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As for the Player vs. GM idea, a GM that automatically assumes that technology is inherently disruptive is equally so.Nobody to my knowledge has ever made this claim.
I will make that claim. All things new, by their nature, are disruptive. And technology, by its nature, is new. Ergo, technology, at least in the sense that we are referring to here, is disruptive. Of course, the entire point of technology is that the benefits of using it outweigh the detriments (including disruption). And the disruption it causes frequently diminishes over time as people get used to the new thing. So simply saying, "it's disruptive" is not a sufficient reason to dismiss it.
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I will make that claim. All things new, by their nature, are disruptive. And technology, by its nature, is new. Ergo, technology, at least in the sense that we are referring to here, is disruptive. Of course, the entire point of technology is that the benefits of using it outweigh the detriments (including disruption). And the disruption it causes frequently diminishes over time as people get used to the new thing. So simply saying, "it's disruptive" is not a sufficient reason to dismiss it.As for the Player vs. GM idea, a GM that automatically assumes that technology is inherently disruptive is equally so.Nobody to my knowledge has ever made this claim.
While your statement is correct in general, I think you're changing definitions of "disruptive" here. The original meaning in this conversation was "disruptive at the table" or "does it disrupt the game".
As far as the "which is better: digital vs. paper" argument, all I can say is "I pity the poor GM who has to read my handwriting."
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As for the Player vs. GM idea, a GM that automatically assumes that technology is inherently disruptive is equally so.Nobody to my knowledge has ever made this claim.
May I jog your memory?
HeroLab really is that bad
I feel my experiences are beyond anecdotal (which is not a claim I make lightly). I GM at least once a week, quite a bit less than I used to, and yet still literally every game HeroLab causes problems. It *is* disruptive. Whether it's spending 15 seconds toggling Inspire Courage at level 1, wondering why a modifier is as low or as high as it is, simply forgetting how to use it, distracting your neighbor by asking a question, or trusting in their rules when they're blatantly wrong, HeroLab gives me no small amount of grief every game. This isn't a "personal crusade" against Lone Wolf or HeroLab, as people have repeatedly claimed. My animosity towards using the program at the table is because it is disruptive. I feel that when people make the claim that it isn't, it's either disingenuous, they're blind to it, or they're an outlier.
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Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento
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I will make that claim. All things new, by their nature, are disruptive. And technology, by its nature, is new. Ergo, technology, at least in the sense that we are referring to here, is disruptive. Of course, the entire point of technology is that the benefits of using it outweigh the detriments (including disruption). And the disruption it causes frequently diminishes over time as people get used to the new thing. So simply saying, "it's disruptive" is not a sufficient reason to dismiss it.As for the Player vs. GM idea, a GM that automatically assumes that technology is inherently disruptive is equally so.Nobody to my knowledge has ever made this claim.While your statement is correct in general, I think you're changing definitions of "disruptive" here. The original meaning in this conversation was "disruptive at the table" or "does it disrupt the game".
As far as the "which is better: digital vs. paper" argument, all I can say is "I pity the poor GM who has to read my handwriting."
Otherwise we could ban players for buying their books on amazon, or taking uber to game. (Both companies are self declared as disruptive technologies.)
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I will make that claim. All things new, by their nature, are disruptive. And technology, by its nature, is new. Ergo, technology, at least in the sense that we are referring to here, is disruptive. Of course, the entire point of technology is that the benefits of using it outweigh the detriments (including disruption). And the disruption it causes frequently diminishes over time as people get used to the new thing. So simply saying, "it's disruptive" is not a sufficient reason to dismiss it.As for the Player vs. GM idea, a GM that automatically assumes that technology is inherently disruptive is equally so.Nobody to my knowledge has ever made this claim.While your statement is correct in general, I think you're changing definitions of "disruptive" here. The original meaning in this conversation was "disruptive at the table" or "does it disrupt the game".
As far as the "which is better: digital vs. paper" argument, all I can say is "I pity the poor GM who has to read my handwriting."
Any new technology is going to require people to learn how to use it. Until such time as they have learned the new technology, people are going to make mistakes and do things slower than they did before the new technology. Taking more time and making more mistakes at the gaming table is frequently disruptive to the game. This is not a complaint. This is an explanation of the nature of the beast.
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Any new technology is going to require people to learn how to use it. Until such time as they have learned the new technology, people are going to make mistakes and do things slower than they did before the new technology. Taking more time and making more mistakes at the gaming table is frequently disruptive to the game. This is not a complaint. This is an explanation of the nature of the beast.
