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tl;dr Brute Vigilantes aren't even that good at pretending to be the hulk and even if you want to play one you should probably just go dex also why does this archetype have so many downsides eugh.
When I first looked at this archetype, I wasn't impressed, but upon closer inspection I realized it was much, much worse.
It basically just trades out your specialization for a free enlarge (without the stats) and a some attack/damage bonuses starting at 5. In return you had a ridiculous will save you had to make every time you started combat or risk giving up your social identity and turning into a monster... and an even more ridiculous will save to avoid attacking your allies after combat ended.
It's like 3.5's Frenzied Berserker, only worse because the will save scales with your level and thanks to Brutish Fortitude, it scales faster than your base will save. Glad someone looked at FB and though "this 3.5 prestige class isn't party ruining enough".
Anyways, after I got over my disgust with that class feature I looked at it again and that's where my heart really sank. See, the worst thing about the Brute isn't making dual identity borderline pointless, or the ridiculous will saves, or long lasting fatigue when you exit the form, or the non-scaling duration.
It's everything else, because despite getting so many weaknesses and so many penalties, the stuff you get in return isn't that great and it fails to do a good job living up to its own fantasy.
Now when I say fantasy, I mean what people envision when they think about the class. The most obvious inspiration for the Brute is The Hulk, right? So what exactly is the hulk known for?
Well, the Hulk is incredibly strong, that's an easy one. The Brute has no particular strength synergy at all. In fact the best way to build a brute is probably going to be a dex based build that picks up lethal grace, but more on that later. That said, large sized fists using the monk progression and a small scaling bonus to hit and damage does give you one of the biggest sets of dice a player can roll. So that's not bad.
The Hulk is also incredibly tough... and this is where the Brute really falls flat, because instead of being an unstoppable juggernaut, the Brute is actually one of the squishiest classes in the entire game. You've got a penalty to AC baked into your class feature and basically can't wear armor until level 4. That means you can actually expect to see a level 1 Brute running 8 or 9 AC. On a d8. Level 1 wizards look like unbreakable juggernauts compared to you.
Of course, even when you do get armor, sizing equipment gives you a -1 to AC (just like enlarge person) which means that your +1 mithral breastplate is basically just studded leather. Ouch. A very permissive DM might allow you to buy large sized armor and put it o after you change to ignore the talent tax and the -1, but that doesn't seem in line with how the Brute is supposed to act, so ETV.
Oh, you also have a bad reflex save, so eating full damage from every fireball. So you're basically the most tissue paper class in the entire game.
This is one of the main reasons why Dex brutes are probably the best.
The Hulk is also really good at jumping. Actually lots of monsters that fit under similar categories are. Not much to say here, but yeah your jump checks are going to be ass. Even a dex build isn't going to do much better here. If you're mythic you can pick up Seven League Leap but everyone can do that and that feat is only really great for large distances. A lesser version (One League Leap?) would have been cool here, but that's the least of the Brute's concerns.
The hulk is really good at smashing through walls and stuff. Your big damage dice and bonus to damage rolls helps here, but you have no particular ability to smash things.
The hulk is uncontrollable and the Brute does this... ish. This is mostly an RP concern rather than a mechanical one, but while there are many stories where the Hulk is just a beast, there are just as many where the hulk has a moment where something convinces him to stop smashing or someone forms a connection with him and this is unfortunately impossible. The Brute is either on and attacking or off and changing back into the social identity. Again not the worst thing, but it's still a shame.
Now one thing the Brute does do well is damage. Large fists do a lot of damage and with the right feat support it can really add up. Enabling that damage can be unfortunately difficult though. They get no native access to pounce and because they can't use their Brute BAB to qualify for feats they can't get pummeling charge until 17. Seven levels after the Barbarian and nine levels after a brawler or monk. Kinda sucks.
Talents. Brute Talents are actually pretty cool. They can pick up Awesome Blow at 8. Guess Paizo figured out that a single attack that knocks someone prone is kind of bad at level 16. Heavy Punches is basically mandatory unless you really want to use a weapon, which both makes it an awesome talent and disappointing that it isn't baseline. Ditto for Sizing equipment unless you have a permissive enough DM as I mentioned earlier. Total Destruction is also kinda cool.
But again, the issue with the Brute isn't the talents it gets, but the talents it doesn't get because it's not an avenger. I understand that specialization specific talents are important to help define a specialization, but losing access to extra combat feats and pounce on such a combat oriented chassis really hurts and while it's not as mechanically important, Nothing Can Stop Me is the most Hulk sounding talent in the entire book and it feels so wrong that Brutes can't pick it up. Unkillable is pretty thematic too.
