Trouble in Thistletop (DM advice?)

[FrugalToast]

TL;DR: My group almost came to a TPK on Monday, with one character escaping alive by the skin of her teeth, literally at 0 hp. I feel like I made a fight they couldn't win, and for that reason I kind of want to retcon back to when the tide turned against them, but at the same time that feels cheap, and they may well have deserved it. What do?

During our run of the Glassworks/Catacombs of Wrath sequence, Tsuto successfully kidnapped Ameiko. After clearing out the Catacombs, my group hired a boat to take them to Thistletop. Within the Thistle Tunnels they were overwhelmed, and when everything was looking grim, the sorcerer successfully bluffed Gogmurt into thinking they were reinforcements requested by Nualia. So Gogmurt led them to Ripnugget's throne room, where the bluff quickly fell apart, and battle erupted, this time ending in defeat.

My thought was that Nualia would want to keep them alive for any information they had, before offering them all on a pyre in the courtyard. Unfortunately for her, Tsuto was suspecting that she was going to offer up Ameiko with the party, and engineered an escape plan for them to save his sister. After being stripped of their items, they were thrown in the jail, which was already occupied by a sick Daviren Hosk (long story...) and Ameiko. That night, Tsuto gave the party a key to the jail cells and collapsed a portion of the throne room before making an independent escape, and in the ensuing chaos, the party escaped with Orik as a hostage, cutting the rope bridge behind them.

After gaining knowledge of the complex from Orik, the party came back the next evening, with a boat and a grappling hook, choosing to enter through the tentamort cave. Quickly defeating Lyrie, we ended a session at the secret door to the second lower level, with the complex unaware of the party's presence.

Next session is where I feel like we really went off-track. I thought they would go down the secret stairs they had just found and kick Nualia's ass at full resources. Instead, the party thought it was vitally important that they get back their cold iron weapons, which were stored in the goblin armory, adjunct to the king's throne room, despite the fact they had already bought replacement normal weapons while they were in town.

The plan became this; the halfling would disguise herself as a goblin, and go to Ripnugget, claiming that it was Bruthazmus who had orchestrated the recent pickle theft. Ripnugget would then be taken downstairs and fight Bruthazmus in anger of the theft, then the party would kill whoever was left standing.

Well, as Ripnugget and Bruthazmus came face to face, the halfling backed out of the situation. So when Bruthazmus demanded to see who had accused him, they quickly found the accuser missing. It took all of two moments for a nearby door to be opened, revealing the party squished into the short hall leading into the jail, face-to-face with Ripnugget.

Without time to really plan any of this out, I had the wives scatter to begin alerting the complex. After the party's last attempt, I thought that Nualia would be willing to oversee this matter herself, without thinking of the CR of the encounter. This all culminated with Bruthazmus and 2 goblin commandos in the jail; 2 yeth hounds, 2 wives, Nualia, and Ripnugget at the entrance to the Lamashtu temple; and the party between them on the altar. Everyone was taken to negatives, except the halfling, who went to 0, and played dead.

At the last moment, as everyone was bound to the pyre, a harrow card given to the party by Mvashti slipped from the halfling's pocket, blinding her captors. She slipped her bonds and escaped through the tentamort cave, back to the party's boat. As she sailed away, she could see the plume of smoke rising over the goblin fort, illuminated by flames in the courtyard.

Currently, my plan is to run the raid on Sandpoint next week, with a new party. Malfeshnekor will attack with a Fiendish Nualia, Ripnugget, Bruthazmus, and a contingent of goblins. If the new party wins, we continue the campaign as written.

Or, if they lose, describe to them the destruction of the town, and how they somehow continue to see after their deaths. Sandpoint becomes a ghost town, days, weeks, months pass, when they notice that the northern sky is growing dark. The perspective shifts, they're flying at a ridiculous speed north, over the Storval Plateau, and into the Kodar Mountains. Suddenly, a flash of light shines down from one of the tallest peaks, and the whole mountainside begins to shake, and Mhar awakens, ending the world and turning everything in sight to blackness. But after what feels like an eternity, a small light comes into view. A butterfly, made of stars. It looks tiny at first, but as it flies towards them, it grows larger and larger, until the light surrounds them on all sides. They find themselves back in the shrine under Thistletop, but this time we run the encounter more "as written," with Nualia preferring to stay in the basement and let the goblins do her dirty work.

Does that sound like too much of an ass-pull? I have everyone's characters, I have the exact battle state when things turned sour, and I think if Nualia hadn't been there, it wouldn't have been a loss.