True, but not everyone is new to the technology. Some of us are very adept at using it. All I ask is we are given the benefit of the doubt until we demonstrate disruptive behavior. This is true of any gaming aid, technology item, etc
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May I jog your memory?As for the Player vs. GM idea, a GM that automatically assumes that technology is inherently disruptive is equally so.Nobody to my knowledge has ever made this claim.
You clearly focused on the wrong section of my post, then.
Electronic devices at the table:
Anyone who knows me knows that I'm glued to my phone. If I have two minutes to spare I'm either 1) on Google News, 2) reading the forums, 3) checking the weather, 4) perusing Instagram, 5) texting, 6) SnapChatting, 7) researching character ideas, or 8) checking my teeth in its reflection. Furthermore, I wholeheartedly endorse having a phone/tablet/laptop over lugging 50 pounds of books. I almost exclusively purchase PDFs myself, and I even purchased PDFs of hardbacks I already own just so I could show (using my phone) that my characters were legal. If I made the claim that I was anti-electronic devices, I'd be a hypocrite. I have never made such a claim.
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There does seem to be two new ways that players are disruptive that can be linked directory to Hero Lab. First are those who believe that Hero Lab expansions are a legal source for PFS. Secondly are those who believe that Hero Lab's text is the correct one and that if there is a difference that is only because Hero Lab has the correct errated text. I do imagine that there is a large over lap of these two groups. Given that these people do exist, the question becomes is Hero Lab taking the proper precautions to minimize the size of these groups?
There does seem to be two new ways that players are disruptive that can be linked directory to Hero Lab. First are those who believe that Hero Lab expansions are a legal source for PFS. Secondly are those who believe that Hero Lab's text is the correct one and that if there is a difference that is only because Hero Lab has the correct errated text. I do imagine that there is a large over lap of these two groups. Given that these people do exist, the question becomes is Hero Lab taking the proper precautions to minimize the size of these groups?
Why should HeroLab do so? They're not marketing and selling exclusively to PFS players - they're selling to Pathfinder players in general. While I think they've gone to some nice efforts for PFS-friendliness, I would be pretty annoyed at intrusive efforts to tell me that their own product is secondary.
Telling players what sources are legal is the Society's job - and I think it generally does fine in that regard.
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Any new technology is going to require people to learn how to use it. Until such time as they have learned the new technology, people are going to make mistakes and do things slower than they did before the new technology. Taking more time and making more mistakes at the gaming table is frequently disruptive to the game. This is not a complaint. This is an explanation of the nature of the beast.True, but not everyone is new to the technology. Some of us are very adept at using it. All I ask is we are given the benefit of the doubt until we demonstrate disruptive behavior. This is true of any gaming aid, technology item, etc
Yes, but this can actually perpetuate the problem, or at least, the perceived problem.
For example:
Player A picks up Hero Lab. The program is new to him and his proficiency is low, and he may not understand certain concepts about it such as the fact it isn't a legal PFS source. So initially, he is disruptive at the table with the product. Eventually his proficiency with the product increases and his misconceptions about it are cleared up, and this no longer becomes a source of disruption. That is, until Player B then gets Hero Lab and the whole cycle starts all over again. If these cycles continue to happen periodically, it can create the perception that Hero Lab is constantly disrupting the game.
They have a PFS filter on Herolabs, I'm not sure how correct it is, on account of not playing in PFS, but it is there, I've used it before for fun.
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There does seem to be two new ways that players are disruptive that can be linked directory to Hero Lab. First are those who believe that Hero Lab expansions are a legal source for PFS. Secondly are those who believe that Hero Lab's text is the correct one and that if there is a difference that is only because Hero Lab has the correct errated text. I do imagine that there is a large over lap of these two groups. Given that these people do exist, the question becomes is Hero Lab taking the proper precautions to minimize the size of these groups?Why should HeroLab do so? They're not marketing and selling exclusively to PFS players - they're selling to Pathfinder players in general. While I think they've gone to some nice efforts for PFS-friendliness, I would be pretty annoyed at intrusive efforts to tell me that their own product is secondary.
Telling players what sources are legal is the Society's job - and I think it generally does fine in that regard.
Hero Lab does tell you the PFS legal sources for your character. Nowhere does it list Hero Lab as being one of those sources.
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Yes, but this can actually perpetuate the problem, or at least, the perceived problem.For example:
Player A picks up Hero Lab. The program is new to him and his proficiency is low, and he may not understand certain concepts about it such as the fact it isn't a legal PFS source. So initially, he is disruptive at the table with the product. Eventually his proficiency with the product increases and his misconceptions about it are cleared up, and this no longer becomes a source of disruption. That is, until Player B then gets Hero Lab and the whole cycle starts all over again. If these cycles continue to happen periodically, it can create the perception that Hero Lab is constantly disrupting the game.
