I was looking at daring champion cavalier yesterday
Was only looking at up to level 7 - but the Order of the Eastern Star has potential, granting DR & save bonuses when you use combat expertise and negates the combat expertise penalty on some attacks. Seemed to be a good base for having high AC and defences despite only wearing light armour (say if you want to be running around a ship). Plus cool strong roleplay flavour about secretly hunting occult horrors & unimaginable threats from beyond.
Ironically it was for Skull & Shackles - the using idea of the banner abilities via the ship's colours appealed.
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Daring Champion is better on raw damage offensively (Challenge will do that), and has better Saves IMO (high Fort is better than high Ref on a Dex character, and Charmed Life is...situational). It also has Order bonuses, many of which are very nice.
On the other hand, Swashbucklers get Opportune Parry and Riposte, which is very cool. So there's that. They also get Weapon Training and what amounts to free Improved Critical and slightly more bonus Feats (one more, for most practical levels).
But Daring Champion does still get Dodging Panache which lets you stop full attacks from happening a lot of the time, and as stated, it's got Challenge.
So it sorta depends on what you want. I'd personally almost always go Daring Champion (and there's no reason not to if your GM ignores the errata that took Opportune Parry away from the Daring Champion), but if you really want to abuse the parry mechanic, there are ways.
It's also very possible that Ultimate Intrigue will make the Swashbuckler better, given that (from stuff people who have the book have said) an Archetype in there gives up Charmed Life for a scaling bonus against mind-effecting stuff. That might really help the Swashbuckler's main problem (Saves) enough to make it a better choice.
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I'd be interested to see that archetype. I have always loved the idea of a swashbuckler but found those saves for ostensibly a front-line class to be just too scary.
Which I why I would personally go for daring champion over swash although I admit I am as interested as the OP on advice with this since I am yet to actually play either.
Is there an Order that you like? If you can not find an Order that you want to rp, then I would go Swashbuckler.
How about dipping a level of swash to get Opportune Parry (and Derring-Do) and then going the rest in Daring Champion?
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I'd be interested to see that archetype. I have always loved the idea of a swashbuckler but found those saves for ostensibly a front-line class to be just too scary.
Yeah...the Saves are an issue that Charmed Life is not remotely sufficient to alleviate given the Swashbuckler's reliance on Immediate actions for other things.
Which I why I would personally go for daring champion over swash although I admit I am as interested as the OP on advice with this since I am yet to actually play either.
That'd be my inclination leaving aside the UI archetype in question, or assuming it's not great (I actually have no idea, it sounds like it might be a solution, but I'd need to look it over).
How about dipping a level of swash to get Opportune Parry (and Derring-Do) and then going the rest in Daring Champion?
This is potentially valid. It loses out a bit on the duplicated abilities (which are many) and the Cavalier level progression, but it works.
Me, unless there was a huge rush, I'd wait for Ultimate Intrigue before deciding. It's out in, what, 3 days? And then on d20PFSRD within a week or two?
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take away for a minute the Smite - how is the Cavalier better melee?
it seem exactly the same - a little lower :
less crit, no fighter only feats, no weapon training.
Without Challenge? You're absolutely right.
But that's an awfully big thing to leave out. At, say, 8th level, Challenge can be +3 to hit and +8 damage, just for example. That's a big bonus, and gets more significant as you level up.
also, halfling or 1/2 orc fix the saves with racial +2 (with a trait. )
Actually, Halflings can't use a Trait for the +2. And +1 or +2 to Saves is certainly helpful, but it's even more helpful if your Saves already don't suck.
lastly - the archtypes of swashbuckler seem decent like Mouser - adding cool funny combat and dirty tricks.
That's certainly true. Cool and funny are sadly not always the same as effective.
also, for adaring champion, i wonder if a Samurai is better than a cavalier.
team feat sharing fit the role - but resolve is potent...
I do not believe that you can apply Cavalier archetypes to the Samurai.
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halflings have +1 luck - add fate's favorite and it is now +2....
The Halfling save bonus is listed as a racial bonus, not a luck bonus, so Fate's Favored does not apply.
smite is great, but 1 foe a day ? we play long days mostly and Vs many foes - so it feels less potent .