OMG I wrote a novel. ;_;

[Tangent101]

One PC escaped, right? At 0 hit points, but she's alive and out of there.

Have her run into a new adventuring party outside of Thistletop and convince them to help. You have the new party (replacement PCs) and can continue the adventure as it was written.

[Wheldrake]

Anytime players are killed in action, you can use the DM hand of fate to save their sorry ases - if that fits the story you're trying to tell.

- Our female paladin "died" in Thistletop, but I ruled that Nualia stabilized her, imprisoned her, and turned her from her holy path, indoctrinating her as a servant of Lamashtu. The player had to roll up a replacement character, who conveniently died during the adventure in which the party faced Nualia in new digs, and vanquished all resistance, rescuing and subsequently de-programming the fallen paladin. One atonement later... good to go! Great fun!

- Supposedly dead players might find themselves stabilized, but mistaken for dead and left to rot or thrown on a midden heap.

- Or they might find themselves rescued by divine agency and given a quest by some angelic being.

- 0r they all just die, permanently, since their bodies are disposed of and all, but replacement PCs are quested with finishing the job the previous group botched so badly. All that's left is contriving the Deus-ex-machina method of communicating their quest to them.

- Or they die, the BBEG realized his wicked plan, the world ends and you hang up that campaign for good, maybe even switching DMs.

- Or what the OP suggested. Why not? Anything for a good story and fun RP experiences.

[Stebehil]

Another thing to consider: what do the players think about the situation? Do they think they brought doom upon themselves, or do they claim they went against impossible odds (basically, it it their or the DMs fault). Do they want to keep their old characters, or start over with new ones? Ask them about it.

In general, I would avoid more heavy-handed approaches to such a situation. If the halfling manages to start a rescueing mission with new PCs (be they temporary or permanent replacements), this would be a situation where the players have an influence on the outcome. This is what the game is all about - PCs (and players) making a difference in the world. A deus ex machina solution, overwriting part of the story, is normally less satisfactorily for the players, as they have no hand in it. The PCs are not only a passive part of a story, they form it at least partially.

[Latrecis]

I agree with Stebehil - what do the players want? how are they thinking about what's next? Do they care? Are they upset? Are they more committed to dealing with Nualia then before? Are they frustrated since they've failed (been captured) by Nualia and crew twice now?

Admitting I don't have that context, staging a full on raid from a transformed Nualia and released Malfeshnekor still seems punitive to me. A story advancement appropriate for pc negligence or outright incompetence. Though I suppose, they were captured twice...

I'd also point out that, as far as I know there is no RAW way for Nualia to free Malfeshnekor at this time. She lacks the ability to disrupt the binding that holds him in his room. The AP also implies her transition to fiendish will be driven by sacrificing Sandpoint not freeing Malfeshnekor. Lastly the AP provides no specific timeline or event sequence that leads to the raid - "if <this> doesn't happen by such-n-such, a raid happens" So there's no explicit "they failed to take Thistletop twice, next up is a raid."

If your players are sick of Thistletop yet want to continue, the OP's approach - raid on Sandpoint - might be a good way to go. But it might be simpler to let a new group of pc's try again. It's also not required that the original pc's were actually burned in a pyre. The smoke the halfling saw could have been from anything, including Nualia burning Ripnugget or Gogmurt for failing to stop the pc's and falling for their tricks.

I get the basic principle of "there is no more narrative slack (example: Tsuto protecting Ameiko) to justify freeing the pc's." But an avenue for the players to free their old pc's for themselves using new pc's might work. Especially if any of them were attached to their original characters.

I don't know how to think about the retconning idea - I've never done it to such an extent before. (At most I've moved back a round when we found something "impossible" happened. If the players are really interested in those pc's and feel they were completely jobbed by the GM, it might work. But it's the most extreme from of GM intervention and pretty much eliminates any concept of consequences to pc choices from the game.

[Stebehil]

Latrecis wrote:

But it's the most extreme from of GM intervention and pretty much eliminates any concept of consequences to pc choices from the game.

DM/divine intervention bears the danger that the PCs become the passive subject of a story told by the DM, and not adventurers playing a decisive part in the story.

I´d only go down that road if I as a DM really borked the game and the players are very unhappy with the outcome of my decision. If the PCs had it coming (say, acting so stupid that PC death is inevitable, like jumping off a 1000 ft. cliff), then there is no need to retcon anything.