I don't see how this is any different, really, than getting a relatively new player at the table in the first place. Chances are they'll have some problems with rules if new to PF, they'll have trouble understanding the character if playing a Pregen of a class they've never worked with before. They may even have trouble distinguishing between whether d20pfsrd.org is an official source or not.
Keeping it away just means there's another barrier to people becoming proficient with it when what we should want is for each player's transition to be quick and efficient.
Hero Lab does tell you the PFS legal sources for your character. Nowhere does it list Hero Lab as being one of those sources.
Yeah, it's one of those nice efforts (helps you make sure your core character remains just core) and it's non-obtrusive.
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Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento
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People are going to use archives of nethys or D20SRD or HL and think it is ok. That is a failure of those of us who know better to educate the community. It is not a failure of those sites and products nor is it reason to condemn those sites or products.
What this discussion really comes down to is this, will some GM's really be allowed to blanket ban players for no other reasons than an irrational dislike of a single program? Can I also blanket kick players because I dislike the format of the PCGen character sheet? Where precisely does this end?
Since the blanket ban apparently resulted from a specific incident that culminated a string of incidents, and he has recognized several helpful uses of Hero Lab, it isn't actually an irrational dislike. Just not a universally shared or popular dislike.
(This is not an endorsement of Nefreet's position. I understand it but do not share it. But lets keep accusations of insanity out of this thread please.)
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Yes, but this can actually perpetuate the problem, or at least, the perceived problem.For example:
Player A picks up Hero Lab. The program is new to him and his proficiency is low, and he may not understand certain concepts about it such as the fact it isn't a legal PFS source. So initially, he is disruptive at the table with the product. Eventually his proficiency with the product increases and his misconceptions about it are cleared up, and this no longer becomes a source of disruption. That is, until Player B then gets Hero Lab and the whole cycle starts all over again. If these cycles continue to happen periodically, it can create the perception that Hero Lab is constantly disrupting the game.
I don't see how this is any different, really, than getting a relatively new player at the table in the first place. Chances are they'll have some problems with rules if new to PF, they'll have trouble understanding the character if playing a Pregen of a class they've never worked with before. They may even have trouble distinguishing between whether d20pfsrd.org is an official source or not.
Keeping it away just means there's another barrier to people becoming proficient with it when what we should want is for each player's transition to be quick and efficient.
d20pfsrd.org does not charge you to access all of its contents. I have to wonder how many people walked out in a huff and never came back because they thought that buying a Hero Lab expansion was good enough.
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Since we're now griping about tablets in general - the one thing that I quite nearly can't stand is when a player decides to start playing 'theme music' from their tablet that (to them) matches what is going on in the game.
Wow do I hate that.
Yup. That goes for 'funny' sound effects, too.
Now, if a GM wants to build a playlist for the session, and the table is isolated enough that it won't bother other tables, fine.
But a player doing it is almost always annoying. Not to mention distracting. And often disruptive. Especially when it comes with "hang on, I've got the perfect noise for this situation!"
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I had to try and run a game next to a guy running a Call of Cthulhu game at the local store's game night not too long ago and he was playing music loud enough I had to raise my voice so my table could hear me over it. That was annoying. To the point where when I saw that he took a break I had a talk with him.
Since we're now griping about tablets in general - the one thing that I quite nearly can't stand is when a player decides to start playing 'theme music' from their tablet that (to them) matches what is going on in the game.
Wow do I hate that.
Yup. That goes for 'funny' sound effects, too.
Now, if a GM wants to build a playlist for the session, and the table is isolated enough that it won't bother other tables, fine.
But a player doing it is almost always annoying. Not to mention distracting. And often disruptive. Especially when it comes with "hang on, I've got the perfect noise for this situation!"
This is why I try not to use music when playing at a store, unless it is fairly empty.
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will some GM's really be allowed to blanket ban players for no other reasons than an irrational dislikeI don't think anyone falls under this category, so that's a moot point.
Well, I suppose that depends on the perspective of the individual person. Some people feel your previous* ban on Hero Labs at your table is irrational.
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Since we're now griping about tablets in general - the one thing that I quite nearly can't stand is when a player decides to start playing 'theme music' from their tablet that (to them) matches what is going on in the game.
Wow do I hate that.
I do that on occasion, well not theme music, but sound effect from Syrinscape. I love using the wilhelm scream.
Edit: I would like to add that I don't do this in open rooms, and mostly as a GM.
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Venture-Agent, Minnesota—Minneapolis
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Is only a piece of Pi enough, or are we going to be irrational about that?
