I miss prestige classes

[Leandro Garvel]

I've also been contemplating making the Prestige Classes into Variant Multiclasses, but don't know how well that would work with some of them...

[Gambit]

My Self wrote:

Gambit wrote:

Under this rule, for the most part, the maximum number of PrCs any single character can possibly have will be 2.

Agreed, although it is possible to squeeze 4 as a LG Halfling Cleric 5/Balanced Scale of Abadar 5/Hafling Opportunist 5/Chevalier 3/Whatever 2

And I wouldn't necessarily have a problem with a character like that as long as it was all properly roleplayed out and fit in game. But that is also a very niche corner case unlikely to see much actual play.

[Davor]

The thing I like about archetypes is that they allow you to play your character the exact way you want from level 1, and that's an important thing. Heck, the new Eldritch Scoundrel for Rogue is pretty much the best thing since sliced bread because it says "I can be an Arcane Trickster at 1st level, no strings attached".

If I were to combine the philosophies of Archetypes/Prestige Classes, I'd probably do some sort of staggered class progression: Say, for example, the base classes only go up to level 10. Then, from levels 11-20, you take your levels in any prestige classes for which you qualify, with requirements being more roleplay-oriented than mechanically oriented. Example: The Eldritch Knight is not just a class. It's an order of martial arcanists devoted to X, Y, & Z (depending on your campaign world). Progress through the ranks of the EKs requires tests of both magical and martial prowess, and in addition to continuing spellcasting for existing casters, it provides NON-spellcasters a small spell list (think bard/magus level spellcasting, but you only get 10 levels of it).

Of course, then I'd have to redesign the entire philosophy of high-level pathfinder, but I think it'd much rather see a system like this than "Prerequisites: Diehard, Toughness".

[HyperMissingno]

One problem I have with the "prestige classes are organizations" thing is that some of them don't feel like organizations. Winter Witch and Rage Prophet are two that immediately come to mind, unless winter patrons are all having parties and there's a tribe of barbarians that a god just hands out divine spellcasting to. (It doesn't help that my table believes that Oracles/Sorcerers make up less than 5% of their type of caster with Clerics/Wizards making up about 75% or something.)

[Zhangar]

Winter Witch is very much an organization in setting - the Jadwiga Winter Witches are the ruling class of Irrisen.

Rage prophet doesn't work as an organization, but rage prophet's also setting neutral. I think the Pathfinder Chroniclers is the only PRC from the CRB and APG that's actually to represent a specific group rather a specially trained individual. (Though CRB assassin may also count.)

[Leandro Garvel]

HyperMissingno wrote:

One problem I have with the "prestige classes are organizations" thing is that some of them don't feel like organizations. Winter Witch and Rage Prophet are two that immediately come to mind, unless winter patrons are all having parties and there's a tribe of barbarians that a god just hands out divine spellcasting to. (It doesn't help that my table believes that Oracles/Sorcerers make up less than 5% of their type of caster with Clerics/Wizards making up about 75% or something.)

Some of them are definitely less definitively tied to an organisation than others, but I feel like they tend to be the core ones that are more setting neutral - and are easy enough to tie to an organisation with additional flavour worked out with the player.

On a side note, I've always seen Rage Prophets as Pathfinder's setting-neutral answer to the Eye of Gruumsh prestige class from D&D.

[hiiamtom]

Prestige has gotten better in Pathfinder, but the core rules will always hold PrCs back with no FCB and almost all class abilities class level based.

If anything, PrCs in Pathfinder should work like a template - like the way Lycanthropy or Vampirism works. You RP and join an organization and receive a benefit. Maybe even have a few "levels" representing rank in the prestige.

I guess that makes me agree with JJ on this one, but I'm a big RQ fan which has cults and organizations that work like that.

EDIT

I will say I find most PrCs more interesting than most archetypes.

[JiCi]

I never got much into prestige classes really... Back in 3.5, they became far too numerous to be viable, multiclassing became a necessity and their features often led to a one-trick pony.

