Hello all
I have run into a situation that confuses me as a GM, and I would like some input from others who might have met a similar situation.
So my current group consists of 4 players, two who are experienced and two who are completely new - this is their first campaign (not first session though, we are 20 sessions in now). Both of the new players were people I met in a theater group, so they both joined for (and are pretty good at) the roleplaying aspect, but with one peculiar exception:
I have noticed that my two new players have an odd tendency to ask me, the GM, for help, and then take my word as law.
Three moments come to mind:
1) The Bard wanted to take "improved unarmed strike" and asked me what I thought about that. Looking at her character and that she had been pretty attached to her Rapier I said "I would probably choose something I would get to use more often". Later I felt kinda bad about that, as I feel I might as well have said "You're doing it wrong" which wasn't my intention, and she did end up choosing another feat.
2)When in stressful situations, the new players ask me what I think the party should do. I don't really want to do this as I usually don't have an idea - and because I think part of the fun is in seeing what the party chooses to do.
3) When giving my new players information that only their character knows, they usually give this information to the other characters word-for-word to how I told them. They are usually good at roleplaying, but when it comes to GM-given information, it seems that they are careful not to "distort" or "defile" it, which I find a little odd.
This last point is something I would particularly like to know how to handle. Since my players don't spend all their freetime with their heads in the rulebooks, I have decided to make a sheet of paper for each of the players with "Common Knowledge" that they would know, based on their race and background, but would like for them to expand on it with their characters' own experiences and life, rather than just what I told them.
I hope that my question make sense to you, and thanks in advance
I don't know that there's a problem here.
First of all, you've said the new players are from a theater group, who are (probably) taught how to memorize lines, details, and instructions. They're going to repeat things verbatim because their training dictates they should.
Second, it's kind of natural. Paraphrasing is dangerous. Great care needs to be taken about adding or removing context and background. You might say "it looks like something with claws passed here", and a player relates "maybe a dog or something was around here". Problem is, you knew the claw marks are Large, and the player has now suggested a Medium animal because that was the impression they got. Conveying what you understood as opposed to what was said can be bad.
So yeah, I'm not sure there's an issue. How do your players feel?
For 1, I agree you may have been a little hasty. You should ask the player what they want their character to be able to do, how they want them to develop, what they want to be better at, etc. Maybe they were worried about losing their beloved rapier, and wanted to be able to still do something in combat; granted I don't think IUS is the correct answer here. Since they are new, instead of tossing a book full of feats and other options at them, ask them the above questions, then guide them toward options for that. They might also get ideas from things the other players do; "Oh, cool, I didn't know I could flourish my weapon in combat and distract and intimidate our enemies; I want to try that too!"
For 2, I agree you probably shouldn't guide the party too much; players don't normally like to feel like they are on rails, and you have 2 experienced players who probably really don't want that. I would direct them to discuss it with the other players instead of you. I myself don't tend to be a party leader, so I usually pick another character in the party that I feel my character likes the most for whatever reason, and just go along with what they say. All that being said, if a party is stumped, but you know they have the information they need to find the next link in the story chain, maybe review the information they have with leading questions and a list of facts that know that is arranged in such a way to lead them to the correct conclusion. I personally am terrible at taking notes during a session, and have a terrible memory, so I usually only have a rough jist of what's going on when it comes to the main overarching narrative. If there is supposed to be any kind of mystery solving or putting together of clues, I'm usually the last one to get it.
For 3, I would just explain to them that, as the GM, you do your best to convey to them (the player) what their character is experiencing, but that they (the player) may process that information and then utilize it to roleplay their character however they feel.
An example would be: If one of them passes a Perception check to notice some giant spiders waiting in ambush above the players, and you tell them this by saying "[Insert characters name here] notices several large spiders overhead, looking as if they are only moments away from dropping down on your unsuspecting party", you can let them know that they don't have to say that sentence word for word. You can let them know that they can say anything ranging from complete silence, to "Hey everybody, giant spiders overhead!", to "Everybody stop what you are doing, and carefully ready your weapons.", to trying to casually whisper a warning to each ally individually.
Just make sure they know that they can still roleplay their character how they want once you've done your job of conveying the input of their characters senses. If they are is interested in the RP aspect as you say, they should appreciate that.
Anguish wrote: Paraphrasing is dangerous. Great care needs to be taken about adding or removing context and background. You might say "it looks like something with claws passed here", and a player relates "maybe a dog or something was around here". Problem is, you knew the claw marks are Large, and the player has now suggested a Medium animal because that was the impression they got. Conveying what you understood as opposed to what was said can be bad.
I would say it is up to the GM to clarify in situations like this. If I were the GM in this situation, and I heard one of my players make the above comment to their fellow players, I'd probably add something like "the tracks look like they probably belong to something a good bit bigger than a dog; probably more like bear-sized" and let them re-word their explanation to the other players.
I say this because most GMs aren't perfect. They have all of the information and the players have none. It's the GMs job to convey information about the world to the players, so they can play their characters accordingly. It's up to the GM to convey the right amount of information, and they don't always get it right. If you convey too much, you maybe give the players an advantage they wouldn't have otherwise had, and if you convey too little, the players get stumped, lost, misguided, or otherwise misled. The difference is that in the first case, the players won't really have a bad experience caused by your flub, unless they really are picky about having a nice difficult time of it. In the second case, they could very easily feel slighted, as if you purposely left out details they should have known.