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Venture-Agent, Minnesota
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Is only a piece of Pi enough, or are we going to be irrational about that?
^ This is how I get through most games, by consulting my very own human calculator math nerd boyfriend!
I wholly endorse any solution that involves both puns and pie. I'm also happy to endorse any solution that involves pi, but only if others calculate it.
Hmm
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Is only a piece of Pi enough, or are we going to be irrational about that?
I approve.*
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Is only a piece of Pi enough, or are we going to be irrational about that?I approve.*
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You would, naturally.
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Its not quoting rules materials where I question it, its the output.I've seen a velociraptor animal companion with a +28 acrobatics (because the circumstance bonus for high speed got added on without anything saying it was just for jumping)
While I trust your statement that it did this at that time, it doesn't do so currently. Circumstantial bonuses or penalties are put in small text under the skill or save.
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Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento
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Just because you disagree with them doesn't make them irrational. Please stop name-calling, he said for the second time.Saying someone's reasons are irrational is not the same as saying someone is crazy. I choose my words very carefully. I cannot keep you from misinterpreting those words but that is not under my control.
No, it really is. The fact that Lamplighter called you on irrational, and you immediately defended yourself by saying "Hey, at least I didn't say he was crazy" simply reinforces that point.
You are saying they are acting against reason. Further, labeling opinions you don't like as irrational even after some has explained their reasons is a form of silencing.
You can say that what he did was not allowed, or you can say that what he did was out of proportion to the provocation, but when you start saying "his experiences can't rationally provoke the feelings he is feeling" you are either calling him a liar or insane.
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will some GM's really be allowed to blanket ban players for no other reasons than an irrational dislikeI don't think anyone falls under this category, so that's a moot point.Well, I suppose that depends on the perspective of the individual person. Some people feel your previous* ban on Hero Labs at your table is irrational.
"Recanted" is not the correct word (and neither is "irrational"). I still hold the belief that HeroLab is disruptive (and I still have reasons and experiences that support that belief). But after hearing that tomorrow's Blog would not be in my favor, it's best if I come to terms with it now rather than hold a grudge or continue a losing battle.
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Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento
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"Recanted" is not the correct word (and neither is "irrational"). I still hold the belief that HeroLab is disruptive (and I still have reasons and experiences that support that belief). But after hearing that tomorrow's Blog would not be in my favor, it's best if I come to terms with it now rather than hold a grudge or continue a losing battle.will some GM's really be allowed to blanket ban players for no other reasons than an irrational dislikeI don't think anyone falls under this category, so that's a moot point.Well, I suppose that depends on the perspective of the individual person. Some people feel your previous* ban on Hero Labs at your table is irrational.
I will totally laugh if it is in your favor after all... :)
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Nah, I just don't drink, so someone is going to have to take all these beers people offer me.
That's unfortunate, I feel I owe you a drink for the awesome job you did running Serpents Rise at Paizocon last year.
I really hope that status quo is maintained with the upcoming ruling/clarification or whatever it ends up being. I have no problem with people using herolab in the games I run, but I really prefer not to have to handle someone's electronic device. I want to be able to give character sheets a look over if I feel it's nessecarry (I've only done a quick audit on a character once or twice, but I would feel uncomfortable if I had to look at it on someone's tablet)
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Every game I DM I look over every players character. It is hardly an audit. I glance quickly at ability scores, then the classes, feats, and finally magical items.
I want to know what silliness they may be capable of as when things start to happen I prefer to be on top of what does or does nto happen to their characters.
If a character needs to make a check and I do not want them to know what they are checking against. I will quickly ask for their character and have them roll and do the modifiers myself.
No one ever fights on this and usually just hands me their device. I often have to ask where to find what I am looking for as some of the character design stuff is in different areas.
If they did not want me touching their device, fine. You show me what I am looking for. That has never happened and I am on 85 games run.
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Perfectly legal character sheet Solves the problem in the incredibly unlikely event its a problem...
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Perfectly legal character sheet Solves the problem in the incredibly unlikely event its a problem...
So one can wipe their... Okay, NOT going there. Coffee... need coffee.
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Perfectly legal character sheet Solves the problem in the incredibly unlikely event its a problem...So one can wipe their... Okay, NOT going there. Coffee... need coffee.
Putting the TP in the TPK.
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That's unfortunate, I feel I owe you a drink for the awesome job you did running Serpents Rise at Paizocon last year.
Nah, I just don't drink, so someone is going to have to take all these beers people offer me.
Ha! You're just lucky you weren't at the local table I ran. TPKed the whole lot. :)
(The RinCon table did better, I only managed to KO the Professional.)