If you as a DM blatantly misjudged and led the PCs into their doom without their knowing and without any chance of their part to correct that (like, having a Balrog appear as an enemy for a 1st level party), then you might want to rectify that. But again, that decision should not be solely the DMs.

[CorvusMask]

From what I heard, Burnt Offerings ritual works like this:

Nualia gained demonic body part by burning his father's bones. If she frees Malfeshnekor, she will become half-fiend. If she then burns Sandpoint, she will ascend into full demon.

On "how Nualia frees Malfeshnekor"... Well, judging from war room, she is clearly planning the main raid to happen in few weeks. She did hire Lyrie to help with ritual and she gets visions from Lamashtu guiding her on how to free Malfeshnekor. Basically, she will somehow do it in few weeks worth of time xD

[Tinalles]

The following is long. I've split it up into chunks and spoilered it.

General thoughts on the OP's predicament:

I think the basic problem you're struggling with is that you don't want the story to end prematurely. If you kill off the PCs, it does -- as long as you're committed to following the AP as written.

Things already sound like they're pretty much off the rails. But that's okay; it shows that your players have been acting in interesting, dynamic ways. Your group -- players and GM alike -- are reshaping the written story to make it their own.

I advise against a deus-ex-machina solution. "Doing a reset" like this cheapens the choices of the PCs. Besides, you don't need that yet. One of the PCs lived, and that means that one PC has the opportunity to flee, rally support, and keep the story alive.

If one of the PCs explicitly prays for divine aid, consider providing it. Perhaps a helpful archon/azata/etc pops up at a key moment, or a mortally wounded PC gains DR 5/epic and the ability to act while in negatives just long enough to turn the tide (after which they should fall unconscious again). Divine aid should be rare, focused, short duration, and aimed to maximize dramatic effect.

What I would do about the captured PCs:

Nualia's goal is to free Malfeshnekor, thereby fully purging her celestial "taint", and releasing a powerful servant of Lamashtu into the world again.

The adventure is not clear about exactly what she needs to do in order to accomplish his release. He's restrained by a Binding spell at CL 20; generally, it takes either an anti-magic field (Sor/Wiz level 6, min CL 13), or a Mage's Disjunction (Sor/Wiz level 9, min CL 17) to take one of those down. As a level 4 cleric with two levels of fighter, Nualia simply doesn't have the magical oomph (or monetary resources) to deal with that directly herself.

I suggest, therefore, that she's using an occult ritual whose purpose is not to dispel or remove the binding, but to change its target. Thus:

=====================
Twisting the Bars
School abjuration; Level 6
Casting Time 6 hours
Components V, S, M (a tiny gold cage worth 100 gp per HD of target), SC (min 4, max 20)
Skill Checks Knowledge (planes or religion) DC 25, 3 successes
Range touch
Target one creature previously targeted by a binding (hedged prison) spell
Duration instantaneous
Saving Throw none; SR no
Backlash The primary caster takes 1d6 points of damage per HD of the target creature and is exhausted. The damage may be split amongst secondary casters.
Failure The caster takes 1 permanent negative level.

Effect
This ritual frees the target of a binding (hedged prison) spell by substituting a new creature for the original target. The new creature must have at least as many hit dice as the original target; or, if such a creature is not available, the primary caster may designate a group of creatures whose combined hit dice equal or exceed those of the original target.

Upon successful completion of the ritual, the original target of the binding (hedged prison) spell is freed, and the new creature takes its place in the prison.
=====================

Nualia has learned this ritual, and trained a cadre of 20 secondary casters (mostly goblins) to assist in it. All she has needed are suitable prisoners. She was reluctant to use goblins, because it would have taken quite a few of them to come up with an equivalent to Malfeshnekor's 10 hit dice, and that might have disrupted her somewhat tenuous alliance with the tribes.

The captive PCs are exactly what she needs, and she wastes no time in putting her plan into motion. The very next day after capturing the PCs, she conducts the ritual, and it's a success! With the following results:

- Nualia gains the fiendish template;
- Malfeshnekor is free for the raid on Sandpoint;
- Your former PCs are now trapped in Malfeshnekor's prison.

Since Nualia is a devoted follower of Lamashtu, she is cruel. She would very likely mutilate them in painful, humiliating ways. Then, having used them to free her ally, she would abandon them alive in the deeps of Thistletop with plenty of water and no food, trusting that as they slowly starve to death, they will descend into insanity and cannibalism. She sees this as a fitting offering to the Mother of Madness.