Sure, Pathfinder has several PrCs, but TBH, many of them feel rather obsolete since the introduction of archetypes. for instance, the Red Mantis Assassin could easily be replaced by the Mantis Zealot warpriest archetype.

Assassin? Check out the slayer...
Arcane Archer? Check the Eldritch Archer magus archetype...
Duelist? Check out the swashbuckler...
Holy Vindicator? Check out the warpriest...
Nature Warden? Check out the hunter...

Granted some PrCs are still viable on their own, but they are often overshadowed by archetypes these days... or they're about to be...

[My Self]

What if PRCs granted a bonus based on your character level, instead of just your PRC level? So if you take an Assassin PRC, you get Death Attack and Poison Use at character level 6, scaling +1/2 to saves against poison at character level 7, True Death at 9th, Quiet Death at 11th, Hide in Plain Sight at 13th, Swift Death at 14th, and Angel of Death at 15th? Death Attach would be based upon 10+1/2 character level+INT modifier. Or maybe you would unlock Death Attack and Poison use with 1 level in Assassin, but you'd need to take another one to unlock all the other death attack things (which would still scale based on character level). Just spitballing here, any thoughts?

[Leandro Garvel]

JiCi wrote:

I never got much into prestige classes really... Back in 3.5, they became far too numerous to be viable, multiclassing became a necessity and their features often led to a one-trick pony.

Sure, Pathfinder has several PrCs, but TBH, many of them feel rather obsolete since the introduction of archetypes. for instance, the Red Mantis Assassin could easily be replaced by the Mantis Zealot warpriest archetype.

Assassin? Check out the slayer...
Arcane Archer? Check the Eldritch Archer magus archetype...
Duelist? Check out the swashbuckler...
Holy Vindicator? Check out the warpriest...
Nature Warden? Check out the hunter...

Granted some PrCs are still viable on their own, but they are often overshadowed by archetypes these days... or they're about to be...

But each of those Prestige Classes do have unique abilities which the archetype "replacements" you mention can't do.

Granted, I'd say the Prestige Classes are mostly weaker than a well built character with those archetypes, but they are also different and sometimes you want the difference.

[Ghaton]

If I'm not mistaken, Advanced class guide offers advice for building your own homebrew classes. I'm tempted to try building some Prestige Classes for my home game. Although that doesn't really help with Society games.

[jedi8187]

HyperMissingno wrote:

One problem I have with the "prestige classes are organizations" thing is that some of them don't feel like organizations. Winter Witch and Rage Prophet are two that immediately come to mind, unless winter patrons are all having parties and there's a tribe of barbarians that a god just hands out divine spellcasting to. (It doesn't help that my table believes that Oracles/Sorcerers make up less than 5% of their type of caster with Clerics/Wizards making up about 75% or something.)

This was a point I made earlier. Things like Rage Prophet should be archetypes not Prestige Classes. That would leave Prestige Classes for things like Organizations or such. Obviously you can't go back and remove the old prestige classes, but this seems to be the distinction being made now.

[Chengar Qordath]

I do miss the way 3.5's prestige classes opened up some fun oddball and esoteric options that would be hard to reflect in the archetype system. Want your wizard to skin a demon and run around wearing his skin as a suit? Sure thing. How about a sorcerer who eats enough metal to turn himself into a golem? Also doable. Turn into a dragon or take on draconic aspects? There are a dozen PrC's for that! And so on...

[Milo v3]

I've never really found a PrC that wouldn't fit better as an archetype or class feature substitution. I mean, if you think x abilities are reasonable for assassin type characters, why do they have to be evil to get them? And if they are organizations, how do they check if you have the right number of skills points since skill points are abstractions and only part of the result that will be displayed to the organisations members.

[Darigaaz the Igniter]

I'm gonna throw my 2cp in and suggest two types of prestige class. 5 level classes balanced and designed for taking at 6-10; and 10 level classes designed to take at 11-20.

You can combine the two, or take one or the other, or stay single class, and should still be roughly as powerful no matter which combo.