Ultimately, permanent enlarge isn't that expensive and while the Brute's is slightly better and much so for dex builds, it's not worth all the hoops you have to jump through and so many of them feel really pointless.
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Guess it's not for you. It's an archtype so hardly game breaking.
Well yeah, but it's an archetype that could have been really interesting if it wasn't dragged down by so many restrictions and drawbacks. As is it practically feels like an NPC archetype.
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Yeah, I'm inclined to agree with you, OP. The Brute doesn't necessarily need to be a combat monster, but it does need to be true to its own strengths. The AC and HP problems are massive, and probably should be addressed. A d8 hit die with class features that make you more fragile is a huge problem. I think that, offensively, the Brute is about where it should be, but it's missing some crucial survivability elements.
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I'm holding out hope that there was some kind of accidental editorial error that left out something(s) that would make this archetype worthwhile. As is, you're better off being a default avenger and chugging potions of enlarge person on the regular to fulfill the hulk fantasy.
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Brute is legit one of the worst archetypes Paizo has designed.
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I was definitely disappointed in the Brute, particularly in its lack of defensive/stamina abilities that would have been both thematically appropriate and mechanically necessary for the archetype to be really viable.
I don't know that I'd go so far as to call it the worst archetype Paizo has ever designed, but it definitely isn't amongst the ranks of the best. I'd call it a glass cannon, but even its actual "cannon" abilities aren't that great; its per hit damage is good, but it won't hold up to peers like the Barbarian, who will both hit harder and last longer.
I could see homebrewing in a d12 hit die and a good Will save to help make the class more viable, and I honestly probably wouldn't make it give anything up in exchange.
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It's like the ragechemist, kinda looks cool but would be a pain to actually play.
I think something that would really help it be neat is if they changed the DC for fighting friend from DC 20+level to DC 20-level.
SO early on your friends need to help you from killing them. But as you level you gain control of yourself more, to the point at lv20 that you no longer have to worry, you're in full control all the time.
That seems cool to me.
Also I think it could use a scaling untyped STR and probably CON that goes up as it levels tied to the large size. At lv4 and every 4 it gets +2 str, lv5 and every 5 +2 con. You'd be able to remove the bonus attack and damage if you wanted since you're now getting that through the str bonus.
This gives you the ability to smash things cause your str is going up giving you bonuses to the smash checks. And it makes you more survivable since you're getting more HP. So yeah you start off squshy, but you end up with +4 hp per level just from the class, giving you 1d8+4 at lv20, a better average than 1d12, and a pretty insane fort save.
Also instead/in addition to the stat boosting above, give them some scaling DR or Natural armor. starting at 1 at 3rd and increasing every 3 thereafter. This also helps deliver on the tougher fantasy when enlarged.
My reasoning for these is that it seems this class has tons of take aways from the base vigilante and no special perks. The only advantage it has prior to talents is it's large, increasing reach and damage die. To get this it gets 1 good save instead of 2, the high chance to start fighting friends, no gear, chance to waste first round of combat if surprised, and I feel there was more bad things I can't remember right now.
As for talents, nothing special here. Some are helping to negate a few of the penalties you have, so instead of getting something it's just patching a hole. And the others aren't "OMG this is awesome!" they are pretty equal in power to talents the vigilante has and trades.
So either being large sometime is WAY better than we give credit for, or this archetype as is takes more than it gives.
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It's meant more for enemies/Antagonists than player characters. It's main "feature" isn't so much the transformation as it is the DC 20 + Character Level Will save you have to make to avoid "hulking out" when stressed or after enemies are gone in order to not kill your allies or other non-combatants.
When a class' main feature pops up constantly and causes infighting I would not allow it for a PC.
If you buff it up it changes from infighting to a good chance of constantly having a party TPK on your hands.
The archetype allows you to tell stories/adventures about some poor bastard that can't control themselves from shifting into a murderous beast, similar to lycanthropes.
If you want to play a character that transforms and it's just a plain upgrade just play a class with wildshape or mutagen.
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Guess it's not for you. It's an archtype so hardly game breaking.
I really dislike this sort of sentiment. The OP went to a lot of trouble to go through exactly why the archetype fails to represent its concept or source material well while also being an extremely mechanically weak option that encourages anti-thematic choices. A dismissive response like this reminds me of a certain Penny Arcade strip.
Entirely in theory someone, somewhere might like anything. However, generally speaking, I don't think it is controversial to say that people prefer archetypes that mechanically support their flavor and are similarly powerful (even if it is in very different ways). Therefore I think a well thought out and thorough criticism like this is quite valid and not deserving of such a dismissive response. It is like saying "it is not for you" when someone criticizes a chocolate cake recipe for being made entirely of gravel and salami.
