| 2 people marked this as FAQ candidate. 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I'm pretty sure that I'm not the only one that wants to build a Mystic Bolt focused Warlock now that the class has been made official but I am stuck on how to make the whole thing viable. It is great that the ability is unlimited but I feel that it is almost always better to cast a spell as things are now, and I was hoping to have more utility based spells backed up by a really powerful arsenal of mystic bolts.
This leads me to a question: What applies to these bolts? This passage is a pretty good explanation:
Abilities that affect all weapon attacks the Warlock makes, such as the arcane striker Warlock talent, function with Mystic Bolts
I can't think of many feats or spells that applies directly to the ALL weapon attacks one could make in a round. I guess that maybe the Startoss Style might work since the blasts are technically light weapons that you throw, but when it comes to magical items and spells I'm drawing a blank. Anyone else got any ideas?
|
Off the top of my head: Gloves of Deliquescence, Lethal Grace vigilante talent, Weapon Focus/Spec (if you qualify of course), Point Blank Shot, Precise Strike, Sneak Attack, Favored Enemy bonuses, etc.
A lot of good options for boosting your bolt damage come from class features you'd have to multiclass to get.
I don't have UI yet, but from what I know so far, Gloves of Arcane Striking should let you do a little "splash damage" when you use Arcane Strike with your Mystic Bolts.
Like Gisher, no book here yet so I'm going off what's posted.
Bracers of Falcon's Aim should get you a +1 competence bonus on ranged attacks.
I love this Archtype sooooo much.
The fact that a free hand can threaten with the Mystic Bolts is awesome.
Question I have, is the Str mod added to ranged attacks, or just Melee?
I believe the intent was no str mod at all for either. I'm taking this from a post Mark made as I don't have the book yet.
EDIT: here's the post I was thinking of.
| 2 people marked this as FAQ candidate. 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
I love this Archtype sooooo much.
The fact that a free hand can threaten with the Mystic Bolts is awesome.
Question I have, is the Str mod added to ranged attacks, or just Melee?
I believe the intent was no str mod at all for either. I'm taking this from a post Mark made as I don't have the book yet.
EDIT: here's the post I was thinking of.
I've since asked Logan and confirmed it (I was pretty sure because I saw his math before and it didn't include it). I know the FAQ button was broken for a while as well, which denied that thread some FAQ clicks. Perhaps we can have a few smaller FAQs to launch the UI FAQ page like we did for Occult, and include this one in there. Until then, since it's ambiguous, I'd recommend going with Logan's intent (particularly in PFS).
|
Looking at it, it makes sense because they are energy attacks. (It also says that some feats are excluded from use, using Power Attack as an example)
The damage does seem lackluster, 1d6 +1 for every four vigilante levels, though TWF with them looks to be cool.
I guess with the feats at normal levels and being able to use Vigilante talent Combat Skill to get the TWF feats, it might not be a bad build.
Looking at it, it makes sense because they are energy attacks. (It also says that some feats are excluded from use, using Power Attack as an example)
The damage does seem lackluster, 1d6 +1 for every four vigilante levels, though TWF with them looks to be cool.
I guess with the feats at normal levels and being able to use Vigilante talent Combat Skill to get the TWF feats, it might not be a bad build.
Only an Avenger can take Combat Skill so no dice there...
|
Why are you obviated from using power attack with mystic bolts?
I understand that power attack cannot be used on touch attack, but mystic bolts don't have to be touch attacks. At 3rd level one per round can be a touch attack and at 5th level all CAN be touch attacks, but they aren't required to be.
Or are we prevented from using power attack on mystic bolt for another reason that I missed in my perusing?
|
|
So, if Power Attack can't be used, what other feats are excluded from use. Is there a guideline with this, something along the lines of being an extension of Str damage or the like?
The OP asked what CAN be used...
Lets do a list of possibles... First, ones listed
- Arcane Strike
- Weapon Focus (Mystic Bolts)
- Two Weapon Fighting
So a guess for other feats that can be used.
- Weapon Finesse
- Improved TWF
- Precise Strike
- Point Blank Shot
- Critical Focus?