[JiCi]

Leandro Garvel wrote:

JiCi wrote:

I never got much into prestige classes really... Back in 3.5, they became far too numerous to be viable, multiclassing became a necessity and their features often led to a one-trick pony.

Sure, Pathfinder has several PrCs, but TBH, many of them feel rather obsolete since the introduction of archetypes. for instance, the Red Mantis Assassin could easily be replaced by the Mantis Zealot warpriest archetype.

Assassin? Check out the slayer...
Arcane Archer? Check the Eldritch Archer magus archetype...
Duelist? Check out the swashbuckler...
Holy Vindicator? Check out the warpriest...
Nature Warden? Check out the hunter...

Granted some PrCs are still viable on their own, but they are often overshadowed by archetypes these days... or they're about to be...

But each of those Prestige Classes do have unique abilities which the archetype "replacements" you mention can't do.

Granted, I'd say the Prestige Classes are mostly weaker than a well built character with those archetypes, but they are also different and sometimes you want the difference.

Really...?

Assassin: main feature being Assassinate; the slayer gets it.
Arcane Archer: channeling spells through arrows; the Eldritch Archer gets it.
Duelist: Parry, Precise Strike and Improved Reaction are all available to the Swashbuckler
Holy Vindicator: Ok, fine, I'll give you this one, because neiother the cleric or the warpriest can focus on Channel Energy.
Nature Warden: Emphasis on the animal companion... which is just what the hunter does, better than the ranger or the druid.

[Derek Dalton]

Most of the earlier Prestige classes have been essentially replaced with newer classes almost as good in some ways better. True most of the new classes lack one or two key abilities but the trade is actually comparable.
Assassin's Death Strike the DC is actually insultingly low if you really look at it. An equal level PC has a good chance over fifty of saving against this. Most monsters have even better saves. It takes time to do this attack as well.
Prestige classes do offer something classes and archtypes don't offer the problem is they just don't offer enough to continue to take it for all levels. Even the mystic thuerge offering both a level in divine and a level in arcane is lacking. Had a few friends play one all agree they in theory are nice in practice not so much.
Prestige classes to be in an organization is easy to ignore. In every case the organization states that not everyone including high level members have levels in their particular prestige class. The solution is role play that. Our group did had a fighter who earned the right to be called a Hell Knight. Both their prestige classes really are not at all impressive.

[Douglas Muir 406]

Paizo does have a few PrCs that are fun and playable. Let me just put in a plug here for one of them: the Diabolist. You specialize in calling up devils, and you get really good at that; you also get an imp companion and some nicely scalable powers. It's a well designed class, and lots of fun if that's the sort of thing you want to do.

(Full disclosure: I wrote DMDM's Guide to the Diabolist.)

Doug M.

[Douglas Muir 406]

Meanwhile, there are several things Paizo's design team have consistently done to make PrCs less attractive.

To be clear: I don't mind that Paizo PrCs tend to be weakish compared to the core classes. That's a deliberate choice Paizo made as a response to the badly designed, overpowered PrCs of 3.5, and I'm fine with it. I don't mind weak or suboptimal. That's perfectly okay, especially if I'm trading power for fun and flavor. What I'm objecting to are poor design choices -- stuff that seems tax-y, redundant, or poorly thought out, and class attributes that are pointless or non-fun. For instance:

Skill and feat taxes. I don't mind investing in a skill or feat that's a little unusual or suboptimal. That's part of the fun of PrCs. But please don't make me burn a feat slot on something that's irrelevant, worthless, or both. And while thematic skill requirements are fine, it's mildly annoying when you either have to either invest in skills that are completely worthless otherwise, or invest in so many skills that you're going to end up skill-starved. Any PrC that requires me to max out three different skills really should be one that's designed for rogues or bards. (Yes, Green Faith Acolyte, I'm looking at you.)