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the vigilante in general has a lot of terrible decisions involved in it, it's archetypes are horribly underwhelming, some examples:
- Wildsoul -
Spider:
congratulations, you just spent 18 levels waiting to become spiderman, while the party wizard's worldbending powers make you completely insignificant, the party bard is a better socialite than you and the party fighter could gut you in a single round.
Bird:
You get a fly speed at level 12, when a kineticist gets it at level 6.
Bear:
You get claws at level 2, but you have to wait another 4 levels for a bite, why?
Natural Armor +1 at 12th level, meh.
at 18th level you get access to Beast Shape 2 at will. Why even bother at that point when even a half caster could blow you up.
- Warlock -
Mystic Bolts are limited to energy types instead of doing magic damage like 3.5, and aren't automatically touch attacks, in fact this whole archetype seems completely pointless with the Kineticist being a class.
the gunmaster is okay i guess and pretty much all of the spellcasting archetypes get pass because they get spellcasting, but otherwise there are some really strange choices in the vigilante class and archetypes as a whole
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I considered the gray paladin archetype to be worse but this one is not a winner either.
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It's meant more for enemies/Antagonists than player characters...
If you buff it up it changes from infighting to a good chance of constantly having a party TPK on your hands.
The archetype allows you to tell stories/adventures about some poor bastard that can't control themselves from shifting into a murderous beast, similar to lycanthropes.
You seem to contradict yourself. If it is an NPC class that shouldn't be allowed to a PC an infighting TPK does not matter, and it should be stronger. If it is a PC class then balancing "attacking your party" with "being weak" is just awful, it makes you doubly useless.
Essentially, despite being forced to make the save, it does not support telling a story about someone becoming a "murderous beast." It supports someone becoming an "angry, tall weakling" that just ripped his trousers. Basically, instead of the Hulk you are Mr. Furious.
There is a place for classes best suited to antagonists. However, I do not think this weak class that cannot accomplish the thematic actions described by OP does a good job at that either.
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It's meant more for enemies/Antagonists than player characters...
If you buff it up it changes from infighting to a good chance of constantly having a party TPK on your hands.
The archetype allows you to tell stories/adventures about some poor bastard that can't control themselves from shifting into a murderous beast, similar to lycanthropes.
You seem to contradict yourself. If it is an NPC class that shouldn't be allowed to a PC an infighting TPK does not matter, and it should be stronger. If it is a PC class then balancing "attacking your party" with "being weak" is just awful, it makes you doubly useless.
Essentially, despite being forced to make the save, it does not support telling a story about someone becoming a "murderous beast." It supports someone becoming an "angry, tall weakling" that just ripped his trousers. Basically, instead of the Hulk you are Mr. Furious.
There is a place for classes best suited to antagonists. However, I do not think this weak class that cannot accomplish the thematic actions described by OP does a good job at that either.
I didn't contradict myself at all. Just because they decided to make this an archetype instead of a template doesn't make it PC friendly. Paizo slapping a big "do not allow your Players to use this archetype" label on it wouldn't have done anything, and it's up to the GM's digression anyway in what all content a player is allowed to use
And seeing as how you if you fail your save you try to kill allies and noncombatants then, yeah, pretty much a murderous beast.
I didn't contradict myself at all. Just because they decided to make this an archetype instead of a template doesn't make it PC friendly. Paizo slapping a big "do not allow your Players to use this archetype" label on it wouldn't have done anything, and it's up to the GM's digression anyway in what all content a player is allowed to use
And seeing as how you if you fail your save you try to kill allies and noncombatants then, yeah, pretty much a murderous beast.
Huh? You didn't contradict yourself on it being an NPC option. You contradicted yourself by saying the horrible Will save was okay because it was an NPC class, but it had to be weak because as a PC class it could TPK the party. That just makes it horrible at both jobs.
Also, my sister's cat regularly gets very upset about too many or too few pets and tries to murder people, but that makes her "adorable" rather than a "murderous beast." As with everything, there is a certain level of efficacy required to be a legitimate threat instead of a joke. Unless you hugely over-level them this archetype falls in the latter category.
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I didn't contradict myself at all. Just because they decided to make this an archetype instead of a template doesn't make it PC friendly. Paizo slapping a big "do not allow your Players to use this archetype" label on it wouldn't have done anything, and it's up to the GM's digression anyway in what all content a player is allowed to use
And seeing as how you if you fail your save you try to kill allies and noncombatants then, yeah, pretty much a murderous beast.
Huh? You didn't contradict yourself on it being an NPC option. You contradicted yourself by saying the horrible Will save was okay because it was an NPC class, but it had to be weak because as a PC class it could TPK the party. That just makes it horrible at both jobs.