It's one foe, but you get new Smites pretty regularly. 4/day by 10th level is once per fight in an average game.
Why isnt it also Effective? losing the parry is a big pay, indeed .... but...
The Saves being bad really hurts. More if you have long games, since charmed Life becomes less useful (being a limited use power). It's probably better on offense if you're doing 6 fights a day, but the worse saves hurt (admittedly less with race-based Save bonuses).
But like I said, Ultimate Intrigue might well have an Archetype that fixes that issue, and is out super soon, so I'd be inclined to wait if it were me.
halflings have +1 luck - add fate's favorite and it is now +2....The Halfling save bonus is listed as a racial bonus, not a luck bonus, so Fate's Favored does not apply.
They can exchange it for Adaptable Luck which does grant a Luck bonus three times a day.
Challenge ends up being more raw damage, though if you add-up all the smaller benefits of Swashbuckler - Weapon Training + Gloves of Dueling + Weapon Specialization - and then put it in the context of characters that already add level to damage, it's not all that different. If the Daring Champion doesn't use an Order with a solid attack bonus (like Dragon), it's arguably weaker on offense - by level 9 it's 4 points of attack behind, and only a few points of damage ahead.
As far as multiclassing goes, dropping levels of Daring Champion loses uses/day of Challenge and delays things like Greater Tactician, so it's kind of painful. Swashbuckler is very dip-friendly, and can be used to do powerful things like Sacred Fist 4/ Swashbuckler X where you end up with Crusader's Flurry and swift-action +3 Divine Favor crossed with Weapon Training and Precise Strike.
Swashbuckler has major swift-action congestion problems, so menacing swordplay is actually kind of awful. Precise Strike will do its normal bonus unless you attack with an offhand; using TWF to gain an offhand dagger attack and then giving it up for Duelist parry means you aren't making an offhand attack.
If you want Monk-style flurry, I'd seriously look at 4 levels of Sacred Fist of Sarenrae with Crusader's Flurry. You can then use Dervish Dance for easy dex-to-damage scimitar that works with all Swashbuckler features, so you don't have to use a crappy Agile sai. A little wisdom AC works just fine for a dex-based character. For that matter, charisma isn't nearly as important as it seems for a Swashbuckler - Charmed Life has massive action problems, and 8 CHA plus one Extra Panache is the same as 16 CHA for Panache use.
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This is gonna seem counterintuitive at first, but hear me out.
Dwarf
Daring Champion
Favored Class bonus: +1/2 to damage vs target of your challenge
Trait: Warrior of Old
Feat: Steel Soul
Between Precise Strike and Challenge you're adding damage equal to 2 1/2 times your level on damage. And you have a +5 to nearly all saves before factoring in stats or bonuses from class.
The fighter - is using a buckler for shield slam, buckler are allowed.
Making any kind of "off-hand" attack with Two-Weapon Fighting cancels Precise Strike. The Two-Weapon Fighting rules say: "If you wield a second weapon in your off hand, you can get one extra attack per round with that weapon." You can't say "a kick or buckler bash counts as an attack with my other hand for Two-Weapon Fighting, but doesn't count as an attack with my other hand for Precise Strike".
The sohei will flurry with a momk, light piercing weapon.
The problem with flurrying a light piercing Monk weapon with one level of Sohei is that 1)you can't get easy dex-to-damage with it, and 2)light piercing Monk weapons are crap for damage and panache criticals. By level 9, a Sohei 1/ Swashbuckler 8 can have +3 to attack and damage from Weapon Training and +8 precision damage, and a weapon that has a 19-20 critical. A Sacred Fist of Sarenrae 4/ Swashbuckler 5 can have +3 to attack and damage from Weapon Training, +3 to attack and damage from Divine Favor, +5 precision damage, and a weapon that has 15-20 critical - and the weapon can also have another +1 enhancement since it doesn't need Agile.
This is gonna seem counterintuitive at first, but hear me out.
Dwarf
Daring Champion
Favored Class bonus: +1/2 to damage vs target of your challenge
Trait: Warrior of Old
Feat: Steel Soul
Between Precise Strike and Challenge you're adding damage equal to 2 1/2 times your level on damage. And you have a +5 to nearly all saves before factoring in stats or bonuses from class.