PrC class attributes that don't scale with level. This one is really common, and typically takes the form "at X level of the PrC, you get to do Y as a spell or SLA". For instance, the Souleater PrC gives you the ability to Summon 1d3 cacodemons at 3rd level. This is roughly equivalent to a 4th level spell, so it's not a terrible ability for an 8th level character. By 10th level, though, it'll be pretty pointless, and at higher levels it'll be almost completely worthless. (Note that the souleater PrC already has a cacodaemon familiar, so there's no great benefit to having two or three more floating around.) Similarly, a 6th level Harrower (at least an 11th level character) gains the ability to cast Divination -- a fourth level spell -- once/day. This is sort of okay at 11th level, but within a couple more levels it's almost completely pointless.

Class attributes that are trivial. Do I really need to list these? There are a lot of them. I don't mean stuff that is useless but flavorful, like the Winter Witch's ability to freeze water into ice. No, I'm talking stuff like the Harrower's Spirit Deck, which looks cool at first glance but is really a Magic missile, except with much shorter range and less damage.

Class attributes that are redundant. PrCs should be interesting and unique and should give benefits that are difficult or impossible to get otherwise. They shouldn't duplicate racial benefits or stuff you can get from an archetype or bloodline. For instance, the Master of Storms is an interesting PrC -- but its abilities overlap considerably with the Stormborn bloodline. You might think it would be a natural combination. In fact, it's distinctly suboptimal. Similarly, the Agent of the Grave gives you negative energy affinity that's identical to what a dhampir PC gets at creation, the Halfling Opportunist gives you the trapfinder rogue talent, and so forth.

Class attributes that force you to be MAD. A lot of PrCs have class attributes that build off a particular stat, i.e., "you can use this a number of times equal to 3+ your Cha modifier", "the saving throw on this is based in your Int modifier", and so forth. But this stat may not be the primary stat for the character. A PrC that's supposed to be accessible to all spellcasters shouldn't build a class attribute on (for instance) Cha, because that favors classes that have high Cha anyway (bards, sorcerors) while penalizing classes that normally dump Cha. Even worse are PrCs that build multiple class attributes off two (or sometimes even more) different stats.

Skill starvation. A startling number of PrCs are 2 skills/level. Why is this? Do characters in these classes have no further need of skills? This one gets particularly annoying when the class gives you benefits that are linked to particular skills. For instance, the Arcane Savant lets you use Spellcraft and UMD in ways that other characters can't. That's great! But Arcane Savant gives you 2 skills/level. In theory, a sorceror could become an Arcane Savant. In practice, any character without an Int bonus is going to have no skill increases after entering this class.

There are Paizo PrCs that avoid most or all of these problems. I've mentioned the Diabolist; it's a PrC that is good for any full casting class, doesn't impose feat taxes, gives you stuff that scales with level, and gives you class attributes that are both flavorful and unique. The Veiled Illusionist, with its Veil Pool, would be another -- it's a well designed class that is balanced, fun, and attractive if you want to cast illusions all day long. But a depressing majority of Paizo PrCs show many or all of the design problems mentioned above.

(Seriously, the skill tax one. It's minor, but like 3/4 of Paizo's PrCs are 2 ranks/level. What is even up with that.)

Doug M.

[Set]

Philo Pharynx wrote:

DM_Blake wrote:

Some prerequisites

Class features: continue progress in your own class AND get the following:
a few small beneficial class features that make you slightly better but not a lot better
Restrictions: optional, but maybe the PrC has a code of conduct or something that helps keep it balanced.

A code of conduct is a poor balancing mechanism. In some games it will be a huge restriction, in others it will be almost no restriction.

An RP restriction for a mechanical benefit is a wonky thing. Too often, in my experience, it doesn't penalize the player, as much as the other gamers at the table, who are forced to have *their* characters actions limited (or their game time punctuated by alignment / morality arguments...) by the code-of-conduct characters roleplay restrictions.

Much like the old 'flips out and attacks his allies' or 'destroys magic loot because he hates magic' drawback of some versions of the Barbarian, it's less of a penalty for the player choosing it, than a punishment for everyone else unfortunate enough to be stuck with his character in the party.

[JiCi]

Douglas Muir 406 wrote:

Meanwhile, there are several things Paizo's design team have consistently done to make PrCs less attractive.