Also, my sister's cat regularly gets very upset about too many or too few pets and tries to murder people, but that makes her "adorable" rather than a "murderous beast." As with everything, there is a certain level of efficacy required to be a legitimate threat instead of a joke. Unless you hugely over-level them this archetype falls in the latter category.
What? I didn't say anything about its will saves.
What? I didn't say anything about its will saves.
Yes, you did:
It's main "feature" isn't so much the transformation as it is the DC 20 + Character Level Will save you have to make to avoid "hulking out" when stressed or after enemies are gone in order to not kill your allies or other non-combatants.
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What? I didn't say anything about its will saves.Yes, you did:
It's main "feature" isn't so much the transformation as it is the DC 20 + Character Level Will save you have to make to avoid "hulking out" when stressed or after enemies are gone in order to not kill your allies or other non-combatants.
Derp.
I misread your post as saying will saves, my bad.
Regardless, I never said it was okay. I said it was a feature of the class, and no matter if it was a high DC or an extremely low DC I would not allow it as a PC option.
In retrospect "Will save" could easily have meant the reduced Will save of the class, and was not as clear as it could have been. Sorry about that.
The point is that you argued for it as an NPC option that needed to be nerfed for a group of PCs. If it is an NPC option it should really be able to do the basic Hulk stuff described in the OP. If it is a PC option making them make a Will save to not murder the party is (as you've pointed out) disruptive infighting that doesn't really work.
However, doing both makes it bad at both. As an NPC it won't be able to accomplish standard "Hulk" tasks of destruction, and is so weak it isn't much of a threat for its level at all. As a PC hulking out will be disruptive, even if the class isn't terribly strong. So we've got a situation where it doesn't accomplish either goal well.
I'd agree there is a place for a "Hulk Out" archetype that doesn't necessarily work for PCs without special consideration. However, I don't think just having a forced transformation is enough for that. It needs mechanics that support being the Hulk, which this class does not have.
the vigilante in general has a lot of terrible decisions involved in it, it's archetypes are horribly underwhelming, some examples:
- Wildsoul -
Spider:
congratulations, you just spent 18 levels waiting to become spiderman, while the party wizard's worldbending powers make you completely insignificant, the party bard is a better socialite than you and the party fighter could gut you in a single round.
Bird:
You get a fly speed at level 12, when a kineticist gets it at level 6.
Bear:
You get claws at level 2, but you have to wait another 4 levels for a bite, why?
Natural Armor +1 at 12th level, meh.
at 18th level you get access to Beast Shape 2 at will. Why even bother at that point when even a half caster could blow you up.
- Warlock -
Mystic Bolts are limited to energy types instead of doing magic damage like 3.5, and aren't automatically touch attacks, in fact this whole archetype seems completely pointless with the Kineticist being a class.
the gunmaster is okay i guess and pretty much all of the spellcasting archetypes get pass because they get spellcasting, but otherwise there are some really strange choices in the vigilante class and archetypes as a whole
Too be fair to the warlock, I think the mystic bolts are really secondary to the Sixth level casting. It makes for a good Wizard substitute if the player doesn't want to be a nineth level caster (or if nineth level casters are banned), or even just combined spellcasting with the Vigilante's other class features.
If you look at mystic bolts as "as attack cantrip+" instead of the core of the archetype, it comes off a great deal better.
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In retrospect "Will save" could easily have meant the reduced Will save of the class, and was not as clear as it could have been. Sorry about that.
The point is that you argued for it as an NPC option that needed to be nerfed for a group of PCs. If it is an NPC option it should really be able to do the basic Hulk stuff described in the OP. If it is a PC option making them make a Will save to not murder the party is (as you've pointed out) disruptive infighting that doesn't really work.
However, doing both makes it bad at both. As an NPC it won't be able to accomplish standard "Hulk" tasks of destruction, and is so weak it isn't much of a threat for its level at all. As a PC hulking out will be disruptive, even if the class isn't terribly strong. So we've got a situation where it doesn't accomplish either goal well.
I'd agree there is a place for a "Hulk Out" archetype that doesn't necessarily work for PCs without special consideration. However, I don't think just having a forced transformation is enough for that. It needs mechanics that support being the Hulk, which this class does not have.
Nah, you're fine. I was just reading through too fast.
While I'm arguing against having it buffed, I've not argued for it to be nerfed to be a PC option. I'm arguing that it shouldn't be a PC option at all. The fact that it is a PC option though currently probably explains it not getting buffed out when it transforms though.
And I don't like the option of it being able to be destructive towards other PCs as an improvement.
