.

I think BigNorseWolf is conflating the two, I'm specifically saying you can insert immediate actions between the two.

Not conflating them at all. They're at different spots on the timeline.

The target is not chosen until the spell is cast.

If the spell is cast you have been affected. You can throw immediate actions while resolving the effect, but breaking line of effect with the biodome won't help you at that point. Breaking the line of effect before that lets the caster choose a new target.

The Exchange 4/5 Owner - D20 Hobbies

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BigNorseWolf wrote:
breaking line of effect with the biodome won't help you at that point

We obviously have diametrically opposed view on what the rules say, and neither of us can show the other a rule to disprove our respective interpretations.

So the only reasonable option is for us to jump onto a FAQ thread on this question and hope to get it answered. Continuing to debate it isn't going to get us anywhere. I think we both have significant rules knowledge, so there isn't a line that either of us haven't read to sway us.

Sovereign Court 4/5 5/5 ** Venture-Lieutenant, Netherlands—Leiden

Lorewalker wrote:

Interesting. I always thought Dimensional Agility wouldn't work with an SLA. But this changes my mind.

Still, it wouldn't work with a SU though. Since you do not 'cast' those.

You're arguing this prevents you from using Shift & Dimensional Agility?

Shift wrote:
Shift (Su): At 1st level, you can teleport to a nearby space as a swift action as if using dimension door. This movement does not provoke an attack of opportunity. You must be able to see the space that you are moving into. You cannot take other creatures with you when you use this ability (except for familiars). You can move 5 feet for every two wizard levels you possess (minimum 5 feet). You can use this ability a number of times per day equal to 3 + your Intelligence modifier.

So "using dimension door" isn't casting it?

Dimensional Agility

Teleportation does not faze you.

Prerequisites: Ability to use the abundant step class feature or cast dimension door.

Benefit: After using abundant step or casting dimension door, you can take any actions you still have remaining on your turn. You also gain a +4 bonus on Concentration checks when casting teleportation spells.

I suppose an argument could be though that if "using dimension door" was the same as "casting dimension door", that would make the reference to Abundant Step redundant;

Abundant Step (Su): At 12th level or higher, a monk can slip magically between spaces, as if using the spell dimension door. Using this ability is a move action that consumes 2 points from his ki pool. His caster level for this effect is equal to his monk level. He cannot take other creatures with him when he uses this ability.

I'm not wholly convinced but I can see an argument there. It does seem like splitting hairs very fine. However, a technical redundancy doesn't strike me as such a strong argument because it could also be intended as a way of reminding people who the feat was clearly meant for, redundancy be damned.

Shadow Lodge 5/5

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first of all I do feel that this spell probably should be in the realm of a 5th level spell .. trading Area for the casting time ... but that's not my call

secondly.....k why are we having this argument at all

Players WILL break encounters - we know that
Players can and will break entire scenarios

Think back to the story of a Wizard trying to use Dominate person on a particularly high level caster from a season 4 scenario

yes we as GM's have a limited amount of response that we can use

yes .. we as human beings have a right to complain

but the farther I read into this thread the more it looks to be becoming adversarial (i.e. GM's vs Players) Unfortunately this is a growing trend that Ive seen on the forums .. particularly in these ban this or that threads (alter summon monster aside)

PFS is about everyone having fun ...
Loosing a character is RARELY Fun for a Player (I know of a couple of instances where this is not the case but those are fringe)so is allowing players to have a get out of jail free card so harmful ?

is this 1 spell Ruining the fun of GM's So bad that it requires this level of targeted response ?

if the answer to either of these is no then again ... why are we debating this
if the answer is yes to either of these then I think we as players / GM's need to ask ourselves why we feel this way ...

The Exchange 4/5 Owner - D20 Hobbies

If you feel EFS doesn't interrupt an attack to prevent it or if you feel it can in fact do so, please click this FAQ

EFS isn't in a book that likely will never get errata or FAQ. But that material is in a book that can and it is a similar question.

Scarab Sages 2/5

Lau Bannenberg wrote:

I suppose an argument could be though that if "using dimension door" was the same as "casting dimension door", that would make the reference to Abundant Step redundant;

Exactly. You are using an SU that acts like Dimension Door. But an SLA is like a spell whereas an SU is not. The fact that Abundant Step is included specifically allows it to function. But that does not allow every SU that functions like Dimension Door to meet the prereq.