To be clear: I don't mind that Paizo PrCs tend to be weakish compared to the core classes. That's a deliberate choice Paizo made as a response to the badly designed, overpowered PrCs of 3.5, and I'm fine with it. I don't mind weak or suboptimal. That's perfectly okay, especially if I'm trading power for fun and flavor. What I'm objecting to are poor design choices -- stuff that seems tax-y, redundant, or poorly thought out, and class attributes that are pointless or non-fun.

I'll add this as an example for the Skill and feat taxes: The Shadowdancer requires skills in Perform (Dance), which is fitting considering the concept. However, that skill is NEVER used... at all. The Shadowdancer doesn't substitute a regular skill check by a Perform check for any of its abilities.

You also forgot one:
Multiclassing requirements: that might be lessened here, but several PrCs have you jump between 2 classes, like the Battle Herald with both the Bard and Cavalier. Why this didn't become a Bard archetype is beyond me... I recall a PrC in 3.5 that required like class features, but from 3 different classes (druid, sorcerer and rogue)... ouch XS

[Salafax]

Koujow wrote:

I know a lot of people dislike prestige classes for different reasons. Either they weren't worth it mechanically or their bonuses didn't compare with going 20 levels in a single class or that archetypes for the most part get rid of needing to wait 7+ levels for the benefits a prestige class might offer. But I still think they are really cool and I'm sad that they haven't had any support in what seems like forever.

Especially if it had some really great flavor behind it, like the Hellknights, Riftwardens or any of the Pathfinder prestige classes, or if they had a really awesome theme, like Dragon Disciple (I do still see a Dragon Disciple on occassion in PFS, although they have mostly been replaced with Bloodragers). It was just kind of fun to me to work towards some kind of goal or to see a player get really invested in an organization and get access to special training. I understand why they are no longer popular (Archetypes are much better in nearly every way) but still.

There is nothing stopping a player from taking a prestige class, but very, very rarely do you see it happen.

Yeah, I agree with much of this. I think perhaps the advent of the archtype has removed some of the sparkle of prestige classes.

That being said, the are some prestige classes that -- in my opinion -- are just super fun and flavorful to play. I *love* the Living Monolith, which was surprisingly easy for my Osirion ranger to quality for. I'm also a big fan of the Hellknight. I won't argue mechanically superiority but man are they sure fun to play : )

[hiiamtom]

I've been letting players use other class levels as half the class level for abilities - like the way Oracle curses work. I've also let them use favored class benefits every level even if they do not take another level in that class. Makes life a lot easier and now they are happy to take prestige.

[Douglas Muir 406]

JiCi wrote:

[I'll add this as an example for the Skill and feat taxes: The Shadowdancer requires skills in Perform (Dance), which is fitting considering the concept. However, that skill is NEVER used... at all. The Shadowdancer doesn't substitute a regular skill check by a Perform check for any of its abilities.

That's pretty bad, but it's also (unfortunately) pretty common. See, e.g., the Sanctified Prophet, who has to blow ranks on Profession (merchant) -- which not only never gets used, but may actually consume half the character's skill ranks for several levels (since he's likely to be a cleric, with just 2 ranks/level).

My personal candidate for "worst skill/feat tax" is the Halfling Opportunist. This poor little guy has is forced to waste a feat slot on Defensive Combat Training. That's (1) a feat that's really feeble under the best circumstances (it lets you use your hit dice instead of your BAB for determining your CMD); and, (2) is even more worthless for a halfling rogue (since you're going to have lowish Str and a negative size modifier, which means your CMD is going to be awful no matter what you do).

Doug M.

[Leandro Garvel]

JiCi wrote:

Leandro Garvel wrote:

JiCi wrote:

I never got much into prestige classes really... Back in 3.5, they became far too numerous to be viable, multiclassing became a necessity and their features often led to a one-trick pony.

Sure, Pathfinder has several PrCs, but TBH, many of them feel rather obsolete since the introduction of archetypes. for instance, the Red Mantis Assassin could easily be replaced by the Mantis Zealot warpriest archetype.