Everyone is basically arguing "Hey?! Why isn't this archetype that goes berserk and tries to kill other characters every single fight buffed up so it actually can kill other characters easier?"
And I'm just thinking, what!? Why do you people want that to be a thing?
Infringes too much into the Alchemists territory IMO
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Everyone is basically arguing "Hey?! Why isn't this archetype that goes berserk and tries to kill other characters every single fight buffed up so it actually can kill other characters easier?"
And I'm just thinking, what!? Why do you people want that to be a thing?
To me, I think it needs a few more tweaks than just adjusting its durability. I honestly don't think a poor Will save was the right call; a character constantly battling their inner demon should have a better Will save than the average schmuck whose mind isn't forged in that kind of crucible. A good Will save would also help alleviate the current issue where the class actually becomes less proficient in controlling their inner rage monster as their level increases.
I think a good Will save plus some defensive shoring up (I've suggested giving the Brute 2x class level temp hp when he transforms and a scaling natural armor bonus equal to 1/4 class level, min. 1) would make this a really solid archetype and something I'd actually consider allowing at the table.
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Everyone is basically arguing "Hey?! Why isn't this archetype that goes berserk and tries to kill other characters every single fight buffed up so it actually can kill other characters easier?"And I'm just thinking, what!? Why do you people want that to be a thing?
I think the key thing here is that they want an archetype that's a decent trade. Why would anyone ever play a brute when you get almost no benefit out of it? Why bother with the archetype if it doesn't model what it's meant to? It just seems pointless as is, because there's no reason, for good or bad, for it to exist. At the moment the trade off for a PC is: Will save or kill your allies on the cons, and the pros being... permanent fake-enlarge person? It's just not even a valid option.
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I think the key thing here is that they want an archetype that's a decent trade. Why would anyone ever play a brute when you get almost no benefit out of it? Why bother with the archetype if it doesn't model what it's meant to? It just seems pointless as is, because there's no reason, for good or bad, for it to exist. At the moment the trade off for a PC is: Will save or kill your allies on the cons, and the pros being... permanent fake-enlarge person? It's just not even a valid option.
Everyone is basically arguing "Hey?! Why isn't this archetype that goes berserk and tries to kill other characters every single fight buffed up so it actually can kill other characters easier?"And I'm just thinking, what!? Why do you people want that to be a thing?
The crippling AC penalties (-3 to your AC and you break your already light armor when you transform? Yikes!) combined with two bad saves really hurt its viability as well. You're looking at an archetype with a d8 hit die that needs a minimum 16 Dex at 1st level just to have a 10 AC. It also needs points in WIS if it wants to be able to ever make the save to control its transformation. The complete lack of AC, a Reflex save, and really any defensive class features to speak of, means you absolutely have to pump your Con, and if you want to do the one thing the archetype has any facility for (smashing things) you also need Str... You essentially have an option that's even more MAD than the Monk with substantially fewer benefits.
The bummer here is that the idea is really cool and something people would love to play, but the execution means that the character will almost always be a much larger liability than it will ever be an asset. It wouldn't take much to fix it either; a good Will save, 2x class level in temp hp when it transforms, and maybe something like the Invulnerable Rager's Invulnerable class feature for decent DR and you're really close to a well-balanced and functional character option.
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I think the key thing here is that they want an archetype that's a decent trade. Why would anyone ever play a brute when you get almost no benefit out of it? Why bother with the archetype if it doesn't model what it's meant to? It just seems pointless as is, because there's no reason, for good or bad, for it to exist. At the moment the trade off for a PC is: Will save or kill your allies on the cons, and the pros being... permanent fake-enlarge person? It's just not even a valid option.
Everyone is basically arguing "Hey?! Why isn't this archetype that goes berserk and tries to kill other characters every single fight buffed up so it actually can kill other characters easier?"And I'm just thinking, what!? Why do you people want that to be a thing?
The crippling AC penalties combined with two bad saves really hurt its viability as well. You're looking at an archetype with a d8 hit die that needs a minimum 16 Dex at 1st level just to have a 10 AC. It also needs points in WIS if it wants to be able to ever make the save to control its transformation. The complete lack of AC, a Reflex save, and really any defensive class features to speak of, means you absolutely have to pump your Con, and if you want to do the one thing the archetype has any facility for (smashing things) you also need Str... You essentially have an option that's even more MAD than the Monk with substantially fewer benefits.
The bummer here is that the idea is really cool and something people would love to play, but the execution means that the character will almost always be a much larger liability than it will ever be an asset. It wouldn't take much to fix it either; a good Will save, 2x class level in temp hp when it transforms, and maybe something like the Invulnerable Rager's Invulnerable class feature for decent DR and you're really close to a well-balanced and functional character option.