5 to saves is a lot.
But the abilites are horrible. Minus charisma , no dex
No dex is a bit of a pain, though the bonuses to con and wis help a bit in point buy by freeing up more points to put into dex. The cha penalty only hurts dodging panache, superior feint, targeted strike, and dizzying defense. You still have a minimum of 1 panache and that's all that's needed to use precise strike, swashbuckler initiative, and subtle blade. A 1 level dip into gunslinger gets you a wis-based grit pool added to you panache pool if you really need to use those deeds.
If going for a Sacred Fist 4/ Swashbuckler X, I'd use something like:
Human: 10STR, 16/18+DEX, 14CON, 10INT, 14+WIS, 10CHA
Traits: Fate's Favored, Magical Knack: Sacred Fist
1SB. (+Finesse) / Extra Panache / +Weapon Focus: Scimitar
2SF.
3SF. Dervish Dance
4SF.
5SF. Crusader's Flurry: Scimitar
Or if you wanted to do something a little more unique...
Dual Talent Human or Garuda-Blooded Aasimar: 10STR, 16/18+DEX, 15CON, 10INT, 14/16+WIS, 8CHA
Traits: Fate's Favored, Magical Knack: Sacred Fist
1SB. (+Finesse) / +Weapon Focus: Scimitar
2SF.
3SF. Dervish Dance
4SF.
5SF. Crusader's Flurry: Scimitar
6SB.
7SB. Extra Panache
8SB. +Weapon Specialization: Scimitar
9SB. (+Improved Critical) / Elemental Fist
10SB.
11SB. Shaitan Style
12SB. +Shaitan Skin (6/day EF)
13SB. Advanced Weapon Training: Abundant Tactics: Elemental Fist (10/day EF)
You can use Elemental Fist through a weapon strike, so you can use Shaitan Skin to inflict stagger with a high DC reflex save as part of a sword attack many times a day (plus it adds some acid damage).
There have been other things that my group has basically decided that 'The errata IS the error" to before.On the other hand, Swashbucklers get Opportune Parry and Riposte, which is very cool.Or you ignore the errata :p
I definitely understand WHY Paizo removed OP+R from everyone other than the Swashbuckler; the DC did literally everything you wanted from the Swashbuckler and then some. The Swashbuckler needed some sort of vague niche, and Paizo decided that would be the ability to parry attacks.
Problem is that being able to parry does nothing to fix the Swash's inability to defend against non-AC attacks, and so the class continues to suffer.
The Swashbuckler designer seems particularly unwilling to listen to feedback, compared to the rest of the design team.
But putting that aside for a moment...
You're probably better off taking 1~3 levels of SB and thrn going Urban Barbarian the rest of way. SBs are a pretty crappy class and not very good at swashbucklering. Mostly because so much feedback was blatantly ignored.
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The Swashbuckler designer seems particularly unwilling to listen to feedback, compared to the rest of the design team.
But putting that aside for a moment...
You're probably better off taking 1~3 levels of SB and thrn going Urban Barbarian the rest of way. SBs are a pretty crappy class and not very good at swashbucklering. Mostly because so much feedback was blatantly ignored.
I don't think that's necessarily fair to the designer. Who, for the record, also designed Investigator and responded perfectly well to complaints on that.
I agree that there was a clear failure to listen to critiques when doing the final version of the Swashbuckler, but I would say there's little evidence that it was any particular person's fault.
I mean, we know nothing of the internal stuff at Paizo, he might've easily been overruled, or there was some sort of error sometime in there, or a host of other things.
Lack of ki pool until level 7 almost makes you want to take 7 levels of sacred fist in that build.
I think a build with unchained monk 3/cleric (crusader) 1/Swashbuckler x might be better. You don't get fervor casting of divine favor, but you get ki pool with that build and a flurry that doesn't give -2 to hit.
Sacred Fist 4 is exactly enough to get +3 Divine Favor with Fervor casting, Crusader's Flurry, and 1 bonus AC, without losing more than 1 BAB. Going for a ki pool loses more BAB and Precise Strike damage, and badly delays Weapon Training, free Improved Critical and bonus feats. And then even when you get ki, using it runs into swift-action problems anyhow.