An SU does not qualify you for any ability which has as a prereq "casts such and such spell".

It's about the basic definitions of the ability types, really. Having precision damage isn't the same thing as having sneak attack dice.

The Exchange 4/5

Lorewalker wrote:
Lau Bannenberg wrote:

I suppose an argument could be though that if "using dimension door" was the same as "casting dimension door", that would make the reference to Abundant Step redundant;

Exactly. You are using an SU that acts like Dimension Door. But an SLA is like a spell whereas an SU is not. The fact that Abundant Step is included specifically allows it to function. But that does not allow every SU that functions like Dimension Door to meet the prereq.

An SU does not qualify you for any ability which has as a prereq "casts such and such spell".

It's about the basic definitions of the ability types, really. Having precision damage isn't the same thing as having sneak attack dice.

^^^Agree, I do. Been playing with this understanding for years. There are threads on it from way back, and most agree it dosnt work for reasons above.

3/5 **** Venture-Agent, Massachusetts—Boston Metro

James Risner wrote:

If you feel EFS doesn't interrupt an attack to prevent it or if you feel it can in fact do so, please click this FAQ

EFS isn't in a book that likely will never get errata or FAQ. But that material is in a book that can and it is a similar question.

I doubt they are gong to start errating entire classes and how they work. In fact with the way certain classes like the Mesmerist work its just mental gymnastics to try and force the fact that your aren't loosing the spell.

5/5 5/55/55/5

James Risner wrote:
BigNorseWolf wrote:
breaking line of effect with the biodome won't help you at that point

We obviously have diametrically opposed view on what the rules say, and neither of us can show the other a rule to disprove our respective interpretations.

.

I can and I have. there is no rules basis for splitting those actions.

The Exchange 4/5 Owner - D20 Hobbies

Ok, a new an improved question for this issue:

Please click FAQ here

Also, thanks BigNorseWolf!


KingOfAnything wrote:
Magic Chapter wrote:
You make all pertinent decisions about a spell (range, target, area, effect, version, and so forth) when the spell comes into effect.

This line explicitly says that spells come into effect at the same moment they are targeted. That would preclude your interpretation of being able to take an immediate action to prevent the effect. (In other words, this isn't anime. There are not flashy beams of light for many spells in the spellbook. Weird things just happen.) You can make immediate actions at any time, but if there isn't any time between target and effect, you can't take that immediate action.

Edit: It may be wise to bring up an example situation at this point. It's harder to address nuance in abstract.

I happened to be reading through some feats today, and think I ran into a relevant example that supports this idea. Arcane Shield and Reactive Arcane Shield. The first is an immediate action that raises AC. The second is from the Melee Tactics Toolbox, and modifies the first explicitly to make it work against an attack that has already been declared. So, at the very least, the MTT writers/proofreaders/editors didn't think that an immediate action defence can normally be applied.

I find this odd, but there it is.

The Exchange 3/5

It looks to me like it suggests exactly what some of the discussion about ready vs immediate concluded; only ready actions can retroactively change something which happens unless an ability specifically calls it out.

Arcane Shield would be used as they approach you or if you wanted to receive an AC bonus against additional attacks if you didn't use it before the first one.

Additionally I think we should keep in mind attacks don't have to have a declared target before they are actually done just like spells. Someone using Arcane Shield might not even get attacked or continue to be attacked but the 2nd feat makes sure they were the target of attack.

Full Attack wrote:
You do not need to specify the targets of your attacks ahead of time.


Lucy_Valentine wrote:
So, at the very least, the MTT writers/proofreaders/editors didn't think that an immediate action defence can normally be applied.

The writers/proofreaders/editors that worked on Prone Shooter also thought it did something... There is also no normal section to contrast what the original thinking was.

I'll agree it's interesting but a single instance/example doesn't do much to prove an identifiable pattern of rules that defines Immediate Actions.


I will paraphrase the line I use about folks with absurdly high Armor Class.

EFC, like most other purely defensive abilities, cannot end an encounter any faster, cannot help you defeat the bad guy. All they can do, by themselves, is slow down your mean time to failure.

At least the high-AC guy can also still attack. EFC is more or less taking yourself off the battlemap for a short time. You're safe, sure, but you're not doing a heck of a lot to the enemy either.

-k

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