Exactly my thoughts! I was just going for a quick summary - there are a host of other cons as you point out, and almost no pros.
My guess is the concept of the archetypical character was meant to be the Hulk (pretty obviously), a character where you have the downside of having a lack of control over your change and change back, and the danger of fighting your own allies, ruining your identities differentiation, and general destruction caused. The upside would therefore logically be being very strong, hard to kill, and very focused in your rage - high STR, HP bonuses/AC bonuses or at least not an AC penalty, and a good will save, would all be logical for the character. I don't know what they were thinking.
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on another note... can it at least pull off "Bruce Banner"? Only one identity technically needs to be useful, but it doesn't sound like either one is great with this archetype.
Nope, since bruce banner in this case needs high strength, dexterity, constitution and wisdom to be playable. Meaning his intelligence would have to be far less than genius level.
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on another note... can it at least pull off "Bruce Banner"? Only one identity technically needs to be useful, but it doesn't sound like either one is great with this archetype.Nope, since bruce banner in this case needs high strength, dexterity, constitution and wisdom to be playable. Meaning his intelligence would have to be far less than genius level.
Hey now, the archetype works super well for Bruce Banner + the Hulk when you roll 18,18,18,18,18,18 as your stats! ;)
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the vigilante in general has a lot of terrible decisions involved in it, it's archetypes are horribly underwhelming, some examples:
I strongly disagree with this. The Brute is terrible, but most other Vigilante Archetypes are very solid.
- Wildsoul -
Spider:
congratulations, you just spent 18 levels waiting to become spiderman, while the party wizard's worldbending powers make you completely insignificant, the party bard is a better socialite than you and the party fighter could gut you in a single round.
Uh...with +4s in several skills, I'm not sure at all that the Bard is a better socialite. And the Wizard makes everyone irrelevant who isn't a spellcaster.
And if you go Avenger, you can pretty easily be in the Fighter's league in melee combat, plus actually pretty good at non-combat stuff.
Bird:
You get a fly speed at level 12, when a kineticist gets it at level 6.
Does a Kineticist gain the ability to automatically pass as a random peasant at 5th, dual identities, and a +4 bonus to three different skills by the same level? No? Then this maybe isn't a good comparison.
Kineticist is a good Class. But comparing one ability it has to a Vigilante in isolation of other factors is silly. Well-Versed is way worse than Evasion, too, but that doesn't mean that a Rogue is better than a Bard.
Bear:
You get claws at level 2, but you have to wait another 4 levels for a bite, why?
Why not? Basically nobody gets a second attack at 2nd, and nobody gets three natural attacks at-will at that level from Class.
Natural Armor +1 at 12th level, meh.
It scales up. And most Vigilante Talents are about as good as two or three Feats, so a scaling Natural Armor bonus is maybe a little weak, but not too bad.
at 18th level you get access to Beast Shape 2 at will. Why even bother at that point when even a half caster could blow you up.
Sure. It's a little pointless. So are a lot of capstones, and it only costs you one Talent.
- Warlock -
Mystic Bolts are limited to energy types instead of doing magic damage like 3.5, and aren't automatically touch attacks, in fact this whole archetype seems completely pointless with the Kineticist being a class.
Uh...did you miss the 6-level casting from the Wizard list? This isn't intended to be a replacement for the 3.5 Warlock (Kineticist is indeed better for that), it's something else.
the gunmaster is okay i guess and pretty much all of the spellcasting archetypes get pass because they get spellcasting, but otherwise there are some really strange choices in the vigilante class and archetypes as a whole
I strongly disagree. Once again, Brute's bad, but the rest are actually very solid.
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I think the key thing here is that they want an archetype that's a decent trade. Why would anyone ever play a brute when you get almost no benefit out of it? Why bother with the archetype if it doesn't model what it's meant to? It just seems pointless as is, because there's no reason, for good or bad, for it to exist. At the moment the trade off for a PC is: Will save or kill your allies on the cons, and the pros being... permanent fake-enlarge person? It's just not even a valid option.
Everyone is basically arguing "Hey?! Why isn't this archetype that goes berserk and tries to kill other characters every single fight buffed up so it actually can kill other characters easier?"And I'm just thinking, what!? Why do you people want that to be a thing?
There are plenty of other creatures and characters that have uncontrollable transformations as their gimmick, not just Hulk. If you want to play a Bruce Banner/Hulk SMASH character then an Alchemist would be a better choice honestly.
