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It gains the benefits listed; 2 skill ranks per (master's, as per the intro on familiar archetypes that explain what "level" means) level. It would still add its Int bonus to the ranks it got from its creature HD, but not from the special sage ranks.
Mark, are you saying the familiar gets skills ranks from animal HD as well?
Say a Fox, a 1 HD animal. Animals have (2+Int)(Min 1) skills/HD. A normal fox has 2 Int, so it's 1 skill/HD, which it spent on Perception.
But a level 5 Sage familiar has 10 int, for 2 skills/HD. Does the familiar get another skill point? And another at 7th level?
I assume the "Use master's character level for effects related to Hit Dice" won't get any more racial skills. But a couple of extra skill points wouldn't hurt.
It's not a slam dunk that it does (I can see the ambiguity where you could read the ability as replacing those as well), but I would personally allow it, with the math working just as you said for a small number of extra points.
Wow, I did not expect a follow up to my question but those extra skill points from the familiars ever growing intelligence is extremely handy nonetheless.
I think that the familiar will get more skill points then that. Because of
"Hit Dice: For the purpose of effects related to number of Hit Dice, use the master's character level or the familiar's normal HD total, whichever is higher."
Skill points are based on hit dice. You use the highest of your and your familiars.
So i would say a familiar gets (2+2+int)*Level.
So i would say a familiar gets (2+2+int)*Level.
I don't think that's true.
Familiars don't normally get skill points from level increases, they get to use their master's skill ranks. And, in addition, they have a few skill ranks to begin with (on account of being animals with HD, and thus skill points, before becoming familiars) .
Sage familiars get 2 skill points per from level increases. And they have a few skill ranks to begin with. That's it.
If sage familiars got (2+2+Int mod) per level, as you suggest, one would expect a normal familiar to gain (Masters skill ranks+2+Int mod) per level. But we know they don't.
If sage familiars got (2+2+Int mod) per level, as you suggest, one would expect a normal familiar to gain (Masters skill ranks+2+Int mod) per level. But we know they don't.
Skills: For each skill in which either the master or the familiar has ranks, use either the normal skill ranks for an animal of that type or the master's skill ranks, whichever is better.
This ability expressly states that, in the case of skills, the familiar has his own skill ranks, but simply uses whichever is higher between him and his master. A cat familiar is likely to benefit from his master's Knowledge (Arcana) ranks, but the inherent Acrobatics and Stealth for being a cat are, more likely than not, all the cat's.
Now, the Sage archetype replaces this ability to share skills with his master with "2 skill points a level". It doesn't expressly do anything about the animal's base form, so those 'racial' skills also still exist. The "normal skill ranks for an animal" seem to be the 2+INT*level animals get, and this archetype doesn't replace that part.
If sage familiars got (2+2+Int mod) per level, as you suggest, one would expect a normal familiar to gain (Masters skill ranks+2+Int mod) per level. But we know they don't.Skills: For each skill in which either the master or the familiar has ranks, use either the normal skill ranks for an animal of that type or the master's skill ranks, whichever is better.This ability expressly states that, in the case of skills, the familiar has his own skill ranks, but simply uses whichever is higher between him and his master. A cat familiar is likely to benefit from his master's Knowledge (Arcana) ranks, but the inherent Acrobatics and Stealth for being a cat are, more likely than not, all the cat's.
Now, the Sage archetype replaces this ability to share skills with his master with "2 skill points a level". It doesn't expressly do anything about the animal's base form, so those 'racial' skills also still exist. The "normal skill ranks for an animal" seem to be the 2+INT*level animals get, and this archetype doesn't replace that part.
So a familiar, not just the sage, gains own skill points whenever its master levels up?
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So a familiar, not just the sage, gains own skill points whenever its master levels up?If sage familiars got (2+2+Int mod) per level, as you suggest, one would expect a normal familiar to gain (Masters skill ranks+2+Int mod) per level. But we know they don't.Skills: For each skill in which either the master or the familiar has ranks, use either the normal skill ranks for an animal of that type or the master's skill ranks, whichever is better.This ability expressly states that, in the case of skills, the familiar has his own skill ranks, but simply uses whichever is higher between him and his master. A cat familiar is likely to benefit from his master's Knowledge (Arcana) ranks, but the inherent Acrobatics and Stealth for being a cat are, more likely than not, all the cat's.