UMonk/ Cleric/ Swashbuckler can work, but it's rather messy; SF4 is extremely efficient in every way. If going Umonk/Cleric I probably wouldn't involve Swashbuckler at all.
The Swashbuckler designer seems particularly unwilling to listen to feedback, compared to the rest of the design team.
But putting that aside for a moment...
You're probably better off taking 1~3 levels of SB and thrn going Urban Barbarian the rest of way. SBs are a pretty crappy class and not very good at swashbucklering. Mostly because so much feedback was blatantly ignored.
I don't think that's necessarily fair to the designer. Who, for the record, also designed Investigator and responded perfectly well to complaints on that.
I agree that there was a clear failure to listen to critiques when doing the final version of the Swashbuckler, but I would say there's little evidence that it was any particular person's fault.
I mean, we know nothing of the internal stuff at Paizo, he might've easily been overruled, or there was some sort of error sometime in there, or a host of other things.
My impression is based on two playtests I followed that he was in charge... But I'll give him the benefit of doubt.
It's using magical knack, which increases caster level by 2, if you are going to get a good boost from that trait, most people auto assume it.
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Having fished around in the Ultimate Intrigue thread, I now think you should grab the Noble Fencer Archetype and go Swashbuckler when it come out.
It loses Dodging Panache and some Deeds nobody cares about for social stuff, and loses Charmed Life for a +1 to saves against mind effecting stuff at 2nd, and then +1 more every 4 levels.
So, like Bravery, only actually good.
That makes them have one point less than a Good Will Save for most purposes, which is enough of a boost to Saves to make them workable IMO.
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Sounds like one can use that, spend a feat an d a background to boost Fort saves, and make a character that doesn't need to worry about choosing between using the class features of the swashbuckler that turn or actually having a second turn.
I expect that archetype to be banned in PFS/severely nerfed in errata since it makes everything else look bad by actually being useful.
I doubt it. It provides a much smaller and more specific save bonus than baseline Swashbuckler has when actually using Charmed Life with high Charisma. It's miles better, but not in a flashy way or one that makes people feel bad.
Invulnerable Rager is still around, and this is less overtly better than the base class than that is.
The noble fencer looks like a strong archetype (not in the sense of stupid good but prolly an upgrade to the base Swash). It also stacks with a number of other Archetypes: Corsair, Mouser, Mysterious Stranger and most notably Inspired Blade so I'm pretty sure something good can be made of it especially if you consider all the weapon training related goodies from weapon master's handbook.
Edit: Scratch that part about AWT looks like you're not elegible.
The noble fencer looks like a strong archetype (not in the sense of stupid good but prolly an upgrade to the base Swash). It also stacks with a number of other Archetypes: Corsair, Mouser, Mysterious Stranger and most notably Inspired Blade so I'm pretty sure something good can be made of it especially if you consider all the weapon training related goodies from weapon master's handbook.
How do you get Fighter Weapon Training as a Swashbuckler?
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Yeah...the Saves are an issue that Charmed Life is not remotely sufficient to alleviate given the Swashbuckler's reliance on Immediate actions for other things.
I think it'd be okay if they could use Charmed Life at will. That way they could use it against everything instead of saving it for the nasty stuff, but they'd be sacrificing their next round's swift action for it.
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I think it'd be okay if they could use Charmed Life at will. That way they could use it against everything instead of saving it for the nasty stuff, but they'd be sacrificing their next round's swift action for it.
Yeah...the Saves are an issue that Charmed Life is not remotely sufficient to alleviate given the Swashbuckler's reliance on Immediate actions for other things.
That'd still be once a round max and keep you from using the riposte portion of Opportune Parry and Riposte (ie: your defining class feature). I'm not sure that helps nearly enough. The problem isn't really running out (though that's adding insult to injury given Paladin), it's the Immediate Action thing.
My actual House Rule solution is this. Which I think works pretty well without being overpowered.
That said, Noble Fencer seems like it'll be an official version that's actually workable, which is good.
Worth mentioning that the Noble Fencer's bonus will stack with Steadfast Personality, unlike Charmed Life. An NF Swashbuckler should actually be pretty difficult to dominate.