It might be just me, but there are plenty of feats which give spells or effects which are given too late to provide a real help in a campaign.
For example, all lvl 13 feats which allow a character to use a summon creature X as an innate lvl 5 spell.
Now, in this 2e summons have being toned down ( or to better say, simply balanced ).
The spell requires 3 actions ( a whole turn ) and hatever your spellcasting level, the highest creature you could summon for that specific level won't ever be equal ( in terms of chances to hit, AC, saves, and so on ) to a character.
And while this is ok ( in my opinion it's fine ), it's weirdly off when it comes to ancestry or heritage feats.
Let's take for an instance the summon fiend feat given by the tiefling heritage ( the aasimar one is the same but for celestial, but I wouldn't consider this one because apparently there's no lvl 5 celestial creature, so the comparison would be even worse ):
A lvl 13 martial character will have a hit chance of +26 (13+5+6+2).
The average lvl 13 AC would bg 34.
The average hit chance of a lvl 5 summon fiend would be +15
In order to hit a lvl 13 creature ( it's a lvl 13 creature because you will be lvl 13 by the time you will take the feat ), the summoned creature would need 19+ on its first attack ( 17+ if flanking ).
Now, unless I am missing something, feats like these are totally uselss.
But same goes for other stuff like Aasimar's Mercy
Quote: Your celestial powers allow you to remove lesser afflictions with ease. Each day, you can cast two 4th-level divine innate spells. You can choose from the following spells each time you cast: remove curse, remove disease, and neutralize poison. Counteract rules
Quote: Some effects try to counteract spells, afflictions, conditions, or other effects. Counteract checks compare the power of two forces and determine which defeats the other. Successfully counteracting an effect ends it unless noted otherwise.
When attempting a counteract check, add the relevant skill modifier or other appropriate modifier to your check against the target’s DC. If you’re counteracting an affliction, the DC is in the affliction’s stat block. If it’s a spell, use the caster’s DC. The GM can also calculate a DC based on the target effect’s level. For spells, the counteract check modifier is your spellcasting ability modifier plus your spellcasting proficiency bonus, plus any bonuses and penalties that specifically apply to counteract checks. What you can counteract depends on the check result and the target’s level. If an effect is a spell, its level is the counteract level. Otherwise, halve its level and round up to determine its counteract level. If an effect’s level is unclear and it came from a creature, halve and round up the creature’s level.
Critical Success Counteract the target if its counteract level is no more than 3 levels higher than your effect’s counteract level.
Success Counteract the target if its counteract level is no more than 1 level higher than your effect’s counteract level.
Failure Counteract the target if its counteract level is lower than your effect’s counteract level.
Critical Failure You fail to counteract the target.
So, even considering a lvl -1/2 enemy, the character would need a critical success to deal with them. And from lvl 16+ , the character won't be able anymore to even counteract on a critical success ( creature lvl /2 = 8 vs 4+3=7. There could be some possibilities for what concerns spellcasting, if low level spells are cast, but to be honest all of this would majorly concern poisons, diseases and curses non cast as spells ).
Anyway, like the summon creature feat, it's no use by lvl 13 ( especially Compared to feats like Celestial strikes or even enforced orders ).
Though those 2 are not the only ones among all the ancestries/heritages, did I miss anything or there's some sort of issue for what concerns progression ( like static DC for some magic items, which tends to already be obsolete the time you might get em )?
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I get the general feeling that a lot of stuff was written without really understanding the counteract rules, like the Marvelous Medicines granting counter-spells (that is, spells that involve a counteract check) that are just too low-level to really be effective (12th level item granting 3rd level counter-spells, or a 19th level item granting 6th level counter-spells).
As for summoning, it just looks generally ineffective to me: Spending a top-level spell slot to summon a creature of roughly half your level just seems like a bad idea, so unfortunately the ancestry feat versions aren't really noticeably worse...
That's why it says "lesser afflictions". These abilities and items are intentionally not supposed to be as strong as spending a spell slot of your current level. Otherwise what would be the point of being a spell caster in the first place?
Let's take Marvelous Medicines as an example. Firstly, it's primarily a Healer's Kit that provides a +2 item bonus. Secondly, it can provide the effects of a Remove Poison or Remove Disease as a 3rd level spell. If you get it at level 12, a Crit will successfully counteract an effect of your level or lower. You apply your +2 bonus to it, and you're likely going to have a higher Medicine bonus than you casting bonus. At level 12, we're looking at a +25 Medicine vs a +21 counteract check for casting a spell. We can also look at its price, being 1800g, and you can attempt to counteract each poison or disease afflicting multiple characters. meanwhile a 6th level wand is 3000g and can only be used once per day.
The level 18 version is even better, providing a +3 item bonus. Luckily your casting proficency is basically caught up by then, but you still couldn't get the +3 bonus in any way. The lvl 18 version can counteract up to 9th level effects, so anything other than a 10th level spell or a 19+ level creature/item.
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As for summons, you have to think more tactically. Use them as distractions, flankers, or make use of their abilities. They aren't intended to be the main damage dealers like they used to be.
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Cordell, I accept that you might have your point and try to address the best way to deal with specific feats or spells in the best way, but given how this 2e works in terms of progression, simply shows that some spells, as well feats, don't fit this system.
I mean, this whole 2e is about the 3 action + reaction system, tied to a progression which goes from -1 to +3 ( eventually +4 ) enemies.
Under these circumstances, neither lvl 5 ( if you are lucky, because as pointed out other summons like celestial don't have a lvl 5 creature ) summoned creatures nor remove disease/poison/curse will help in any way.