Now, the Sage archetype replaces this ability to share skills with his master with "2 skill points a level". It doesn't expressly do anything about the animal's base form, so those 'racial' skills also still exist. The "normal skill ranks for an animal" seem to be the 2+INT*level animals get, and this archetype doesn't replace that part.
A VERY important thing to note... a familiars HD does not increase. So it does not gain any of the normal bonuses for a higher HD.
To put it simply, things that target the familiar see the masters HD. Everything else sees its original HD.
"Hit Dice: For the purpose of effects related to number of Hit Dice, use the master's character level or the familiar's normal HD total, whichever is higher."
So, no, familiars never gain their own skill points unless they have an ability like the sage archetype.
The Familiar isn't gaining HD so it doesn't get more skills. The line that says use the Masters HD when you need the HD of the famliar is for things like sleep that only work on 4 HD. Since the creature isn't gaining actual HD it doesn't gain any skills, since those are dependent on Actual HD.
The Familiar isn't gaining HD so it doesn't get more skills. The line that says use the Masters HD when you need the HD of the famliar is for things like sleep that only work on 4 HD. Since the creature isn't gaining actual HD it doesn't gain any skills, since those are dependent on Actual HD.
Exactly my point.
A familiar has some skill points to begin with. Upon becoming a familiar, it gains the ability to use its master's skill points. Since it doesn’t actually increase HD, this is all it gets.
A sage familiar has some skill points to begin with. It gains 2 skill points when its master gains a level. Nothing else.
One could argue that the familiar, Sage or otherwise, also gains a skill point whenever their INT reaches 10 and every even value thereafter. Times their base form's hit dice, in case of Improved Familiars whose bases possess more than one.
But definitely not a bunch of skill points every time their master levels.
In all honestly, unless you're aiming at a particular familiar build, Sage is worst.
You only get 2 Skill Points. You can't increase them, you don't share with master.
Just 2. I guess maybe if you want an:
UMD familiar with 1 Evolution Point UMD for +8, you could roll this, avoiding your Wizard taking UMD, but that's about it, Sage Familiar is just worst.
While the sage only gets 2 ranks per level, it also gets half its level to knowledge checks and can try those untrained. This gives the sage a lot of pseudo-ranks in those skills.
While the sage only gets 2 ranks per level, it also gets half its level to knowledge checks and can try those untrained. This gives the sage a lot of pseudo-ranks in those skills.
By level 10 a Wizard gives his Familiar 10 Skill ranks.
Any decent Wizard will have at least 4 Knowledges Maxed.A Sage will have +5 and maybe +2 INT, still not better than +10 Ranks +0 INT.
The sage archetype isn't really meant for wizards. It's more for fighter types.
But consider the flip side. What skills are your wizard granting his familiar that aren't mostly redundant for the familiar to have? So, what is your character losing by not granting the ranks to his familiar?
The sage archetype isn't really meant for wizards. It's more for fighter types.
But consider the flip side. What skills are your wizard granting his familiar that aren't mostly redundant for the familiar to have? So, what is your character losing by not granting the ranks to his familiar?
Well, usually a Reroll is worth at least 2 feats (Iron will chain), so depends on the DC.
At level 10 you'll have 10+8 int, on maxed knowledges.Maybe a not so maxed one might be worth a re roll? You can always get a 1-5 and fail to get info.
Though this will derail on why the Wizard didn't cast divination spells to know what he was going to fight
Of course, the Sage has every knowledge as a class skill and 2 skill points per level. So, dip a rank in every knowledge to have all 10 trained by level 5. At level 10 that Sage will have 9+2 int on its check, which is still a bit of a reroll if that's what you're down for. But it will also have that on every other skill too. And an extra 10 skill points at level 10 that can be stacked into a single knowledge or branched out into other skills.
But seriously, consider all of the skills your wizard is granting his familiar that the familiar will never actually use/need.
While the sage only gets 2 ranks per level, it also gets half its level to knowledge checks and can try those untrained. This gives the sage a lot of pseudo-ranks in those skills.
By level 10 a Wizard gives his Familiar 10 Skill ranks.
Any decent Wizard will have at least 4 Knowledges Maxed.
A Sage will have +5 and maybe +2 INT, still not better than +10 Ranks +0 INT.
