Rules Interaction: Elemental Commixture / Frostbite

[Lady Melo]

I'm wondering if there is anything I am missing about the interaction between these two.

Feat:Elemental Commixture and Spell: Frostbite

If it matters (since I have seen debate on it) we are using Frostbite as a no time limit (other the how you break holding a touch spell charge) Caster level number of touches later, can be used multiple times with iterative attacks, or even many times with a way to deliver it through natural attacks/weapons. With Reach spell on it, we have the charge still being held in the hand (for accidental discharge) but can be used as a ranged weapon (even rapid shot allowing more touches; not that anyone is actually planning on using it as such).

With Elemental Commixture and Frostbite (as above) it is easy to prepare it before battle making the action economy not matter, well the DC's are low players are willing to invest to solve that problem and use it as a major fighting method (Spell strikes, druid natural attacks, familiar's 3x pounces, so on)

Well I am familiar with how powerful higher level spells eventually get I am curios what people feel about allowing this combo applying (nauseated/blind) per hit or Reach rimefrost with mud elemental. We currently have tentatively ruled that it might only effect the first touch but I'm looking to see if people have any RAW insights I missed, or just input on it's overall effectiveness.

[DerangedSquid]

Elemental Commixture wrote:

When the spells to be commixed are cast, one is designated as the primary spell (typically the higher-level spell), while the other is the secondary spell. The primary spell must be an offensive spell that targets an area or one or more creatures. The secondary spell can be any spell with an appropriate descriptor.

I would read that as disqualifying Frostbite from being the primary spell, as frostbite isn't really an offensive spell, but rather a buff spell that grants a touch attack (as you cast it on yourself or a friendly target rather than on an enemy). It could still be used as the secondary spell, but in that case its normal effects would not manifest so the question would be moot.

[Zantigar]

DerangedSquid wrote:

Elemental Commixture wrote:

When the spells to be commixed are cast, one is designated as the primary spell (typically the higher-level spell), while the other is the secondary spell. The primary spell must be an offensive spell that targets an area or one or more creatures. The secondary spell can be any spell with an appropriate descriptor.

I would read that as disqualifying Frostbite from being the primary spell, as frostbite isn't really an offensive spell, but rather a buff spell that grants a touch attack (as you cast it on yourself or a friendly target rather than on an enemy). It could still be used as the secondary spell, but in that case its normal effects would not manifest so the question would be moot.

I disagree. Frostbite expressly targets the "creature touched," just like, say, shocking grasp, frost touch, vampiric touch, etc. As for "offensive" ... simply consult Special Spell Effects section of the PRD page on "magic":

PRD wrote:

Attacks: Some spell descriptions refer to attacking. All offensive combat actions, even those that don't damage opponents, are considered attacks. Attempts to channel energy count as attacks if it would harm any creatures in the area. All spells that opponents resist with saving throws, that deal damage, or that otherwise harm or hamper subjects are attacks. Spells that summon monsters or other allies are not attacks because the spells themselves don't harm anyone.

Frostbite pretty clearly falls into this definition of "attack," as it both deals damage (nonlethal, granted) and "harms or hampers" its target by imposing a detrimental condition.

I suppose that, theoretically, there could be spells that are "attacks" but are not "offensive." But it's hard to think of a case, and frostbite sure doesn't feel like one.

[DerangedSquid]

Yeah, re-reading Frostbite again, it is less clear than I'd originally thought that it is a buff rather than an attack. The only thing that really hints that it might be is the fact that it is a transmutation, and the targets line kind of implies the opposite. At the time I'd misread it and thought you could cast it on other friendly targets, and that it was clear that the target was the creature gaining the touch attack rather than the creature being attacked. Upon re-reading it, I'd actually read it the other way, meaning it would be an offensive spell and would qualify.

Given that, I don't think there is clear RAW on how these things interact. I could see several ways that would make sense. Personally, given that the secondary effects seem tied to targets rather than damage, I'd probably go with a once per target per casting sort of ruling, but I don't think that that is necessarily any more correct than just the first target, or on every touch attack.