Homebrew Rogue with casting

[Foxy Quickpaw]

I like to play characters that have a lot of skills. One of the best for that would be the rogue. I also like the idea of the rogue, but as stated at many occasions the rogue is only good for the first few levels.

If you really optimize for a TWF build the rogue can be made viable for a few more levels but overall the power level of the rogue is low compared to most of the other classes.

I thought about how to simulate a rogue using other classes, like trapper ranger, or investigator or some alchemist archetypes. But all of that is suboptimal too, because you get features, that don't fit a rogue well.

So after trying some ideas to improve it for a homebrew I thought it would be nice to add a little magic to the rogue. As the power level of the rogue is considered low and almost all d8 classes get casting why not add it to the rogue too?

So the actual question is:

Considering a CRB Rogue with additional
- spontaneous casting based on INT
- the spells known progression of the Bard
- and the spell list of the Magus

Would that be about the same power level as the other d8 classes like Inquisitor or Alchemist? Or would it be overpowered?

[BadBird]

You're actually very close to describing the Arcane Scoundrel Rogue Archetype.

Also, if you want a character close to a Rogue in theme, consider a Ranger with three archetypes: Guide, Skirmisher and Urban Ranger. Guide removes favored enemy for a great x/day power, Skirmisher replaces spells with a long list of some really great skill tricks and combat tricks, and Urban Ranger further replaces the nature theme with an urban theme - it even gets trapfinding if I remember right.

[My Self]

The Eldritch Scoundrel is an unusually weak 2/3 caster. You actually don't start getting real class features until 3rd level, when you get your first Sneak Attack. Rogue isn't built to be a caster, and practically none of the class features have synergy. The Eldritch Scoundrel introduces a ki pool conversion rate, but the rest of the Rogue is nerfed too much for it to be powerful in, say, a low-level game. A CRB Rogue with spontaneous INT casting, Bard spells known, and Magus spells would be a strange beast, although ultimately it would probably be weaker than the Magus, but stronger than the Ninja.

Personally, I wouldn't mind an Unchained Rogue with 4-level casting+cantrips, with Invisibility (and Vanish), True Strike, Obscuring Mist, Grease, Charm Person, Disguise/Alter Self, Expeditious Retreat, See Invisibility, Knock, Find Traps, and other Wizard goodies on the 1st level list.

[Foxy Quickpaw]

BadBird wrote:

You're actually very close to describing the Arcane Scoundrel Rogue Archetype.

Thanks to you two for pointing me to the Eldritch Scoundrel. I didn't know that one yet. But as it replaces things instead of adding, it doesn't really help making a rogue more powerful. Just as My Self said.

[Marc Radle]

Foxy Quickpaw wrote:

I like to play characters that have a lot of skills. One of the best for that would be the rogue. I also like the idea of the rogue, but as stated at many occasions the rogue is only good for the first few levels.

If you really optimize for a TWF build the rogue can be made viable for a few more levels but overall the power level of the rogue is low compared to most of the other classes.

I thought about how to simulate a rogue using other classes, like trapper ranger, or investigator or some alchemist archetypes. But all of that is suboptimal too, because you get features, that don't fit a rogue well.

So after trying some ideas to improve it for a homebrew I thought it would be nice to add a little magic to the rogue. As the power level of the rogue is considered low and almost all d8 classes get casting why not add it to the rogue too?

So the actual question is:

Considering a CRB Rogue with additional
- spontaneous casting based on INT
- the spells known progression of the Bard
- and the spell list of the Magus

Would that be about the same power level as the other d8 classes like Inquisitor or Alchemist? Or would it be overpowered?

Have you taken a look at the Trickster?

[BadBird]

It's always possible to multiclass a Rogue to improve the overall picture, since Rogue levels aren't all that crucial. A few levels of things like Weapon Master Fighter (with Gloves of Dueling), Urban Barbarian (with a little Extra Rage) or Warpriest (With Magical Knack and Fate's Favored) can add a lot to offense.

There's also more unusual options, like four levels of Druid with Shaping Focus to turn into an elemental all day and wield a weapon (just drop it when shaping). A Druid 4/ Unchained Rogue 4+ could turn into a medium air elemental, take Finesse Training with unarmed strike and the Fencing Grace feat, and then use rapier and unarmed strike TWF with the +4DEX and height advantage of the air elemental form, essentially living as a humanoid air elemental that looks vaguely like them and can speak.

[Kaisoku]

My Self wrote:

Personally, I wouldn't mind an Unchained Rogue with 4-level casting+cantrips, with Invisibility (and Vanish), True Strike, Obscuring Mist, Grease, Charm Person, Disguise/Alter Self, Expeditious Retreat, See Invisibility, Knock, Find Traps, and other Wizard goodies on the 1st level list.

3.5e D&D's Assassin had a good 4 level spell list:

1st Level: disguise self, detect poison, feather fall, ghost sound, jump, obscuring mist, sleep, true strike.
2nd Level: alter self, cat’s grace, darkness, fox’s cunning, illusory script, invisibility, pass without trace, spider climb, undetectable alignment.
3rd Level: deep slumber, deeper darkness, false life, magic circle against good, misdirection, nondetection.
4th Level: clairaudience/clairvoyance, dimension door, freedom of movement, glibness, greater invisibility, locate creature, modify memory, poison.

Then slap on the ranger/paladin 4-level spells per day.

You could probably slap that onto the Unchained Rogue without causing it to be overpowered.
I'd even go with allowing the rogue to take the ranger's Skirmisher archetype to swap out spellcasting (using Int, and removing the couple animal companion and favored tricks).
Ooh, or the Trapper archetype too.. since it still could fit the class theme.

While I was at it, I'd also update the Finesse Training to something that included a ranged combat option. The option to pick Weapon Finesse or Point Blank Shot at 1st level, and adding the option of choosing a ranged weapon to add Dex to damage with at later levels, plus increasing Sneak Attack range to the first increment.
Gives the option of being either melee or ranged rogue.

I'd also probably change it to adding Dex to damage on top of your Strength. Precision damage (so not multiplied on a crit), and capped at your Rogue level (so gained at 1st level, allowing one extra weapon overall as well).
It's a nice addition that bumps up damage and allows super Dex focused characters a way to shine, but doesn't replace Strength based rogues outright.

[My Self]

I was thinking the altered Rogue would get spells equivalent to the 2nd-5th level spells of a 6-level caster. (as well as the 1st level spells and cantrips). They get the increase in spell level at the same levels, however they have fewer spells to play around with and spells are a secondary attraction instead of half the class. They would have fairly powerful spells, but be limited in their uses. Although I can see spell list stealing problems arising from this...

[hiiamtom]

Unchained rogue is still pretty far behind something like Ranger. Even giving it 6th level casting, alchemy, or full BAB and 4th level spells wouldn't come close to breaking the game.

I personally like the idea of giving a rogue a spellbook and prepared casting, school specialization (probably with forced opposition like sin magic), access the wizard spell list, and some way to give arcane discoveries. I would absolutely let someone do that with a rogue and no other change to the class.

[Foxy Quickpaw]

Thank you for telling your opinions to my question.

@Marc Radle
Nice suggestion, but I'd like to stay with elements from Paizo sources. I might even consider it, but as I cant't find it on the internet. And buying it just to see if I like the idea?

@hiiamtom
With the prepared casting, I could just slap on the Magus' spellcasting. But I like the spontaneous spellcasting more, as I need far too long to decide which spells to prepare each morning. Thank you for giving your assesment on the power level

That I'm not a big fan of simulating a rogue with other classes, I already wrote in the starting post.