- Two Weapon Defense?
thoughts?
|
Power Attack can be used as long as it is not a touch attack. Same for Deadly Aim. The ability says it works for all effects that modify all weapon attacks (and not a singular weapon) as long as they don't specifically call out a case where they would not work (i.e. touch attacks and Power Attack) or a specific weapon or quality that a Mystic bolt does not count as or have. Abilities that would require the Warlock to be wielding the weapon (i.e. Two-Weapon Defense and Dazzling Display) do not appear to work.
Examples of feats that would work:
-Two-Weapon Fighting, Improved, Greater
-Arcane Strike
-Weapon Finesse
-Weapon Focus (Mystic Bolt)
-Improved Critical (Mystic Bolt)
-Critical Focus
-Power Attack (physical only)
-Deadly Aim (physical only)
-Rapid Shot
-Piranha Strike (physical only)
-Combat Reflexes
-Point-Blank Shot
-Precise Shot
|
|
Why are you obviated from using power attack with mystic bolts?
I understand that power attack cannot be used on touch attack, but mystic bolts don't have to be touch attacks. At 3rd level one per round can be a touch attack and at 5th level all CAN be touch attacks, but they aren't required to be.Or are we prevented from using power attack on mystic bolt for another reason that I missed in my perusing?
Maybe it is this phrase "Unless they are excluded from that feat" is meant to be a situational instead of a blanket "ban" type of thing. That is, whether or not the Character is using the feat in that round.
It can get a bit confusing...
I had, at first reading, looked at it as "well, of course you couldn't use Power Attack with Mystic Bolts, that would be ridiculous." when it used it as an example.
Point Blank and Precise Shot at 1st and 3rd, Weapon Finesse as the Human Bonus Feat, 2 Weapon Fighting at 5th (When all your bolts count as touch attacks). Arcane Strike from your 2nd level Talent, Tattoo Reservoir for the talent at 6th. Hold off on the 7th level feat until 8th so you can take Improved Two Weapon Fighting. Grab Deliquescent or Demonic Smith Gloves.
4 2D6+4 touch attacks is pretty decent, especially when you add spells in later. Tattoo Reservoir lets you use wands of useful spells with UMD while they're still in storage. Divine Favor Wand, Falcons Aspect Wand, etc. Go nuts.
You can't hold off on taking a feat; the closest you can do is retrain it.
You can't hold off on taking a feat; the closest you can do is retrain it.
Retraining or waiting till 9th it is
|
|
I've since asked Logan and confirmed it (I was pretty sure because I saw his math before and it didn't include it). I know the FAQ button was broken for a while as well, which denied that thread some FAQ clicks. Perhaps we can have a few smaller FAQs to launch the UI FAQ page like we did for Occult, and include this one in there. Until then, since it's ambiguous, I'd recommend going with Logan's intent (particularly in PFS).I love this Archtype sooooo much.
The fact that a free hand can threaten with the Mystic Bolts is awesome.
Question I have, is the Str mod added to ranged attacks, or just Melee?
I believe the intent was no str mod at all for either. I'm taking this from a post Mark made as I don't have the book yet.
EDIT: here's the post I was thinking of.
Good to know! I'd like to suggest allowing the non-touch attack Mystic Bolt option to allow for STR mod. It makes sense IMO if Power Attack is also usable on the non-touch attack option.
|
|
I was considering VMC Rogue and/or the spell Sense Vitals (gives up to 5d6 sneak attack, see Dirty Tactics Toolbox) and the Vigilante talents Cunning Feint/Surprising Stike. There is also the Ranged Feint feat in UI. Finally, get some two-weapon fighting to make alot of attacks.
Sense Vitals appears to require manufactured weapons, which I don't believe Mystic Bolts qualify as.
|
Attacking with mystic bolt takes the place of one of the warlock's normal attacks.Does this mean that if a Warlock has any natural attacks that each of them can be replaced with a Mystic Bolt attack? Or are Natural Attacks not considered "normal attacks"?
No. A Mystic Bolt is treated as a light weapon, not a natural attack. You cannot replace natural attacks with mystic bolts.
|
No. A Mystic Bolt is treated as a light weapon, not a natural attack. You cannot replace natural attacks with mystic bolts.Attacking with mystic bolt takes the place of one of the warlock's normal attacks.Does this mean that if a Warlock has any natural attacks that each of them can be replaced with a Mystic Bolt attack? Or are Natural Attacks not considered "normal attacks"?
