This is funny because I can't tell which position you are trying to apply to which "way". I can tell you don't like the second one, but I can only make a guess as to which version you actually like.
To me, the idea that you can hide in concealment and cover works with the first version.
Its entirely realistic that you can walk into a room and not notice a pair of feet sticking out from under a tapestry.
It is entirely unrealistic to me that you can walk into a room, have someone jump out from behind a tapestry, have them run back into the tapestry, and loose track of said feet.
What has been seen cannot as easily be unseen. You have to work at it.
I understand that is how you describe it. But look at the same exact scenario, and mechanics, from my point of view for a second.
I see it as when they jump back behind the curtain, you know they are there. If they get a higher stealth than you do perception check, they can get the drop on you because you don't know which side of the curtain they are going to attack from and you don't know when they are going to do it.
Additionally, you also have concealment from them. You have the ability to do the exact same thing to them.
In paintball and military training I have used a tree or utility pole in much the same way. I would jump behind one and take cover. My opponents all knew I was right handed so they expect me to come out on their left/my right to fire at them. I would wait a long time, let them waste ammo and get impatient. I would switch my grip on my weapon to shoot left handed and pop out on my left/their right and tag them 2-3 times before they could react.
THAT is how I "justify" the use of stealth via cover/concealment with very real world examples.
Yes, you could run away with cover.
Why would you ever not? A mechanic requiring two succesfull opposed skill checks with two different skills AND a whopping -10 really ought to have some kind of payout.
But if you don't need to be unobserved there is none.
The paragraph makes it clear that is supposed to be something REALLY hard to do, not just reach cover and POOF, you keep moving whereever you want with a simple opposed skill check
When you snipe successfully, no one has any idea where you are. It does not leave an arrow in your butt that tells you where to look. This is a case where you are unaware of the location of the attacker.
Incorrect. Stealth does not hide all evidence of you existing. You still leave tracks, you still have a scent, and if you interact with the world you leave traces that people can follow. Its a dc 0 heal check to realize which part of your anatomy has an arrow in it.
When you stealth after the attack, people have a very good idea of where you are.
Somewhere within a 50 foot radius (if not more) is not a very good idea.
They can follow you
They cannot. They don't know which way you went. They can go to where you were, but if you're smart you're not there anymore.
When they get around the cover, you INSTANTLY are seen as you no longer have cover to hide behind. You are by no means safe.
Hide behind something that blocks the view from your starting position. Or better yet ye olde briar patch for the all around thing.
My group has never had a problem playing where cover and concealment allow stealth. Our rogues cannot in any way dominate the battlefield because of it. They just get a chance to use some of their...
You don't have munchkins. Don't imagine this with a rogue, imagine this with a wizard that fireballs the fighter in the face, and then because its dim out, starts to stealth where they stand and winds up 25 feet from where they started, unseen, at no penalty.
Yes, you could run away with cover.
Why would you ever not? A mechanic requiring two succesfull opposed skill checks with two different skills AND a whopping -10 really ought to have some kind of payout.
But if you don't need to be unobserved there is none.
The paragraph makes it clear that is supposed to be something REALLY hard to do, not just reach cover and POOF, you keep moving whereever you want with a simple opposed skill check
When you snipe successfully, no one has any idea where you are. It does not leave an arrow in your butt that tells you where to look. This is a case where you are unaware of the location of the attacker.Incorrect. Stealth does not hide all evidence of you existing. You still leave tracks, you still have a scent, and if you interact with the world you leave traces that people can follow. Its a dc 0 heal check to realize which part of your anatomy has an arrow in it.
When you stealth after the attack, people have a very good idea of where you are.Somewhere within a 50 foot radius (if not more) is not a very good idea.
They can follow youThey cannot. They don't know which way you went. They can go to where you were, but if you're smart you're not there anymore.
When they get around the cover, you INSTANTLY are seen as you no longer have cover to hide behind. You are by no means safe.Hide behind something that blocks the view from your starting position. Or better yet ye olde briar patch for the all around thing.
You don't have munchkins. Don't imagine this with a rogue, imagine this with a wizard that fireballs the fighter in the face, and then because its dim out, starts to stealth where they stand and...
My group has never had a problem playing where cover and concealment allow stealth. Our rogues cannot in any way dominate the battlefield because of it. They just get a chance to use some of their...
I get that you are going to add rules where you want and ignore those that you don't want to in an attempt to refute other points of view. But lets be reasonable.
You do know where a character scurries off to up until the point that they stealth. Even with the newer stealth rules that let you move from cover to cover, you would know when the above break that cover. You cannot move from an open position to behind a tree and then sneakily move to the next tree, 15' away. Because you would have to start the round in stealth to be able to do anything like that.
However, bluff would allow you to move from a open position into stealth and then to a position where you would still be in stealth. This means that an opponent standing right next to you would effectively disappear right there and you would not know where they ended up. There is a clear difference, and advantage.
There is nothing in the Heal rules that allow you to know which direction an attack came from. We all know there is no facing. That also applies to you getting hit from an unknown attacker, which is what a sniping person is doing. And yes, special abilities will trump sniping. But without those special abilities, or a successful perception check, no one knows where the sniper is. You cannot look for the arrow and then follow it back to the attacker.
I don't imagine many wizards have very high stealth checks, but OK, the same rules apply to all classes, so what?
We clearly disagree on whether cover and concealment enable one to stealth. But we also seem to disagree on other parts of how stealth works beyond that issue alone. And in my opinion, many of your statements about stealth, and especially sniping, are incorrect even if cover and concealment do not allow for stealth.
I get that you are going to add rules where you want and ignore those that you don't want to in an attempt to refute other points of view. But lets be reasonable.
Completely dismissing someone's points like that by attacking their character instead of the points is not reasoning or reasonable. Goodbye.