It has cropped up on a few threads over the last year and I was interested in what a typical range of these four key measures would be across a range of levels: 1, 5, 10, 15. My thought was to look at ...
1. Spell/Ability Save DC. (witch hexes, highest level spell, stunning fist etc.)
2. To hit bonus with main weapon at highest iterative attack.
3. AC against normal attacks
4. Save bonus with primary save
For simplicity lets avoid limited class abilities for a small number of uses per day or that only effect certain creatures like smite or favoured enemy
So the goal would be something akin to Table: Monster Statistics by CR?
Also somewhat relevant here's a spreadsheet compiling monster stat averages Sheet
I have seen (15 + level) used as a minimum for melee AC, with (20 + level) being seen as tank/good melee AC mentioned quite a bit.
That seems to hold true. At level 15 a CR 15 foe has on average a +25 to hit.
20+15 = 35 = 45% miss chance
15+15 = 30 = 20% miss chance
Which is fairly decent against primary attacks.
So the goal would be something akin to Table: Monster Statistics by CR?
Also somewhat relevant here's a spreadsheet compiling monster stat averages Sheet
Absolutely. Thats the aim but for PCs!
Covent sounds promising. What about the upper end? Is a range of five or six reasonable.
Level 1: 16-21
Level 5: 20-25
Levek 10: 25-30
Level 15: 30-35
Effectively I'm saying a level 1 character with AC 22+ is going to be considered optimised. At typical CR1 Gnoll with +3 to hit is going to need a 19 to 20 to hit. Which seems very good at 1st level. Should it be lower - around the 19 to 20 mark?
As for level 10, a fire giant with +21 is going to be hitting on a 4. Though power attack may well raise this figure. That is is on its highest attack though. A multi-attack creature like a young red dragon with +17 is hitting on a 8+.
What are your thoughts?
I would agree if we needed to either be that accurate or specific. But we are looking at general principal. I believe it is useful to say for example at level 5 a general martial character will struggle if their AC isn't in the 20 to 25 range and if a character has AC of 26+ the DM may need to take this into account when designing and presenting encounters.
I am interested in those figures. I think temporary or circumstantial bonuses
Kid favoured enemy, spell effects, penalty for being underwater etc etc are best left out are just too complicated. So let's move past them and see if there is some useful nuggets to be gleaned.
Or we can just continues the endless wrangling about optimisation and "how can I get my AC to 30 at first level" threads.
I agree with a lot of your points bob regarding spells but including them creates so many permutations that the task becomes impossible. Instead it is easier that all characters have access to spells and buff whether from allies or their own spells and just concentrate on the underlying effects.
I really don't have an agenda or argument to make in this fight. The idea of the thread was as an aid for DMs when considering encounters. I have my own opinions on Optimisation and what a DM should or shouldn't do, but turning this into 'that' thread will derail it completely,
I'm really interested to know what people consider to be reasonable highest spell DCs. These probably arent subject to spells to such a large extent. How good a DC do you need to not be considered underpowered?
At 1st level, presuming a base optimized spellcaster (20 casting stat), DC 16 is going to be the bar. If you tack on some Spell Focus feats or some optional traits, you can see them as high as 17-18. Some not-so-optimized spellcasters, or hybrids, will have DC of 14, increasing similarly to the prior if they take those options.
The highest average saving throw at 1st level will be 7, and that would be either Reflex or Will; Fort Saves won't be nearly that high unless it's a high-con creature. On average, presuming maybe +2's in each, you're looking at 2-4. Therefore, on average, a SoS spell at DC 16 will work less than half the time on a full save-optimized humanoid, and against those who don't maximize those statistics, will be ~60%. With hybrids, you usually don't take spells with Save DCs, so I'm going to leave them out of this discussion.
By 5th level, the save DCs will be as high as 19 for a 3rd level spell, where creatures will have an at-best +10 to their saving throw.
At 10th level, you should be able to afford a +6 Headband, and have an extra +2 to your casting stat via levels, as well as be able to cast 5th level spells. This means the DC will be, on average, a DC 24. Most creatures will have some Cloaks of Resistance, increased natural statistics, and should have ~+16 to their saves.
At 15th level, your Spell DCs only increase based off of any feats/options you take, and the spell levels you cast. I mean, you could have a +1 Inherent Bonus on top of your level up, so let's count it, resulting in a DC 28. Creatures will have +20 or more to their saves easily.
By max level, your increases are marginal at best (DC 31), and their saves are still exponentially higher (+25 easily).
Let's not even count Spell Resistance, which most creatures usually have 11 + HD, and all you get is your Caster Level + any feats or racial benefits.
Needless to say, those options which increase your Save DCs are going to keep your Save/Suck spells relevant throughout the game, and not having them can really screw you over, since their saves will eventually outscale your DCs normally.
It's interesting. There seems to be the greatest increase between 5th and 10th as the stat points increase through items on top of those gained at level 8.
20 caster stat seems the top end of what you would normally get but as you say there is spell focus etc. Would a reasonable range therefore look like this?