Frankly, there is nothing you could give this archetype to make "a decent trade" with trying to kill your allies every fight or stressful situation. No matter what areas of it you buff up, the continuous chance of murdering your allies and noncombatants will always eclipse any good points of the archetype.
You could give it a Paladin's Divine Grace, and I still wouldn't play it, or let any of my players use it.
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Bird:
You get a fly speed at level 12, when a kineticist gets it at level 6.
Does a Kineticist gain the ability to automatically pass as a random peasant at 5th, dual identities, and a +4 bonus to three different skills by the same level? No? Then this maybe isn't a good comparison.
Kineticist is a good Class. But comparing one ability it has to a Vigilante in isolation of other factors is silly. Well-Versed is way worse than Evasion, too, but that doesn't mean that a Rogue is better than a Bard.
XD
An even better one would be: Chained Rogue gets Evasion at 2nd level, Ranger gets Evasion at 9th. Ergo, Chained Rogue is better than Ranger :3
Dr Jekyll & Mr. Hyde is what came to my mind, which is unfortunate since (by RAW) the dual alignments have to be within one step of each other (so no Chaotic Hyde and Lawful Jekyll). Still, that's probably the simplest house rule ever...
Considering that The Hulk is basically just a modern retelling of Jeckyll and Hyde, that's not a surprise.
tl;dr Brute Vigilantes aren't even that good at pretending to be the hulk and even if you want to play one you should probably just go dex also why does this archetype have so many downsides eugh.
I feel like you should rank up your Wisdom first and foremost, to avoid berserking on your allies.
There are ways to help:
- The Brute has +6 for a Will Save by 20th level, because of Brutish Fortitude.
- Iron Will adds +2 to Will Saves
- A Cloak of Resistance adds up to +5 to saves
- A defiant weapon would help, up to +5 for non-epic levels. However... 1) it would have to be a gauntlet to take advantage of the unarmed strike and 2) it's a bit unclear if defiant would apply to that condition. Is it a mind-affecting effect?
- Good Wisdom score, say 20, for +5.
6 + 2 + 5 + 5 + 5 = +23 for a Will Save by 20th level... and you would need to roll 7 or higher.
Furthermore, if you're in a party of 4, you included, the other 3 can Aid Other for +6 to the Will Save.
23 + 6 = +29 for a Will Save by 20th level... and you would need to roll 2 or higher.
Yes, it's expensive to the extreme, but if it's to avoid one-shotting your own party, I'd say that the investment is worth it.
Okay, that offsets it slightly, but most group don't start at level 20, they start at level 1.
True, but for a DC 20 Will save, you can lean on a high Wisdom score, the Iron Will feat and the Aid Other action. Just with the last two, that can be a bonus +8 to your save (assuming that you have 3 allies). I know it's a pain in the you-know-where, but it's not like you can't crank your Wisdom score from the get-go, depending on your stat rolls.
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Dr Jekyll & Mr. Hyde is what came to my mind, which is unfortunate since (by RAW) the dual alignments have to be within one step of each other (so no Chaotic Hyde and Lawful Jekyll). Still, that's probably the simplest house rule ever...
That is an easy houserule, but imo the Master Chymist does Jekyll and Hyde much better.
I'm just not impressed by the whole shebang.
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Okay, that offsets it slightly, but most group don't start at level 20, they start at level 1.True, but for a DC 20 Will save, you can lean on a high Wisdom score, the Iron Will feat and the Aid Other action. Just with the last two, that can be a bonus +8 to your save (assuming that you have 3 allies). I know it's a pain in the you-know-where, but it's not like you can't crank your Wisdom score from the get-go, depending on your stat rolls.
As much as I like having a high wisdom with Point Buy that limits how much you can buff it up. And the Aid Another takes Standard Actions from teammates, require them to succeed on said check, requiring skill and ability requirements on them to do so, and the Brute can still fail their save.
No matter how much you buff it up there is not auto-success.
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Put 1 level into Avenger Vigilante and the rest into Abyssal Bloodrager. Then you can rage, grow large with claws, and you don't have to fight the party.
Do this. Decent Cha for the Vigilante stuff, and then you get to Hulk out for fun. If you want to play it for laughs, be Lawful Good, brush your hair nicely, and when you rage you are an Aberrant bloodrager with Monstrous Physique II, Eruptive Pustules and Face of the Devourer.
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Hmmm... Large size has a couple of other bonuses: the Intimidate bonus for being larger than one's target seems helpful to a vigilante, and the extra carrying capacity makes you the party 'pack mule'. Since you start with IUS then taking Improved Grapple would also seem an appropriate way to turn that size to your advantage.