Of course, this also means that they are alive, and can be rescued. It may be somewhat tricky for the PCs to do so, but they could always use the same ritual that Nualia did (it's not inherently evil; arrange for them to find notes on how to do it in her room in Thistletop). Perhaps Nualia and some of her minions could wind up in Malfeshnekor's binding. I leave the moral quandaries of leaving Nualia bound in Malfeshnekor's prison to you. She does have to eat, after all, so just leaving her there is a slow death sentence. Some of the good-aligned deities might balk at that, particularly Desna; others might be okay with it provided Nualia (and any others) are mercifully executed after the ritual is complete. Some of the more lawful ones would prefer a formal trial and sentencing first.

Alternatively, the PCs could buy a scroll of Anti-Magic Field in Magnimar. Cast it from the scroll, the bound PCs walk out of the prison; when the AMF wears off, the Binding spell snaps back into place, and they are still the targets. But because they are now outside the bounds, its effect is that they are incapable of ever entering that room again.

It's somewhat pricey for a low-level party at 1,650 gp, but if the alternative is being stuck in Thistletop for the rest of their lives, it's well worth it.

What I would do about the raid:

Let the players whose PCs were captured roll up new PCs who -- by a great stroke of fortune! -- happen to be passing through Sandpoint when your second raid hits.

Give them -- say -- 3 days to prepare. On Day 1, Nualia is busy casting Twist the Bars. On Day 2, she and her minions are recovering from the ritual, and possibly doing terrible things to the captured PCs for giggles. On Day 3, Nualia, Malfeshnekor, and Ripnugget have to martial their disorderly goblins into a horde and travel to Sandpoint. They attack on Day 4, before dawn and under cover of dark so that the goblins can benefit from Darkvision while their human targets are blinded. Perhaps it's a full moon so your normal-sighted PCs are not totally screwed, and anyone with low-light vision can function normally.

Attackers

In terms of tactics, goblins are sneaky. It should not be a charge-in-head-first-yodeling-war-cries type raid. I would divide them into three groups:

Group 1: A general raiding party of goblins, led by Bruthazmus. These would sneak in first, under cover of darkness, through the dump, and aim to create as much chaos as possible as fast as possible. Set buildings on fire, hurl thunderstones through windows to flush civilians into the streets, kill people messily and painfully to sow terror. However, they are primarily a distraction.

Group 2: A group of goblin commandos led Chief Ripnugget. They enter over the wall behind the cathedral (Stickfoot can just climb over it, allowing Ripnugget to haul ropes over for the others.) Their goal is to kill known town leaders. In order, their targets are Father Zantus, Sheriff Hemlock, and Mayor Deverin. Zantus is first because he has magic, especially group healing, and because he is old he is a weaker target. Hemlock next because he leads the soldiers. Mayor Deverin last, because killing her would essentially throw the town into political chaos even if the goblins are forced to retreat, making the town a weaker target for future attacks. If they get an opportunity, they'll try to free Orik and order him to assist them with the slaughter, or kill him if he won't cooperate.

Group 3: The big one. This is composed of Nualia, Malfeshnekor, Gogmurt, and two goblin commandos. They are concealed in the woods outside the north gate, under cover of an Invisibility Sphere provided by Malfeshnekor. When Group 1 starts, they spend a few rounds buffing: Malfeshnekor casts Mass Bull's Strength and Mass Enlarge on everyone (he can't enlarge himself, not being a humanoid). Nualia does her normal buffs as per her stat block, but skips Bull's Strength since Malfeshnekor is doing that. She has Silence in that slot instead to deal with enemy casters. Gogmurt has finally gotten some rest, freeing up a second level spell slot for Barkskin. He buffs himself with Barkskin, Flame Blade, and has 2xFaerie Fire prepped instead of Charm Animal and Speak with Animals.

After buffing, Malfeshnekor uses Dimension Door to put them right inside the gates. Their first goal is to kill any defenders on the wall and open the gates, to secure an easy route of retreat if it should be needed. After that, they intend to meet up with the others -- first Group 2, then Group 1 -- in order to provide direction for the remainder of the raid. Their primary goal is to destroy Sandpoint by killing as many of its people as possible. However, Nualia is a servant of Xanesha, and knows that her mistress has plans for greedy souls. If they get an opportunity, they'll take some live prisoners to be marked with the Sihedron and sacrificed for the greed in their souls.