Assassin? Check out the slayer...
Arcane Archer? Check the Eldritch Archer magus archetype...
Duelist? Check out the swashbuckler...
Holy Vindicator? Check out the warpriest...
Nature Warden? Check out the hunter...

Granted some PrCs are still viable on their own, but they are often overshadowed by archetypes these days... or they're about to be...

But each of those Prestige Classes do have unique abilities which the archetype "replacements" you mention can't do.

Granted, I'd say the Prestige Classes are mostly weaker than a well built character with those archetypes, but they are also different and sometimes you want the difference.

Really...?

Assassin: main feature being Assassinate; the slayer gets it.
Arcane Archer: channeling spells through arrows; the Eldritch Archer gets it.
Duelist: Parry, Precise Strike and Improved Reaction are all available to the Swashbuckler
Holy Vindicator: Ok, fine, I'll give you this one, because neiother the cleric or the warpriest can focus on Channel Energy.
Nature Warden: Emphasis on the animal companion... which is just what the hunter does, better than the ranger or the druid.

Death Attack is different to Assassinate - it's worse, by itself, but the Assassin does technically get other stuff to augment it.

Imbue Arrow lets you put a Fireball on an arrow, which I don't believe the Eldritch Archer can? It can Spell Combat a shot and then a Fireball spell, but not quite the same.

All three of those class features you list for the Duelist are different than the Swashbuckler equivalent. The Duelist also gets Int to AC, which the Swashbuckler doesn't (although there are other classes - Kensai Magus? - that do).

I don't think the Nature Warden is better than the Hunter, but it does get different class features to the Hunter and I'm not gonna judge people for their choices if they fit the character they want to play.

[Silver Surfer]

James Jacobs wrote:

What you call a flaw I call a feature. Prestige classes, to me, are prestigious. They're "rewards" that you earn for devoting yourself to a specific path.

Exactly.

And what I do like about PrC currently is they function as a "flavour balancer" and that with caster classes they only progress the basics not all the extras that go with it.

A relatively bland class like a wizard or cleric can PrC to gain some novel and interesting features whereas already flavour and option filled classes like Oracles, Sorcerors and Shamans are restricted due to the loss of FCB and class features.

I would like to see more of them. Some of the current ones are OK but most just dont hit it IMO.

[My Self]

PRCs are balanced towards 3.5 classes, where you don't get capstones, don't get as many new features per level, don't have as many scaling features, and have fewer feats. Fewer feats means you can meet fewer prerequisites unless you stack levels in Fighter, and also means you can take fewer flavorful skill focuses or abilities. The 3.5-converted classes from the CRB are significantly better for PRC-ing than the later Paizo classes, because they are more front-loaded or provide abilities that are easy to scale. And regular class capstones are pretty awesome things and in a 1-20 game, are usually better than the PRC capstone. Silver Surfer mentioned Clerics and Wizards; they get all their goodies between levels 1-8, and have no capstone to speak of (excluding Wizard discoveries). Rogue gets Sneak Attack, which is a class feature that frequently gets advanced by PRCs. Fighter gets feats, which don't scale, or scale with BAB. In comparison, Inquisitors have Judgements which can only be scaled by the Inquisitor class and one PRC, Summoners rely upon class levels to keep their Eidolon and Summon Monster relevant, Witches need levels to keep their hex DCs up, and Oracles need levels for their revelations.

[Milo v3]

If prc's were just used for "so you can multiclass at high level without getting tonnes of non-level appropriate abilities" then I think they'd be a good justified idea.

[Belafon]

I Love Prestige Classes.

I play PFS a lot, where you pretty much aren't going to get to the high levels of the prestige classes. But here's the classes I do have, all with the minimum number of levels to enter the prestige class, then continuing in the prestige class:

Cleric/Envoy of Balance
Fighter/Golden Legionnaire
Inquisitor/Evangelist
Arcanist/Magaambian Arcanist
Bard/Pathfinder Chronicler

Are the prestige classes super-powerful? No. Are all of them interesting? Not to me. Are some of them bad fits for most base classes? Sure. Do most of them let you do things you couldn't otherwise do with your base class? You bet. With the exception of the Evangelist (which is a very role-play heavy character) all the prestige classes I took let you do things you couldn't do otherwise.