With this archetype I'd assume you'd usually 'hulk out' by choice before setting off adventuring (or, at least, the non-social aspects of adventuring) so you would indeed want to buy size-appropriate gear. You're still proficient with shields, so you could wear studded leather (or even better, if you could somehow swing it with the GM: parade armour for the extra Intimidate bonus) and carry a heavy wooden shield, for example, at level one (costs are doubled for large-sized gear, but the vigilante class is pretty flush compared with most) which would offset your AC penalties a little (but you're hardly a tank). You may be better off spending 100gp of your starting ca$h on a large-sized heavy crossbow for a nice 2d8 damage ranged attack.
Weapon-wise, instead of going with a shield, I'd suggest taking the Rough and Ready trait (from the Adventurer's Armory book) and putting one of your many skill points into a Craft or Profession that uses a sledge: it's normally treated as an improvised earthbreaker, but Rough and Ready removes the improvised penalty and grants you a +1 to attack rolls with it instead (a large sized sledge deals 3d6 damage).
Still, I agree that the lack of Strength bonus or extra Hit Points makes this archetype tricky, to say the least. A one level dip into Barbarian would be nice... but once you start down that path you start to think 'why not just be a Barbarian and call it a day'.
There's an inherent problem in designing a superhero-based archetype on a class that clearly isn't a superhero, but a mystery man. The Brute archetype is a failure at a task which is clearly impossible to succeed at, given the built in fences around class design.
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How about this for an attempt at a 'useful' Brute?..
Level: Vigilante (Brute) 1
Height: 6’2”/12’4”, Weight: 200/800 lbs, Eyes: steel grey, Skin: tanned, Hair: short black
Speed 30 feet
Base Attack Bonus +0/+1
CMB +4/+6, CMD 14/16
Save Vs: Fort +4, Ref +0, Will +1
Armour Class 10 = 10 + Dexterity +0, (Armour +3, Size -1, Brute -2)
Flat-footed 10, Touch 10
Hit Points: 11 [1d8 +2 Constitution +1 favoured class]
Attacks:
Unarmed Strike – Attack +4 [1d3/1d4+4 bludgeoning damage]
Large Sledge – Attack +5 [3d6+6 bludgeoning, critical x3]
Large Heavy Crossbow – Attack +0 [2d8 piercing, critical 19/20, range 120ft]
Abilities:
Str 18 [+4] Dex 10 [+0] Con 14 [+2] Int 7 [-2] Wis 12 [+1] Cha 12 [+1]
Racial Traits:
Medium
Normal Speed
Bonus Feat
Skilled
Traits:
Rough and Ready (Equipment): No Improvised penalties and +1 to attack with tools for trades he has at least a rank of Craft or Profession in
[Reserved for campaign trait]
Class Features:
Duel Identity (Chaotic Vigilante)
Brute Fortitude
Brute Form
Seamless Guise
Social Talent (renown)
Feats:
Simple Weapons Proficiency
Armour Proficiency (light)
Shield Proficiency
Improved Unarmed Strike (archetype bonus Feat)
Enforcer
Bludgeoner (human bonus Feat)
Skills:
Disguise +5 (= +1 rank +3 class +1 Cha)
Intimidate +5 (= +1 rank +3 class +1 Cha)
Perception +5 (= +1 rank +3 class +1 Wis)
Profession (construction worker) +5 (= +1 rank +3 class +1 Wis)
Stealth +4 (= +1 rank +3 class)
Languages:
Common
Possessions:
Large Explorer’s Outfit (free)
Large Sledge (2gp)
Large Parade Armour (50gp) (ACP -1)
Large Heavy Crossbow (100gp)
Large Crossbow bolts x10 (2gp)
Artisan’s Outfit (i.e. his civies) (1gp)
20gp
Between the Parade Armour and the size bonus in his Brute Form he should be rocking a +11 on most Intimidate checks, and with the Bludgeoner and Enforcer Feats any opponent he hits who doesn’t go down should be shaken for a good long time... plus he takes ‘em in alive and if (or rather when...) he starts to wail on his friends in combat, at least he can limit it to non-lethal damage until everything stops moving and he can calm down. Still squishy, to be honest, so he’ll need to use the ‘charge in and drop ‘em before they react’ method as much as possible. Later levels he’ll be looking at Power Attack, Toughness, and other key Feats for this sort of build.
Ac in brute form should be 7 correct? Also he should lose his Parade Armor every time he shifts right? Due to the shift destroying armor?
Edit: Ah you are assuming he is able to shift then don armor, my bad.
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Yep - the only way I see the Brute workable as a PC is if the 'forced to shift' thing is something they try to avoid, but they purposefully shift into Brute Form before heading off to fight crime / adventure / whatever. The two hour time limit and recovery is really nasty though...
