Is coup de grace....

[DmRrostarr]

I can't find anything searching the message boards but is coup de grace a "death attack" under the glossary explanations?

Specifically from the PRD:
"In most cases, a death attack allows the victim a Fortitude save to avoid the effect, but if the save fails, the creature takes a large amount of damage, which might cause it to die instantly.
• Death attacks slay instantly. A victim cannot be made stable and thereby kept alive.
• In case it matters, a dead character, no matter how he died, has hit points equal to or less than his negative Constitution score.

It seems to fit the criteria, but under coup de grace it says nothing that it is.

[Joey Cote]

From Core Rulebook - combat section

Coup de Grace: As a full-round action, you can use a melee weapon to deliver a coup de grace (pronounced "coo day grahs") to a helpless opponent. You can also use a bow or crossbow, provided you are adjacent to the target.

You automatically hit and score a critical hit. If the defender survives the damage, he must make a Fortitude save (DC 10 + damage dealt) or die. A rogue also gets her extra sneak attack damage against a helpless opponent when delivering a coup de grace.

So, yes, by the rules of Death Attack in glossary, coup de grace is a death attack as, regardless of the damage that the critical causes, if the target fails the Fort save, they die.

[OldSkoolRPG]

DmRrostarr wrote:

I can't find anything searching the message boards but is coup de grace a "death attack" under the glossary explanations?

Specifically from the PRD:
"In most cases, a death attack allows the victim a Fortitude save to avoid the effect, but if the save fails, the creature takes a large amount of damage, which might cause it to die instantly.
• Death attacks slay instantly. A victim cannot be made stable and thereby kept alive.
• In case it matters, a dead character, no matter how he died, has hit points equal to or less than his negative Constitution score.

It seems to fit the criteria, but under coup de grace it says nothing that it is.

No, it is not. First, as you point out coup de grace does not say it is a death attack. Second, a coup de grace deals a large amount of damage and then a Fortitude save not to die even if you survive the damage not the other way around like a death attack.

[Dave Justus]

I looked into this once and concluded that only things that specifically say they are a death attack are death attacks.

[wraithstrike]

No. It is not a death attack.

[voideternal]

Is it just me or are Death Attacks referenced extremely rarely in the core rulebooks? The only hits I'm seeing are Assassins, Master Spies, Level 19 Gunslingers and Swashbucklers, Level 20 Life Shamans, favored class options of Samsarans, and the item Assassin's Dagger.

I didn't even know it was a thing.

[Ascalaphus]

Most death attacks are spells with the [death] descriptor, and monsters with abilities that say "this is a death effect".

The idea is that a death attack is something that (supernaturally) directly kills you very very dead. So dead that it's actually harder to return you to life.

While a Coup de Grace has the potential to immediately kill you, it lacks the supernatural baggage to make it harder to revive you; it's not a death effect.

[voideternal]

Is there a difference between a Death Attack and a Death Effect?

Assassins, Master Spies, Gunslingers, Swashbucklers do Death Attacks(Ex).
Spells with the [death] descriptor and some monster abilities apply Death Effects.

According to the glossary page, Death Ward protects against Death Attacks.
According to the spell description, Death Ward protects against Death Effects.
Are they the same thing?

[Raynulf]

Technically, coup de grace is not a death effect per RAW, as it does not state it is within the description of the action.

Personally, one of my standard house rules is to remove the save-or-die component from it. Mainly so I don't have to have freedom of movement on every BBEG I make to avoid the cheap-shot of heightened hold person/monster + CDG. Automatic critical for a full round action? Sure. Unbeatable Fort save or die in round 1? No thanks.

[Ascalaphus]

voideternal wrote:

Is there a difference between a Death Attack and a Death Effect?

I don't believe there's a difference. You might say that a death attack is an attack that is a death effect.

The word "effect" is used all over the place, but isn't strictly defined. You'll have to use context to figure out the local meaning, but it tends to be a sort of super-category that'll fit anything, used when they don't want to restrict themselves to only applying a rule to only feats, spells or something like that.

[Ascalaphus]

Anyway, here's a simple test for determining if something is a death effect/attack:

* If the ability says it's a death attack/effect, then it is.
* If the spell (or other thing) has the [death] descriptor, it's a death attack/effect.
* In all other cases, it's not a death attack/effect.

[kinevon]

Raynulf wrote:

Technically, coup de grace is not a death effect per RAW, as it does not state it is within the description of the action.

Personally, one of my standard house rules is to remove the save-or-die component from it. Mainly so I don't have to have freedom of movement on every BBEG I make to avoid the cheap-shot of heightened hold person/monster + CDG. Automatic critical for a full round action? Sure. Unbeatable Fort save or die in round 1? No thanks.

Yeah, and then you get the Halfling Tetori Monk grappling the Huge Ancient Dragon...

There are plenty of stupid "Let's end this encounter before the BBEG acts!" type abilities and spells.
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