The Mystic Bolt itself is a light weapon, so if you replaced a normal 1 handed weapon attack it would now be a light weapon attack. But that does not answer the replacement question itself. All the replacement text says is that it can replace a "normal attack". But i'm unclear on the definition of what a "normal attack" is.
--EDIT--
Doing a bit more digging on the Piazo Combat Page "Normal Attack" to me would seem to indicate anything that is part of the "Attack" sub-section of the "Standard Actions" section. Natural Attacks are included in this section.
The Mystic Bolt itself is a light weapon, so if you replaced a normal 1 handed weapon attack it would now be a light weapon attack. But that does not answer the replacement question itself. All the replacement text says is that it can replace a "normal attack". But i'm unclear on the definition of what a "normal attack" is.No. A Mystic Bolt is treated as a light weapon, not a natural attack. You cannot replace natural attacks with mystic bolts.Attacking with mystic bolt takes the place of one of the warlock's normal attacks.Does this mean that if a Warlock has any natural attacks that each of them can be replaced with a Mystic Bolt attack? Or are Natural Attacks not considered "normal attacks"?
A normal attack is one made using the basic rules for attack, an iterative attack based on your BAB. Natural weapon attacks aren't iterative attacks.
|
|
A normal attack is one made using the basic rules for attack, an iterative attack based on your BAB. Natural weapon attacks aren't iterative attacks.The Mystic Bolt itself is a light weapon, so if you replaced a normal 1 handed weapon attack it would now be a light weapon attack. But that does not answer the replacement question itself. All the replacement text says is that it can replace a "normal attack". But i'm unclear on the definition of what a "normal attack" is.No. A Mystic Bolt is treated as a light weapon, not a natural attack. You cannot replace natural attacks with mystic bolts.Attacking with mystic bolt takes the place of one of the warlock's normal attacks.Does this mean that if a Warlock has any natural attacks that each of them can be replaced with a Mystic Bolt attack? Or are Natural Attacks not considered "normal attacks"?
Doing a bit more digging on the Paizo Combat Page "Normal Attack" to me would seem to indicate anything that is part of the "Attack" sub-section of the "Standard Actions" section. Natural Attacks are included in this section.
I think it would be silly if it did work to replace Natural Attacks, but i'm just having a hard time at the moment finding a RAW definition for "normal attack".
QuidEst, do you have a link to where in the rules that your "Normal Attack" definition is defined?
Nope, I don't. Don't worry about it, though. If it's treated as a light weapon, then it can't replace natural attacks.
|
|
QuidEst, do you have a link to where in the rules that your "Normal Attack" definition is defined?Nope, I don't. Don't worry about it, though. If it's treated as a light weapon, then it can't replace natural attacks.
Why not? Natural Weapons are considered light weapons all the time. See Weapon Finesse for example.
|
|
Why not? Natural Weapons are considered light weapons all the time. See Weapon Finesse for example.QuidEst, do you have a link to where in the rules that your "Normal Attack" definition is defined?Nope, I don't. Don't worry about it, though. If it's treated as a light weapon, then it can't replace natural attacks.
All natural weapons are light but not all light weapons are natural.
|
|
All natural weapons are light but not all light weapons are natural.Why not? Natural Weapons are considered light weapons all the time. See Weapon Finesse for example.QuidEst, do you have a link to where in the rules that your "Normal Attack" definition is defined?Nope, I don't. Don't worry about it, though. If it's treated as a light weapon, then it can't replace natural attacks.
Right. So then why does the light weapon portion of the Mystic Bolts description keep getting pointed out? The only qualification for being able to replace an attack with a Mystic Bolt is that the attack is a "normal attack". Which we do not seem to have a clear RAW definition for.
Once an attack has successfully been converted then the light weapon portion of the text would apply to the attack since you are now using the Mystic Bolt, but it is the conversion part i am interested in. Not the post conversion part.
|
|
A mystic bolt is not a natural attack. You can't make natural attacks with light weapons that are not themselves natural attacks.
A Mystic Bolt is not an attack on it's own. You do not take an action to use Mystic Bolt directly. You take some sort of "normal attack" action and then replace the attacks with Mystic Bolts. So if Natural Attacks are "normal attacks" they should be able to be replaced by a Mystic Bolt.