Level 1: 14 - 16
Level 5: 17 - 19
Level 10: 20 - 24
Level 15: 24 - 28
Looking through some sample CR 10 foes, fire giant, gug, young red dragon it seems there is a wide range of saves. Best saves seem to be around the +13-14 range while the others are around +6 to +11. It is clear that DCS even a little higher above these figures are auto success if you pick weak saves - which I would assume you do.
any other thoughts on spell DCS?
It's interesting. There seems to be the greatest increase between 5th and 10th as the stat points increase through items on top of those gained at level 8.
20 caster stat seems the top end of what you would normally get but as you say there is spell focus etc. Would a reasonable range therefore look like this?
Level 1: 14 - 16
Level 5: 17 - 19
Level 10: 20 - 24
Level 15: 24 - 28Looking through some sample CR 10 foes, fire giant, gug, young red dragon it seems there is a wide range of saves. Best saves seem to be around the +13-14 range while the others are around +6 to +11. It is clear that DCS even a little higher above these figures are auto success if you pick weak saves - which I would assume you do.
any other thoughts on spell DCS?
Those would be about average. Feats and Racial Options may increase those amounts further, and if you are going to optimize them, they would be absolutely required if you want any impact on creatures with all-strong saves. (They do exist, trust me.)
Spell DCs may not be as important for spells that still have some pretty mean effects, even on a successful saving throw. They are usually higher-level spells, though. There's also metamagic feats that require an affected creature to make the saving throw twice, so as to cut down on getting screwed over via bad rolls (or "good" rolls, technically speaking).
It's also a little difficult to determine what saves each creature is gonna have unless you either roll a Nat 20 on the Knowledge Check, or have the creature type and/or entry memorized, so you'll be hardpressed to know that he'll have a +12 on his Will Save (meaning targeting that is stupid), but only a +6 on his Reflex (meaning targeting that is smart).
I think that is where pathfinder has grown. There are now many more alternate ways of raising key powers to the required level. It gives us a lot of flexibility to achieve the same aim or allows us to stack to optimized levels.
What about PC saves. What should players have to keep them alive. I seem to come across players regularly that only fail on 1-3's on the dice. How easy is it to get super-saves? What is the minimum you need not to be a magnet for every negative status in the land?
I think that is where pathfinder has grown. There are now many more alternate ways of raising key powers to the required level. It gives us a lot of flexibility to achieve the same aim or allows us to stack to optimized levels.
What about PC saves. What should players have to keep them alive. I seem to come across players regularly that only fail on 1-3's on the dice. How easy is it to get super-saves? What is the minimum you need not to be a magnet for every negative status in the land?
Some PCs optimize for higher saves, others just don't and hope they don't get hit with anything, or just simply don't need good saving throws for whatever comes at them.
There are 3 basic ways to increase Saves. The first is to select classes with good saves in certain aspects. The most common ones you want to have good are Will, and Fortitude, as these ones usually beat your face in. There are some Reflex ones as well, but that's usually in relation to damage. The second is to not dump and/or optimize the relevant attributes. Fortitude is Constitution, Reflex is Dexterity, Will is Wisdom. Having high attributes in these will constitute in having some really strong saving throws in that department (this means if you're running a lower point buy, these values will be lower, whereas a higher point buy will be higher). The last are items. The most common item is a Cloak of Resistance +5. Some other items also provide boosts to saves (Luckstone, for example), as well as certain buff spells.
Players can take feats like Iron Will, Great Fortitude, Lightning Reflexes, etc. to shore up any poor saving throws they have. The ability to roll twice, or re-roll in general, can provide a great benefit to the PC in question, especially if their saving throws are high, therefore reducing the chances of getting screwed by a bad roll. Racial Options, like Sacred Tattoo from Half-Orc, also work to increase saves.
Let's take a standard character like the Ranger. They have good Reflex and Fortitude saves. A Ranger is going to want to have a decent Constitution, and depending on the build (going TWF or Archer-based), are going to have a good Dexterity to boot. Rangers also require Wisdom for their spellcasting (14 usually), so those saves are going to be a little higher than someone who doesn't dump them. This Ranger, if decently optimized, will have approximately 3-4 Fort, 4-5 Reflex, and 1-2 Will at 1st level. Considering it's well-rounded, it's pretty good.
Now, let's say he's a Half-Orc with the Witchguard Archetype, and he took the Sacred Tattoo racial trait, and the Fate's Favored character trait (and the Magical Knack trait, just for fun). Straight off the gate, these two options make all of his saves 2 higher than normal (and also practically negate the need for a Luckstone item), meaning his 3-4/4-5/1-2 saving throw range, is now 5-6/6-7/3-4. That's a major boost at first level, and it will stay relevant in the higher levels because his saving throws, both good and bad, will scale with items, feat choices, and buff spells.
As an aside, with the Witchguard archetype, he can select a Witch Patron and gain those bonus spells as spells known to cast. This means he can select either the Devotion or Strength Patron, and cast Divine Favor, providing a +2 to attack and damage at 4th level, scaling to +4 by 10th level.
Also consider that not all characters will need good saves. Paladins, for example, can dump a lot of save-related statistics because of their class features providing bonuses from another source (Charisma) and possessing a multitude of immunities (Disease/Poison covers about 80% of Fortitude Saves, Fear/Mind-affecting effects cover about 90% of Will Saves).