Defenders

Preparations

Allow the PCs to make knowledge or intelligence checks to identify likely avenues of approach (the junkyard because goblins like junk, the wall in the cathedral because they evidently came that way once before, perhaps the unguarded bridges by the mill). Then give them time to come up with defenses. Alarms, whether magical or mundane; traps; sentries at key spots; requisitioning better equipment for the guards; arming commoners with clubs or daggers, and maybe crossbows for a few. Sandpoint is large -- they may need horses or some other method of getting from one spot to another fast.

Creativity is good. When my PCs defended Sandpoint against the stone giants, the party bard asked if she could play the bells in the cathedral to Inspire Courage across the whole town, and I said yes because that was cool. The result was a pretty embarrassing death for Longtooth.

Defenders

I do not think that a TPK at this stage is very likely. There are lots of goblins, and Nualia and Malfeshnekor are extremely dangerous. However, since the fight is happening in Sandpoint, there are lots of people available to help. It's a lot harder to wipe out a whole town than it is to crush a party of four or five adventurers unsupported in the midst of a hostile dungeon.

Ameiko: can use Inspire Courage and provide minor healing.

Shalelu: can provide ranged support.

Father Zantus: can provide healing if the party saves him from Ripnugget. Give him the Selective Channeling feat so he can heal everyone in an area but exclude Nualia and company. He likely has some lower level acolytes (adepts and level 1 clerics) who can also assist in this way.

Belor Hemlock: can provide a fair number of guards, and is a pretty respectable combatant himself. Have him coordinate closely with the PCs during the preparations stage.

Orik: I'm not entirely clear on how well your party is getting along with Orik. If he is cooperative, they could use him as a source of information about likely tactics by Nualia et al. But honestly, at this point they probably know everything he has to tell them on that score. The more interesting potential arises if he has decided that he needs to undo his former errors -- or at least save his skin from prosecution -- he might be enlisted as a defender. But if he learns that the party killed Lyrie, I suspect that would likely drive him fully into the arms of evil. There is much potential for dramatic switching of sides here.

Last, but definitely not least, there are the players. This is a prime opportunity for your players to try out some new PCs. Perhaps some of them will prefer to keep the new PCs after the dust has settled. Or perhaps they will prefer to resume playing their original PCs (in which case, the ones they use for this raid could reasonably become "backup characters" in case somebody dies further down the line).

Either way, they get to keep playing, and the story goes on.

[CorvusMask]

Why do people want to give Nualia fiendish template? <_< as written, second/third part of the ritual makes character into half-fiend...

[Stebehil]

Tinalles wrote:

The following is long. I've split it up into chunks and spoilered it.

Wow. I´d love to play at your table after reading this. These ideas can turn a really bad situation into an epic battle.

And the story of the dragon is great as well.

[Tinalles]

Thanks! ^_^ I'm pretty pleased with the scenario. I hope it helps out the OP.

[Arcasus]

I made the mistake of using too many side quest and story for the first part of this adventure path . Rise of the rune lords quickly became rise of the feud between Desna and lamastu followers.

[Garde Manger Guy]

Barghests love to consume corpses. The fresher the better. Even though Malfeshnekor is a greater barghest, he still hasn't eaten in a very long time. It would be well within Nualia's character to say and do this.

Nualia wrote:

"What just happened here? The mighty heroes of Sandpoint thought they could just stroll into our complex and defeat us? We all see how that went. Useless scum! Let us not let them off so easily by burning them now! When I free Malfeshnekor, his first meal shall be the flesh of these so called heroes and everyone here can witness their destruction!"

The party is then stabilized and thrown into the dungeon until Nualia can open up the prison which takes... however many days (less than a week though) you need until a "rescue party" can come get them. Several NPC's in town have enough levels to mount a commando style raid with the sole intent of rescuing the PC's. I would let the party members run them so they have something to do during this time. It would also give the PC's a chance to learn the abilities/ increase the levels of the NPC's for the giant raid down the road.

This part is NSFW. It will contain thoughts and magic items that are mature and disturbing in nature. Parental discretion is advised.

bad stuff:

The Demon mothers mask in Inner Sea Gods would allow Nualia to mate with Malfeshnekor. This would be a release of sorts and one that fits in with Lamashtu's guiding principles. If Nualia found this mask on the altar with the key, its purpose would be crystal clear.

Malfeshnekor is released by this act and immediately leaves to recruit the Goblin horde. Nualia leaves to have a child that would appear later in the adventure but not before telling Ripnugget to "Finish my light work" in true Evil overlord style.

The "rescue party" would have a much easier go of it in this case, and the PC's (who still need to recover after their ordeal) would be ready to deal with Malfeshnekor's raid in about a month give or take.