I don't take Prestige Classes because I want to be more powerful. I take prestige classes because I want to be more interesting.

[thaX]

Right now, in PFS, I have...

A Sleepless Detective.

An Eldritch Knight.

One going for Dragon Disciple. (Bard (Daredevil, Savage Skald))

One going for Living Monolith.

My dead guy that was going for Arcane Archer. (Elf? Really? Why?)

So with that, I think the main problem with Prestige Classes in PF is the high level entry requirement, most times almost at the time the character is 8th to 9th level, with some getting in at 6th level with good planning.

However it was done in 3.5, the adjustment for PrC's should have been a lower level entry for them, at the capstone 4th level, the character maybe choosing to wait until 5th to gain the capstone class abilities.

To be fair, though, a part of the reconstruction should have been to have the PrC's have some class adjustments to put them in line with the base classes improvements. The Shadowdancer also needed Sneak Attack progression, and the shadow should have other mechanics other than "character gains negative levels" when it is killed. (Those two made this a broke PrC)

The newer PrC's (in later publications) are better in ways, but still have the same buy ins and lack of strength, though some do have some pretty neat abilities that make them worth taking.

The overall current design, right now, though, favors the Archtypes and single class progression. PrC's are a flavor choice now, one that I have made for a few characters I have.

[Gulthor]

So far, I absolutely love a lot of the PF PrCs. Our group only just returned to PF from 4E a couple years ago, and in our Wrath of the Righteous game, we had a cleric/Hellknight Signifer/Holy Vindicator (myself), a rogue/Evangelist of Desna, a wizard/Collegiate Arcanist, and a paladin/Inheritor's Crusader - and that was a group where I was the only person who planned to go into a PrC from the start (Signifer is amazing, by the way, as is playing a Hellknight.)

The thing I especially love about PrCs is that for those playing primarily in APs, where you're extremely unlikely to ever see your capstone, a PrC offers the opportunity to catch a capstone right at level 15, just in time to get to enjoy it for the entire last book.

[Sah]

I'm currently building a mammoth rider. I do love prestige classes, and I wish more were better, but I do feel like archetypes and certain classes have filled some niches very nicely, like I feel less need for music theurge with the witch class (though I wish MT was better still).

Kinda related I really like the npc codex eldritch knight barb sorcerer (I think he was a half orc, with a very Arctic vibe) as I always saw eldritch knights as wizard fighters.

[Goth Guru]

I'm looking at the arcane archer, and a ranger could only take levels after 4th level. Only after 2nd level arcane archer can they shoot silence arrows at enemy spellcasters.

Maybe if you allow someone to qualify if they can cast any spell, including bonus spells or zero level spells. You should also allow someone with the fey bloodline. Also blunt arrows that do only subdual but can deliver spells, let your ranger heal at a distance.

I am thinking of starting a thread in homebrew.

Edited to add that divine spells should be allowed as an option. Sorry, I blocked on how hard this makes it on rangers. Having to take a sorcerer dip when you're a ranger, just to be able to fire touch spells.

[Lord Monty]

Seems prestige classes are leading discussions at the moment. To be honest I found 3/3.5 suffered from a lot of prestige power creep. Ur Priests combined with mystic theurge comes to mind as a bad example amid 3rd's time, sure there was a silly undead PrC as well that gave broken amounts of undead.

I like the way pazio is running them at the moment. I love hellknight signifiers allowing partial class ability advancement in a nicely rounded class, ofc Inner Sea Gods went further with this but I genuinely think them now as rare gems to look forward to rather than a glut of game defining power gaming tools.

They remain a tool to further make your hero unique and variety is the spice of life so let's encouraged more of them but only when they really add something special.