Jufo wrote: 1) The Bard wanted to take "improved unarmed strike" and asked me what I thought about that. Looking at her character and that she had been pretty attached to her Rapier I said "I would probably choose something I would get to use more often". Later I felt kinda bad about that, as I feel I might as well have said "You're doing it wrong" which wasn't my intention, and she did end up choosing another feat. Don't sweat it. The player asked for advice and you gave it. You knew who the player was and what she had played so far, you knew the workings of the rules and you used this to give a piece of advice that you thought would keep the player happy. Sure, its nice to give alternatives, ask questions and explain your reasoning when giving advice. But from what I understand you still handled the situation in a good way. If you still feel bad about the situation, talk to the player.
Jufo wrote: 2)When in stressful situations, the new players ask me what I think the party should do. I don't really want to do this as I usually don't have an idea - and because I think part of the fun is in seeing what the party chooses to do. Talk to your players about this. Ask them why they feel the need to hear your idea of what the party should do. Maybe they're insecure, not used to the freedom that role-playing offers. Maybe you aren't actually giving them enough to act on. Maybe they're afraid of messing with your plot and prep, maybe you've even (inadvertently) punished the party for taking a "wrong" decision.
You should suggest asking the other players before asking you, though. And if they continue, start giving options. »As I see it, you have at least two was of dealing with the situation«. That might show them who role-playing works.
Jufo wrote: 3) When giving my new players information that only their character knows, they usually give this information to the other characters word-for-word to how I told them. They are usually good at roleplaying, but when it comes to GM-given information, it seems that they are careful not to "distort" or "defile" it, which I find a little odd.
This last point is something I would particularly like to know how to handle. Since my players don't spend all their freetime with their heads in the rulebooks, I have decided to make a sheet of paper for each of the players with "Common Knowledge" that they would know, based on their race and background, but would like for them to expand on it with their characters' own experiences and life,...
Ah, yes. Had the same problem last session.
Just talk to your players. Say that the information you give out is written with the intention of keeping the word count down (I write notes to give out during play) and that it's perfectly okey, even fun, if they do their bit to give the information a bit more flair.
If they do it wrong (as Anguish brought up), assure them that you've got the ability to correct them without making their characters look incompetent. Say they find claw marks and a player wrongly states that they look like they're made by a dog, you simply add »but they're too large for a common dog«.
1.- Let them try the new Feat for a couple of session then allow retrain at anytime for chosen feat.
2.- Have them roll an INT or SAB check for "general knowledge" or "memory recall" about something similar, past experiences, Insight or cunning. These could grant a small hint regarding the given situation, but not more than that, make them exercise the Pro and Con of each decision they take.
3.- Deliver some crucial and personal information to your new players about themselbes, something that may embarass them, or create a leverage for the other players against them, or, if they are good aligned, some secrets they have to keep in order to save the whole party. This way they will have to edit this information, and the more experienced players will have to roll a SM, which will make the whole situation more intense, which is always nice. If you want to add some flavor, give them some false information aswel.
Regards!.-
Thanks for the answers all, they have been a help. Appreciate it :)
Anguish wrote: I don't know that there's a problem here Well I wouldn't say problem myself, more of an oddity. Since they are so good at engaging with the setting and enviroment, it felt a little disengaging and broke the immersion when they suddenly just began copying my words to the rest of the party.
Raiziel wrote: You should ask the player what they want their character to be able to do, how they want them to develop, what they want to be better at, etc. [...] Since they are new, instead of tossing a book full of feats and other options at them, ask them the above questions, then guide them toward options for that. They might also get ideas from things the other players do; "Oh, cool, I didn't know I could flourish my weapon in combat and distract and intimidate our enemies; I want to try that too!" That was actually what I was trying to do, but I didn't do it all that well. I will do some preparation before next level up
MuertoXSky wrote: 1.- Let them try the new Feat for a couple of session then allow retrain at anytime for chosen feat. I don't know why I didn't think of that. That is a good idea
MuertoXsky wrote: 2.- Have them roll an INT or SAB check for "general knowledge" or "memory recall" about something similar, past experiences, Insight or cunning. These could grant a small hint regarding the given situation, but not more than that, make them exercise the Pro and Con of each decision they take. I may have missed to say that I have yet to actually provide information in such a case. My experienced players are actually very good at making up ideas and get the new players into the discussion, my wonder was more at the general speed at which my new players decided to ask me.
MuertoXSky wrote: 3.- Deliver some crucial and personal information to your new players about themselbes, something that may embarass them, or create a leverage for the other players against them, or, if they are good aligned, some secrets they have to keep in order to save the whole party. This way they will have to edit this information, and the more experienced players will have to roll a SM, which will make the whole situation more intense, which is always nice. If you want to add some flavor, give them some false information aswel. This is what I am working on right now, and these are some good ideas, thanks for that
Thanks all for the answers. The help is much appreciated ^^
In response to the situations described:
1. Yep, something else would be more generally used, so you were correct. It's the same advice I'd have given as another player. IF you want to though, just go ask if they're satisfied with what they picked and explain options for retraining if not.
2. Tell them you're the producer but they're the directors of their own characters. You make sure the story continues, they deal with their characters lines, actions, and choreography within the provided stage.
3. I'd seriously enjoy having a verbatim or two players. The opposite is WAY more of a problem when handing out info as a GM. IF it bothers you though, don't think of it as Odd, think of it as respecting your delivery skills and them not wanting to leave out crucial clues which you may or may not have given. IF you still want that to stop, rattle out a ton of info so that they have to summarize (unless they have perfect auditory recall, in which case they probably don't have a choice about reciting it as said).
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