My problem is the use of "normal attack" in the replacement section. Any "normal attack" can be replaced by a mystic bolt. Melee Attacks, Ranged Attacks, Unarmed Attacks, and Natural Attacks all fall under the Attack action. So that would seem to indicate that they are available for conversion into Mystic Bolts.
Unless there is a clear definition for "normal attack" somewhere that i am missing.
|
|
Here is something I've been looking at and rereading to make sure it works.
"warlock can sling projectiles of
magical energy at will by shooting a bolt or touching her foe."
Mystic bolt is treated "as though they were light one handed melee weapons." This is similar to unarmed strikes. It is there to clarify what feats and abilities will work with it.
With those bits of information, you should be able to add the damage from other melee touch spells to your Mystic Bolt melee attacks. So Chill Touch, Shocking Grasp, and Frost Bite should also add thier damage to your Mystic Bolt melee attack. This makes the Mystic Bolt a bit more useful. You can increase the damage or add fun effects like Bestow Curse, since you have to touch the target to deliver the Mystic Bolt damage.
Unless there is a clear definition for "normal attack" somewhere that i am missing.
There isn't, but natural attacks are clearly not normal attacks. They are primarily defined in the Universal Monster Rules section, and class progression charts show iterative BAB rather than just the highest BAB value used by natural attacks. Things that can replace natural attacks don't specify "normal attack", but rather just "attack".
|
|
Unless there is a clear definition for "normal attack" somewhere that i am missing.There isn't, but natural attacks are clearly not normal attacks. They are primarily defined in the Universal Monster Rules section, and class progression charts show iterative BAB rather than just the highest BAB value used by natural attacks. Things that can replace natural attacks don't specify "normal attack", but rather just "attack".
Natural Attacks are defined under the Attack section of the Combat page ( LINK) along with Melee Attacks and Ranged Attacks. That seems to be a pretty comprehensive page for what qualify as "Attacks". I assert that all of those attacks are also "Normal Attacks" as well.
Natural Attacks are defined under the Attack section of the Combat page ( LINK) along with Melee Attacks and Ranged Attacks. That seems to be a pretty comprehensive page for what qualify as "Attacks". I assert that all of those attacks are also "Normal Attacks" as well.Unless there is a clear definition for "normal attack" somewhere that i am missing.There isn't, but natural attacks are clearly not normal attacks. They are primarily defined in the Universal Monster Rules section, and class progression charts show iterative BAB rather than just the highest BAB value used by natural attacks. Things that can replace natural attacks don't specify "normal attack", but rather just "attack".
Okay. I mean, I'm reasonably confident that's not the intention or meaning, but it's just going to devolve into a RAW fight because the term isn't actually going to be defined anywhere.
|
|
Okay. I mean, I'm reasonably confident that's not the intention or meaning, but it's just going to devolve into a RAW fight because the term isn't actually going to be defined anywhere.Natural Attacks are defined under the Attack section of the Combat page ( LINK) along with Melee Attacks and Ranged Attacks. That seems to be a pretty comprehensive page for what qualify as "Attacks". I assert that all of those attacks are also "Normal Attacks" as well.Unless there is a clear definition for "normal attack" somewhere that i am missing.There isn't, but natural attacks are clearly not normal attacks. They are primarily defined in the Universal Monster Rules section, and class progression charts show iterative BAB rather than just the highest BAB value used by natural attacks. Things that can replace natural attacks don't specify "normal attack", but rather just "attack".
That's sort of the point of the Rules forum right? To have these discussions to hammer out RAW vs RAI for our games.
RAI i agree they make no sense. RAW i don't see a problem with them.
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Okay. I mean, I'm reasonably confident that's not the intention or meaning, but it's just going to devolve into a RAW fight because the term isn't actually going to be defined anywhere.Natural Attacks are defined under the Attack section of the Combat page ( LINK) along with Melee Attacks and Ranged Attacks. That seems to be a pretty comprehensive page for what qualify as "Attacks". I assert that all of those attacks are also "Normal Attacks" as well.Unless there is a clear definition for "normal attack" somewhere that i am missing.There isn't, but natural attacks are clearly not normal attacks. They are primarily defined in the Universal Monster Rules section, and class progression charts show iterative BAB rather than just the highest BAB value used by natural attacks. Things that can replace natural attacks don't specify "normal attack", but rather just "attack".That's sort of the point of the Rules forum right? To have these discussions to hammer out RAW vs RAI for our games.