You could find a city devastated from a plague and help 2 citizens recover from a deadly disease... yeah, cool... but what's the point of this? What's the point in expending a mid/high feat to get stuff you won't ever be able to use.
I'd also like you to consider that many times alternatives ( other lvl 13 or 9 ancestry feats ) are not simply alternatives, but absolutely better ( like being able to deal 1 additional good damage with your strikes, which might also trigger a weakness ).
So yeah, Aasimar's mercy can be used to deal with low level stuff ( you stopped to face 5 levels before ) even if you are no a spellcaster, and you can trade a whole turn ( to summon ) as well as an action per turn ( sustain ) to help flanking ( because your summon won't hit a thing, and the enemies won't hit a non dangerous creature ), but that's it.
So, currently, for what concerns mechanics and utility, they are not even a choice.
This thread should be in General Discussion. Not in Rules. Flagged to change location.
HumbleGamer wrote: Cordell, I accept that you might have your point and try to address the best way to deal with specific feats or spells in the best way, but given how this 2e works in terms of progression, simply shows that some spells, as well feats, don't fit this system.
I mean, this whole 2e is about the 3 action + reaction system, tied to a progression which goes from -1 to +3 ( eventually +4 ) enemies.
Under these circumstances, neither lvl 5 ( if you are lucky, because as pointed out other summons like celestial don't have a lvl 5 creature ) summoned creatures nor remove disease/poison/curse will help in any way.
You could find a city devastated from a plague and help 2 citizens recover from a deadly disease... yeah, cool... but what's the point of this? What's the point in expending a mid/high feat to get stuff you won't ever be able to use.
I'd also like you to consider that many times alternatives ( other lvl 13 or 9 ancestry feats ) are not simply alternatives, but absolutely better ( like being able to deal 1 additional good damage with your strikes, which might also trigger a weakness ).
So yeah, Aasimar's mercy can be used to deal with low level stuff ( you stopped to face 5 levels before ) even if you are no a spellcaster, and you can trade a whole turn ( to summon ) as well as an action per turn ( sustain ) to help flanking ( because your summon won't hit a thing, and the enemies won't hit a non dangerous creature ), but that's it.
So, currently, for what concerns mechanics and utility, they are not even a choice.
But what if your scenario is more about storytelling and the social impact of a deadly disease ravaging a city and your team is attempting to assist in any way possible, rather than just fight after fight against deadly monsters? Every feat has a place, it may not be "optimal" but it's still a good feat for certain scenarios. Flavor is also a great place for these feats. I have a Life Oracle Champion who does no damage, so I would prefer a feat that gives me a free spell per day over more damage, even if that spell is not as powerful as my spell slots.
Taja the Barbarian wrote:
As for summoning, it just looks generally ineffective to me: Spending a top-level spell slot to summon a creature of roughly half your level just seems like a bad idea, so unfortunately the ancestry feat versions aren't really noticeably worse...
In terms of direct combat yes. A summoned creature is not a direct challenge, its just a speed bump for a level appropriate creature.
In fact 9 out of 10 times their best tactic is to ignore the summoned creature if they can. They are pretty much in auto critical territory if they go after it so it does last long if they need to deal with it.
Which by the way make summoned things with immune to criticals much more durable.
Summoning as currently done is not a main line combat tactic. It is still an incredibly useful utility.
The only way I can see to fix it in the current game is to play the Proficiency with out Level variant rule.
I'm hoping there is some more interesting common ground coming out soon.
Honestly, these are basically 'trap feats': They look good at first glance, but once you dig into the actual specifics of how they work (the significance of spell level for counteracting and the actual creature levels you can summon with a spell), you can see they aren't really useful for an adventurer...
They are always useful for detecting traps, so "trap feat" is kind of appropriate.
Taja the Barbarian wrote: Honestly, these are basically 'trap feats': They look good at first glance, but once you dig into the actual specifics of how they work (the significance of spell level for counteracting and the actual creature levels you can summon with a spell), you can see they aren't really useful for an adventurer... Yeah, mostly this.
I also want to add that I can understand some niche feat, which can have a slight use.
For example, I took Blessed Blood (Aasimar) instead of Clever improviser (Human), even though it can happen to trigger one or twice from lvl 1 to lvl 20, while clever improviser would have been, objectively, a way better choice.
Gortle wrote: They are always useful for detecting traps, so "trap feat" is kind of appropriate. Indeed, but if I were the DM and the used creature hadn't the "mindless" trait, I would treat a similar action like how it is written on the "Final Sacrifice" feat.
Back to the ancestry feats, I think that Purge Sins is how an ancestry feat should work.
Quote:
Actions: 1
Frequency once per day
You call on your celestial forebears to rid your body of all toxins and impurities. For each disease or poison currently affecting you, attempt a Religion check to counteract that disease or poison. As normal, your counteract level is equal to half your level, rounded up.
- 1 action required ( but you are the only one target ).
- Frequency once per day ( so you will be able to use it just once )
- Skill requirement ( tough one, though perfectly related to an Aasimar character )
- Counteract level = half your level rounded up, which means you would be always able to use it regardless the situation.
I'd really appreciate to have stuff meant to counteract working this way, and I'd also accept for the given talent effectiveness to be drastically reduced ( Talking about Aasimar's mercy, it could be once per day, and the time you select your feat you choose between poisons, diseases or curses ).
Either Aasimar's Mercy and Purge sins would be worse than getting a +1 good damage on your attacks, but still they will be useful in niche situations.
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