+5 from 1/2 level +2 Int +1 from 1 rank and +3 from class skill is +11 at level 10 (slightly better than +10 +0 Int +0 from not a class skill) and only costs 1 of the sage's ranks. A sage is definitely at its best when the character is a sorcerer or similar character with lower skill ranks, not because it can't keep up with the Knowledge skills of a wizard's familiar (it can) but because a wizard has so many ranks and high Int already that the wizard doesn't really need a buddy to help with Knowledge that much, plus the wizard might be able to lend a non-sage skills like Stealth if she has enough ranks to max it.
Not all classes that get a familiar have tons of skills.
Eldritch guardian fighter, place your skill(s) where you want and let your familiar place skills in knowledge to do knowledge for you while your skill(s) go into perception and whatnot.
... plus the wizard might be able to lend a non-sage skills like Stealth if she has enough ranks to max it.
Maybe useful at low levels, but stealth is obsoleted by spells way faster than knowledge is.
One could argue that the familiar, Sage or otherwise, also gains a skill point whenever their INT reaches 10 and every even value thereafter. Times their base form's hit dice, in case of Improved Familiars whose bases possess more than one.
But definitely not a bunch of skill points every time their master levels.
Ah, yes. That should be true.
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... plus the wizard might be able to lend a non-sage skills like Stealth if she has enough ranks to max it.Maybe useful at low levels, but stealth is obsoleted by spells way faster than knowledge is.
It depends. I eventually took Stealth on my Int headband so my familiar could benefit from max ranks, class skill, Tiny size bonus, and also whichever of those stealthy spells I want to cast on her. Since my familiar has quite high Charisma and I also have maxed out social skills like Diplomacy, she also benefits from those. Don't tell her this, but she's slightly better at them than I am.
dot
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How I see it for the Sage Familiar:
Every time you level up you have to check to see if the new Int modifier gives you more skills. If it does your familiar get's its number of RHD in extra skill points that level.
Example 1: A Sage Paracletus(AEON) familiar is taken at 7th level due to Improved Familiar with the Sage Archetype, its Int increases from 11 to 12 so it Automatically gains 3 skill points due to racial hit die(RHD)+14 skill points due to Sages Knowledge skill points. It would then gain +2 SP(Sages knowledge) at every even level, or +5 SP (+2SK, +3RHD) at every odd level.(just ignore Paracletus' Extension of all for this example, no that it applies directly but it does help the Sage quite a bit.)
Example 2: Magus takes an Aether elemental at 11th level due to the untimely death of his previous Familiar. Its base Int mod is 4 and has 2 RHD, its new INT is 16 so we subtract 4(-3) from 16(+3) to get 12, then divide by 2 to see how many skill points we get per RHD, then we multiply that number by the number of RHD to get how many skill points the familiar has to spend. even levels he would get +2 SP, odd levels he would get 4 SP.
Per one of the Bestiary books we see that Outsiders get 6+Intmod per HD in skills, which both Aeons and Elementals are subtypes of. it also lists Bluff, Craft, Knowledge (planes), Perception, Sense Motive, and Stealth (plus 4 additional by theme.) as class skills.
the same chart has animals(regular familiars) getting the same skills listed under what normal familiars get.
If you take apart the improved familiars to check how many ranks they have it typically works out based on the chart for monster types. (I cheat when I'm have to deal with this and use http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/rules-for-monsters/creature-types )
This also matches the saves the base Improved familiars have as well as others.
The best way to optimise this archetype is to find a High HD familiar with a super low Int to start. Give you Familiar buddy a Mask of a thousand tomes(10k) for an additional +10 to knowledge checks.
TL;DR: Sage is a pain in the butt to get started, but if you are playing a sorcerer or non-int caster with low skill points It can be really worth it to pick it up (especially if you get a Paracletus AEON for its "Extension of All" racial SQ).
Familiars always have 1 HD.
The Sage Archetype says that "a sage gains 2 skill ranks at each level." So every level it gets 2 skill ranks. Not 2 + INT, and not 2 + 2 + INT. It gets just 2 every level.
Now, it will also get 1 skill equal to its INT mod beyond 0. It doesnt get this extra skill rank every level, it gets this extra skill rank only one time, because it only has one HIT DIE.
A Level 7 Sage Familiar always has an INT equal to 12 (5+7). From this alone, it gets 3 (2+INT Mod of 1) skill ranks. It also gets 2 skill ranks for each Level it is, 14 (2x7). This means it has 17 Skill Ranks.