RAI i agree they make no sense. RAW i don't see a problem with them.
I believe the intent was to have MB work similar to combat maneuvers. In that they can replace a normal attack. A situation could be that, during full attack action of melee attacks, you drop your foe. With your remaining attacks, you can attack another foe within 30ft. I believe that is why it is mentioned in conjuction with a full attack action.
|
|
Here is something I've been looking at and rereading to make sure it works.
"warlock can sling projectiles of
magical energy at will by shooting a bolt or touching her foe."Mystic bolt is treated "as though they were light one handed melee weapons." This is similar to unarmed strikes. It is there to clarify what feats and abilities will work with it.
With those bits of information, you should be able to add the damage from other melee touch spells to your Mystic Bolt melee attacks. So Chill Touch, Shocking Grasp, and Frost Bite should also add thier damage to your Mystic Bolt melee attack. This makes the Mystic Bolt a bit more useful. You can increase the damage or add fun effects like Bestow Curse, since you have to touch the target to deliver the Mystic Bolt damage.
I totally spaced out on this usage! Adding energy damage to spell touches is gonna be great!
|
|
I believe the intent was to have MB work similar to combat maneuvers. In that they can replace a normal attack. A situation could be that, during full attack action of melee attacks, you drop your foe. With your remaining attacks, you can attack another foe within 30ft. I believe that is why it is mentioned in conjuction with a full attack action.Okay. I mean, I'm reasonably confident that's not the intention or meaning, but it's just going to devolve into a RAW fight because the term isn't actually going to be defined anywhere.Natural Attacks are defined under the Attack section of the Combat page ( LINK) along with Melee Attacks and Ranged Attacks. That seems to be a pretty comprehensive page for what qualify as "Attacks". I assert that all of those attacks are also "Normal Attacks" as well.Unless there is a clear definition for "normal attack" somewhere that i am missing.There isn't, but natural attacks are clearly not normal attacks. They are primarily defined in the Universal Monster Rules section, and class progression charts show iterative BAB rather than just the highest BAB value used by natural attacks. Things that can replace natural attacks don't specify "normal attack", but rather just "attack".That's sort of the point of the Rules forum right? To have these discussions to hammer out RAW vs RAI for our games.
RAI i agree they make no sense. RAW i don't see a problem with them.
Combat Maneuvers replace "attacks" and Mystic Bolts replace "normal attacks". The question on the table still is if "normal attacks" are the same as "attacks" or if they're a subset.
|
|
Combat Maneuvers replace "attacks" and Mystic Bolts replace "normal attacks". The question on the table still is if "normal attacks" are the same as "attacks" or if they're a subset.I believe the intent was to have MB work similar to combat maneuvers. In that they can replace a normal attack. A situation could be that, during full attack action of melee attacks, you drop your foe. With your remaining attacks, you can attack another foe within 30ft. I believe that is why it is mentioned in conjuction with a full attack action.Okay. I mean, I'm reasonably confident that's not the intention or meaning, but it's just going to devolve into a RAW fight because the term isn't actually going to be defined anywhere.Natural Attacks are defined under the Attack section of the Combat page ( LINK) along with Melee Attacks and Ranged Attacks. That seems to be a pretty comprehensive page for what qualify as "Attacks". I assert that all of those attacks are also "Normal Attacks" as well.Unless there is a clear definition for "normal attack" somewhere that i am missing.There isn't, but natural attacks are clearly not normal attacks. They are primarily defined in the Universal Monster Rules section, and class progression charts show iterative BAB rather than just the highest BAB value used by natural attacks. Things that can replace natural attacks don't specify "normal attack", but rather just "attack".That's sort of the point of the Rules forum right? To have these discussions to hammer out RAW vs RAI for our games.
RAI i agree they make no sense. RAW i don't see a problem with them.
The only additional information, along that line, is in the description in Alchemical Dragon's Breath cartridges. I'm on my phone so can't easily put up a link to it, but it does mention the attack replacing the normal attack of the weapon.
|
|
From the Combat page again. This time from the Special Attacks section.
This section discusses all of the various standard maneuvers you can perform during combat other than normal attacks, casting spells, or using other class abilities. Some of these special attacks can be made as part of another action (such as an attack) or as an attack of opportunity.
Leads me again down the path of thinking that anything in the Attacks section is considered a "normal attack" as well.